Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

1505153555676

Comments

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Lastly, I know there's people screaming that they only got 15k on the tire, but, I take that with a grain of salt. My tires are wearing normal. I have two friends with Ody Tourers that are on target to get over 40k on their tires. Every tire forum you go to has people complaining about premature tire wear. There's bunches of reasons that a tire could wear prematurely. I don't think these doughnut filled pax tires have a monopoly on that complaint."

    Admittedly the claims of premature tire wear are anecdotal, and as such, not even remotely scientific or indicative of what the real world scenario is for any given vehicle. That said, I do find it troubling that so many folks are complaining about the lifespan of their PAX tires on the Honda Odyssey. Think about it this way, I've been following minivan related forums for years and I've never heard a single premature tire wear complaint from any non-PAX equipped van, and there's a heck of a lot more of them than there are of the PAX vans.

    You brought up a point earlier about the problem not being the tires themselves per-se, but something with the alignment or the suspension. Well, to me at least that comes back to the PAX tires as they are so heavy compared to comparable GFTs that they require a different suspension.

    The way it looks to me, there are a number of different theoretical possibilities here:
    1) Given that PAX tires are more difficult to manufacture (I think I read that somewhere but am not positive), could it be that minute flaws in construction cause their tread life to be "hit and miss" with some tires going the distance and some not?
    2) Given that PAX tires are more difficult to mount, could it be that they may be prone to damage of some sort during the mounting process, damage that might reduce their life?
    3) PAX wheel and tire assemblies can weigh as much as twice that of conventional GFTs (certainly 50% more than even a heavy set). Could they be so heavy that even with the upgraded Odyssey suspension, the tires simply overpower the suspension, effectively forcing it out of alignment during some stages of the driving regimen?
    4) Could the special Odyssey PAX suspension be so difficult to correctly align that many vehicles escape the factory with a bad alignment?

    I of course don't know whether a problem even exists, however, there seem to be enough complaints that from an empirical perspective to at least warrant further research. If in fact it is found that a higher percentage (but not all) of PAX shod vehicles exhibit premature tire wear, then a closer look at the above four points might warrant a look-see too.

    Thoughts?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • I of course don't know whether a problem even exists, however, there seem to be enough complaints that from an empirical perspective to at least warrant further research. If in fact it is found that a higher percentage (but not all) of PAX shod vehicles exhibit premature tire wear, then a closer look at the above four points might warrant a look-see too.

    I'd be a arrogant to say it's not a possibility. But with lack of hard data (which no one seems to have) I tend to think that it's somewhat of an illusion amplified by the fact that these tires are more expensive then most and harder to service. It gets people ticked off right from the get-go. Then you add premature wear (even 10%) and people are immediately searching the internet for others to share their frustration. In most cases, someone gets premature wear on their tires and they probably just quietly get another set, get their wheels aligned, and grumble in private.

    I am a car lover and I read forums and car mags all the time. I can tell you I see this type of stuff all the time (not just here). These forums would make you think everyone is getting poor tire wear on all cars. Do a google on "premature tire wear", etc. and your screen will fill up. It's not just pax tires.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    We are approaching 31,000 miles on our 2006 Ody Touring, and I project we'll get 36~38,000 miles before the PAX tires will require replacement. And the wear is pretty even on all 4 tires. Dealer quoted me $1300 to replace all 4 tires. Looks like I'll be replacing them before yearend, just in time for some snow!

    We also have a 2005 Acura RL with standard Pilot HX MXM tires and they are not that impressive in terms of grip and road noise, but the tire wear has been excellent.

    There were lots of rumors flying around months ago that the new Accord was going to be available with PAX, but Honda's decision to not offer them on their flagship speaks volumes about the future prospect of the PAX system. It's also telling that none of the European makes in the US are offering PAX. To my knowledge, no new 2008 models offers PAX as standard or optional equipment, other than the holdovers from prior years.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 780
    Let's face it--the PAX experiment is a failure and we PAX owners are left holding the bag. I'd be OK with that IF Honda hadn't given me bad information. I'm not saying that Honda (not to be confused with the dealer) lied about PAX. I'm merely saying that virtually everything I was told about PAX turned out to be incorrect.

    Cost: "Only 10-15% more". Try twice as much as the BEST replacement tires available.

    Service availability: "Honda dealers will be able to service your tires". Try "Maybe one Honda dealer in most major cities will be able to service your tires".

