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2009 Toyota Corolla

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Comments

  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Obviously, it didn't do enough to join the 1988 Corolla redesign.

    It wasn't any beauty queen, either. I used to see them once in a while. Definitely tried to enter the CRx market.

    Apparently, it didn't do too good. :sick:

    Supra was a phenomenal ride too. Not seeing those anymore either.

    People don't buy sporting Toyotas. Some things will never change. :(

    DrFill
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    No Elantra should pass $17k. Period. Know your market.

    A car with a mid-sized interior, heated leather seats, moonroof, deluxe sound system with XM, 16" alloys, ABS, six airbags, 4 wheel discs, heated power mirrors etc. etc. shouldn't list for much more than a Yaris that has much less feature content? Maybe you should stick to what you know.

    P.S. Actually, you can get an Elantra equipped like that for about $17k (or less) + T&L. But not a Corolla.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    I have driven several current-gen Corollas (mostly as rentals, and one test drive--see below). I've owned two (earlier gen) Corollas. When the 2003 Corolla debuted, I was quite excited because it looked like a great small car. The feeling lasted until I test-drove one. The driving position is very uncomfortable for many people--inlcuding me. (And I will not debate this fact here, since it's well documented in a number of professional reviews available on the Web.) So I was very disappointed. I have high hopes that this flaw will be fixed in the 2009 Corolla, and then I can consider it for my next new car. I want something that's small outside but roomy inside, fuel efficient, comfortable, reliable, decent-looking, safe, and a good value for long-term ownership. If the 2009 Corolla doesn't fit that description, I am ready to turn to other alternatives.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I don't know much, but I do know this. I know Elantra has left it's market, and the market has spoken.

    Really, Elantra is in the EXACT same market as the Corolla, except they attack it from angles.

    The last Elantra was successful because it was a great value, but to a price point. If you wanted a $15k car, everybody said look at Elantra. Now you can't do that. The car has changed. The mission has changed. :(

    You said it yourself. Midsized car. Nobody cares if it is now in the midsized class! Get rid of the bells and whistles that Hyundai can't sell, and sell it against the Corolla as a value. You point of no return is $16k.

    Corolla knows it's market better than anyone. It does exactly what is expected. People don't go to Toyota to buy a $17-18 Corolla. They just don't. I know from experience. Corolla is a $16k car.

    Hyundai has changed Elantra's mission, and it's just like changing the time slot of a good, fledgling show. Hyundai has killed all the momentum the old Elantra developed, by Changing the idea of the car. It's not a car for all people. It can't fight Corolla at $15k and Jetta at $18k.

    It's a Hyundai! It's about time Hyundai stuck to what it knows. :surprise:

    And when you find out what that is, let me know, because I'm drawing a complete blank! :P

    DrFill
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    Nobody cares if it is now in the midsized class!

    Nobody cares if they can by a car that is compact on the outside but has the interior room of a mid-sized car, at the price of some sub-compacts?? That is some great sales-ese, drfill. But wrong. Read the reviews. The roomy interior of the Elantra is universally praised.

    But rather than more competitor-bashing, let's talk about the 2009 Corolla. I'd love it if it had a mid-sized interior but a compact exterior, like the Elantra. I'd love it if it were priced like an Elantra--$13.5k-14.5k depending on locale, before negotiating, with full power, ABS, 6 airbags, 6-speaker stereo with satellite radio, etc. I'd love it if Toyota increased its warranty (fat chance there). I'd love a comfortable driving position. Other cars in the Corolla's class offer all of this and more. Soon we'll see how Toyota has responded.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The market likes it, but it is behind the competition in power, safety features, and the driving position needs work.

    The trunk and back seat are pretty good already. The car doesn't need to get much bigger. The rear end of the car is fine. Materials are very good, especially after you sit in the Yaris, you notice a difference. And obviously economy isn't an issue.

    Nobody is asking the Corolla to become some sex symbol either. So things aren't that bad. ;)

    DrFill
  • mcmanusmcmanus Posts: 121
    Toyota/Corolla loyalists will continue to come with evolutionary updates, but what will it take to convince others to buy a Corolla? That's the question Toyota needs to ask. This delayed introduction of the new model puts more pressure on Toyota to "hit a homerun".

    What would it take for Corolla to be deemed "best in class" by both the media and consumers?

    My guesses:

    1. Eliminate the silly shortcomings (like the awkward driving position) that are easy to fix.

    2. Offer more body styles (coupe, hatchback, wagon, sport).

    3. More power while maintaining economy.

    4. More room (Americans aren't getting smaller).

    5. More features and options.

    6. Better handling and sportier feel.

    7. Keep the price in line with the best of the competition.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Can't think of a time when they were, except in sales.