    Security: "With PAX, you can rest assured that you won't get stuck out on the road because of a flat or road hazard." Try "As long as your tire goes flat within a few miles of a major metropolitan area during normal business hours, you might be able to find a PAX dealer who actually has a tire in stock. Otherwise, you're screwed!"

    Finally, the "Don't buy the freakin' tires" argument doesn't hold water because the only way to buy the freakin' Odyssey Touring model was with the freakin' tires. I could have (and would have) bought a different van had I known the truth about PAX. I don't hold a grudge against Honda for the mistake they made, but I will hold a grudge against them if they fail to fix the problem. If Honda doesn't step up and replace the tires, my third Odyssey will be my last.
  • Actualsize, can you weigh-in with any information on which third party wheels will accept the TPMS sensors and which tire/wheel combinations will give the correct speedometer readings and a safe/good ride. I have a '05 touring odyssey.

    Thanks,

    ncdoctor :sick:
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    Ok, shipo, here it is: the OEM Michelins on our '99 Odyssey lasted a crummy 29K. The PAX on our '05 are still going strong at 36K.

    In fairness, the former van was driven mostly in town while most of the miles on the latter have been over the road.
  • OK. After talking about this on this forum (and others), I came to a conclusion. Maybe we need to stop talking and do something about this. Not about this stupid argument about cost, but the REAL argument about lack of support services across the country. This is clearly a problem and I believe Honda is liable for this mistep.

    I have a friend who used to be a defense lawyer for one of the "big 3". He's now on the other side fighting against car companies. I ran these scenerio's buy him and discussed it. He's aware of complaints and also watched the class action suit that was filed in March and recently failed. He agreed that the strongest argument is the one about the lack of adequate service facilities. In fact, he thought it was a VERY STRONG argument and agreed to look into it further if I could get individuals he could interview.

    Anyone angry enough and fed up enough to spend some time being interviewed? If so, click on my name at the top of this message, select "Visit My Carspace" near the upper left corner, then click on "Become a friend of SpicyMikey" and send me a message with your email address so we can coorespond.
  • bigdadi118bigdadi118 Posts: 1,207
    I found Yokohama AVID TRZ (Standard Touring All-Season) is the great tire. I will buy it again.
    For snow tires the BS Blizzard is the best choice.
  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    Regarding availability, I live in a town of 100,000 people in the middle of the corn fields in Illinois, and there are 3 Honda dealerships within an hour of me that can service PAX, including the one in my hometown. If I push the envelope out to Chicago and St. Louis (120-150 miles), there are at least 10 dealerships that can help me. And there are also independent Michelin dealers that can service PAX. I realize availability may be poor in some parts of the US, but it is not really an issue with me.

    From a safety standpoint, I am also happy with PAX.

    Tread life is just okay. I know I won't get to 40,000 miles, but I will hit the mid-30K range. I can accept that. I'm also totally baffled why some people are only getting 15K or 20K. Something is awry with those cases, obviously. I presume they are in the great minority, otherwise we would be seeing much more than the 5 or 10 complaints on these Edmunds boards. There would be a government recall/inquiry if the volume of cases reached any sort of credible level, given the fact that tens of thousands of Touring models have been sold between the 2005-2006-20007 model years.

    My main beef is with the total lack of choice and the monopoly I face with supply and demand. Being at the mercy of the dealer is always such a treat ("Mr. Stiles, bend over and say ahhhhh......"). I wish the cost of the tires would be more elastic due to competition, but everyone seems to want around $325, out the door, per tire. There isn't exactly a free market system at work here.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Posts: 780
    "middle of the corn fields in Illinois" Scott AFB?

    I gave a real-life example of the availability issue a few hundred posts back. Suffice to say, I was driving cross country from AZ to VA and had a blow out about 100 miles outside of El Paso. I couldn't find a replacement tire for more than 400 miles along my route and had to wait for it to be overnighted. Fortunately, it was on my BMW 330 that my brother was driving for me. I was driving the Ody. The BMW had a spare which lasted the 400 miles to Ft Worth. Had it been the Ody, my cargo would have been left to rot while I waited days(?) for a replacement tire. (Because I was curious, I verified after the fact that there were no PAX dealers in that area).
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 124
    Actualsize, can you weigh-in with any information on which third party wheels will accept the TPMS sensors and which tire/wheel combinations will give the correct speedometer readings and a safe/good ride. I have a '05 touring odyssey.

    I don't have that information at my fingertips - especially the bit about specific third-party wheels. The aftermarket is still figuring out how to deal with TPMS sensors and wheel upgrades. I'll look into it. I'm going to the SEMA (Specialty Equipment Marketing Association) show in Las Vegas in 3 weeks, and I plan on grilling all the wheel makers and TPMS sensor providers I can think of on this issue.

    If you can't wait that long, you could always look at the 16" tire size on non-touring Odysseys and use that (P235/65R16, 103T I think - not sure about the "P"). The rolling diameter is the same as the PAX. Buying a set of 16" Odyssey wheels from Honda - go straight to the parts department and avoid talking to the service guys - is doable, but probably pricey. Still, it's probably less than a PAX tire and its a one-time purchase that will get you factory-looking wheels and access to reasonably priced, long wearing, freely available tires now and in the future.

    Take your new wheels to a third-party tire store to get them mounted so you don't have to hear the whole warranty violation speech from the Honda service writers. You probably ought to buy 4 new TPMS nuts (they're a one-time use part) when you buy those wheels, so that they can be properly tightened by the tire store when you do the swap.

    The tire store might have some of these, but they might not.

    BTW: If you want to figure out the equivalent sizes when doing tire swaps and changing wheel diameters, use the following formula:

    (width*aspect ratio*2/25.4)+ wheel diameter = overall diameter. For a 235/65R16 tire, this would be...
    (235*0.65*2/25.4)+16 = 28.0 inches. Anything within a couple of tenths of this would work. NOTE: the oddball metric PAX size doesn't work with this formula.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 124
    However, the argument about cost is a weak one and I guess I'm just getting tired of hearing people complain about it... ...What would it cost for comparable non-pax tires? Don't forget these pax tires are 18", the OEM tires on the not Touring Ody is 16".

    This is where we disagree. Cost is a reasonable issue.

    First, PAX tires aren't comparable to anything else. They're not 18" either - they're 460mm. Close to 18", yes, but not interchangeable.

    Second, 18-ish" tires are great for a sports car, but I think they are a negative on a comfort-oriented family vehicle like a minivan.

    Third, the cost of tires with a larger wheel-diameter (not overall diameter - just wheel diameter) and lower aspect ratio (needed to keep the overall diameter constant) isn't appropriate for this market segment either. A minivan shouldn't have ultra-pricey tires on it - of any type.

    Fourth, PAX tires are more expensive that comparably-sized 18's (if you could find them) - especially considering the cost of the required gel-packs and additional charges for mounting and balancing most are subject to with PAX.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • smlycatsmlycat Posts: 23
    I have purchased a set of EX wheels for my Touring model. I am waiting for the '08 Touring models to arrive whereon an a 17" wheels will be offered. The PAX tires will be optional.

    Anybody interested in what the new 17" wheels look like? Email me smlycat1@aol.com.
  • Sorry, I was expressing that in the context of a law suit. Of course price matters in the decision process. However, from a "responsibility" perspective, it's weak argument. A buyer can't complain the tires cost more. The price was right there and easy to obtain. If you bought the car without doing the research then you have no one to blame but yourself -- a judge would conclude -- and I'd agree. You just spend $40k on a very expensive vehicle. PAY ATTENTION to what you're buying.

    However, there's no reasonable way anyone could have known there is no service centers within 500 miles of certain areas of this country. I think Honda and Michelin REALLY screwed the buyer there. In fact, I think they are legally liable for that one. That's where a class action lawsuit should be started. As mentioned earlier, I have a friend who worked for Ford as a defense lawyer. He agrees with me and would research it. Unfortunately, I live in Florida and the cost of the tires and service facilities is fine. It's not a fight I can initiate. It would need to be started by someone who is directly hurt by this fact.

    If anyone is interested let me know. I'll get you talking with them. They're a law firm in California.
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 124
    A quick run of the numbers suggests the tire size will be 235/60R17.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • cstilescstiles Posts: 465
    A class action requires the ability to prove that the universe of all Touring owners suffered damage, or at the very least, a substantial percentage of Touring owners suffered legal/financial damage. That's hurdle #1. Beyond that, the plaintiff must also prove that the defendant (Honda and Michelin) were legally liable of causing that damage. You have to prove both. Not easy to do.

    Availability is not really an issue for me. There are plenty of PAX-certified locations around me in Illinois. I was wrong, there are actually 4 (not 3) Honda dealers within 45 minutes of where I live that service PAX.
    And many more if I include Chicago and St. Louis. Sure, I could be driving in the boondocks and be screwed.

    In spite of the horror stories of some people being stranded and inconvenienced, I don't know if there is enough to support a class action. I know I don't fit the class from where I sit.

    But it doesn't change the fact that I'm still po'ed that I'm locked into PAX without much recourse. I checked with 5 dealers today, and one of them will change all 4 PAX tires for $1120 out the door. That's the cheapest of 5 dealers. The most expensive was $1359. So, the cost is definitely coming down.

    Successful class action? I just don't see it.

    Loss of customer goodwill for Honda? Absolutely.
  • I didn't say it was a slam dunk case. I just said that was the only thing you could blame Honda for.

    Actually it is a valid case. When you purchase tires it's reasonable to assume the manufacturer has established an adequate support network to service, repair, and replace them. You and I wouldn't be very good class reps because we are not necessarily experiencing the problem first hand. You can't sue for "anticipating" a hardship. There's a legal term for that but I don't know what it is. However, if a class action got rolling we could probably be allowed to join and would receive our share of the award.

    Having said that, you gotta give Michelin some credit for setting up this "overnight" policy where they will fly the tires anywhere in the 50 states within 24 hours. That's not as convenient as it could be, however, it might be seen as a good faith attempt by theh courts to remedy this "temporary" lack of servicable areas.

    Back to this cost issue (because I'm considering an 08 Ody with Pax). If you found a set of 4 for 1120 OTD, then what's the big problem. A set of decent 18" (no pax) touring tires is going to cost you close to $800. So it costs us an extra $320 for these special tires with this special runflat capability. Amotorize that over 2-3 years and it's peanuts. Again, I don't get that side of the argument AT ALL. I'm just concerned about getting service when I need it.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "(width*aspect ratio*2/25.4)+ wheel diameter = overall diameter. For a 235/65R16 tire, this would be...
    (235*0.65*2/25.4)+16 = 28.0 inches. Anything within a couple of tenths of this would work. NOTE: the oddball metric PAX size doesn't work with this formula."


    You don't actually need a formula with the 3 number PAX metric tire sizing. The first number (i.e. 235) is the section width in millimeters, the second number (i.e. 710) is the overall diameter of the tire, and the third number (i.e. 460) is the wheel diameter.

    All things considered, it is a far easier sizing methodology than the convoluted and utterly stupid (metric)/(%) R(inches). Errr, IMHO. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Back to this cost issue (because I'm considering an 08 Ody with Pax). If you found a set of 4 for 1120 OTD, then what's the big problem. A set of decent 18" (no pax) touring tires is going to cost you close to $800. So it costs us an extra $320 for these special tires with this special runflat capability. Amotorize that over 2-3 years and it's peanuts. Again, I don't get that side of the argument AT ALL."

    Once again I have to disagree here. You're trying to compare a set of minivan tires with a set of tires for a sport sedan, and that simply is not a valid comparison. If I did that then I'd be upset at the fact that I can buy a full set of premium tires (i.e. tires that outperform the Michelin LX4s that come on the Odyssey) for either of our minivans for a whopping $500 installed, while a set of premium rubber for my 530i SP could cost me as much as $1,400 installed. See the difference?

    What you should be comparing is the cost of a set of PAX tires for the Odyssey to a complete set of GFTs for competitive vehicles (i.e. Dodge Grand Caravan, Toyota Sienna,...). Unfortunately for the PAX tires, installed they easily cost two and a half times as much as a set of tires for the other vans, tires that have superior driving characteristics in every regard to the PAX tires.

    Granted the extra cost of the PAX tires isn't going to cause most folks who can afford an Odyssey Touring to take out a second mortgage on their home, but it is an issue none-the-less.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • cccompsoncccompson Posts: 2,388
    My take is a little different. The added safety of PAX is priceless and I don't have a problem paying more.

    However, the deception employed (10 to 15% more than conventional rubber) in selling PAX is inexcusable, especially since it persists to this day.

    On the availability issue: it was understandable in the first, maybe even the second, year. For it to still be a problem after 3 full years is simply pathetic.
Sign In or Register to comment.