    The main flaws are driving position, safety features, and upgrade power. ;)

    I also expect telescopic steering, maybe a power seat on the LE. I wouldn't expect Smart Key.

    Everything else is for niche makers to cover.

    DrFill
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    As they say, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". The car sold very well. Why it didn't continue in the stable is beyond me. Toyota Motor Sales USA does things sometimes that don't make sense to us. I guess that's why we are on the sales floor and not in the boardroom.
    ;)
    Mackabee
  • sandman46sandman46 Posts: 1,798
    My '07 rental had mushy brakes just like our previous 4 Toyota products and that's a shame. What can they do to get the brakes to have a more linear and confident feel? After test driving one the day before I bought my '06 Civic, the brake issue knocked the Corolla off my short list.

    The Sandman :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    What's wrong with the Corolla's power? It's already one of the quickest cars in its class. It's got enough power for its mission in life. Now, if they fatten up the new Corolla, then it will need more power just to maintain status quo. But more power for power's sake it doesn't need. Focus any engine tweaks on better fuel economy if anything--that will sell LOTS of cars, and will differentiate the Corolla in its class. Let the other guys duke it out in the power game.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    Maybe adding 4-wheel discs like some other cars in the class have would help?
  • cubssoxscubssoxs Posts: 139
    All compact cars seem that they are getting bigger. But now alot of car makers are coming out with more subcompact models. For example, Toyota has the Yaris, Nissan has the Versa, Honda has the Fit.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The Civic has 140HP.

    The revised Toyota 1.8 (see xD) offers 126HP (at this time), but will be geared more for economy in the Corolla.

    Corolla doesn't sell on HP, like Camry. But the going rate in this class is 140-160HP for the BASE engine. Also considering the Civic is at 32/40 (2007) in economy, with 18 more HP, Toyota will get the engines up to date.

    I think Honda going to 140HP on even the DX Civic caught Toyota off-guard, while maintaining high economy. :surprise:

    Also consider the 2.0 engine will power the Toyota Blade (Matrix) replacement, and the Mazda3 has been benchmarked (widely reported) for that vehicle, and the 3 goes over 150HP, a power increase is likely.

    My guess is the 1.8 goes to 130HP, EPA is 29/39, which should give it a slight lead over the 2008 Civic numbers.
    It could gain that 1-2 MPG with a CVT or 5-speed, and Dual VVTi.

    Word of the 2.0 Valvematic complicates possibilities.

    Toyota knows it's compact vehicles sell on economy more than power, but the Blade would definitely become more competitive with the 2.0. And a 130HP Corolla is not a long-term, solution given the competitive market it competes in.

    But Toyota history doesn't favor two engines for the Corolla, as this cuts profit margins in building more model/trim variations for the car, and with the successful formula for the current car.

    Blade may only get the 2.0, and use it as a step-up vehicle from the Corolla.

    The slightly upgraded 1.8 could be a hold-over engine until the 2.0 can be fully implemented next year. It would probably take 12-18 months to have enough 2.0 for all vehicles. The xD and Corolla maybe all 2.0 by the 2010 model year. :confuse:

    It would make sense for Toyota to use one engine in two compact vehicles (xD and Yaris), and the other in two (Corolla and Blade).

    OR Toyota can add the 2.0 to the xB, without losing much power, but gaining economy (and going to a 5-speed tranny or CVT for 2010)?

    I'm rambling with speculation, I know. :blush:

    DrFill
  • mcmanusmcmanus Posts: 121
    As it stands today Civic is my pick, unless saving money is important then I'd settle for a Corolla. Both have good local dealerships, which in this area leaves Mazda 3out of the picture. :cry:

    IME Civic is the overall "best in class" with Mazda 3 being the runner-up, but more sporty, "grown-up feel" choice. As I already have a Toyota to service, I'd rather stay with Scion/Toyota.

    Currently (with incentive/rebate) Corolla is about $2000 cheaper than Civic, which is significant in this price range. In fact TMV of Corolla is roughly the same or higher than Yaris!? With less features, less power, lower price, quirks, and older design Corolla isn't really competative with Civic.

    I don't see how Toyota could release a new Corolla that is inferior to Civic yet higher priced higher. Yet I don't see Toyota pricing the new Corolla close to Yaris either. So the squeeze is on Toyota to produce something at least on par with Civic.

    But consider that as the current Civic version ages, the deals street prices should soften a bit. Which is why I see the pressure being on Toyota even more to produce a "best in class" Corolla (that will no doubt have "stiff" street pricing the first year or two).
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Doc - extremely slight correction, but since you're very into the numbers; the xD with Dual VVTi is rated at:

    128hp @ 6000 (not 126)
    125 foot pounds @ 4400
    EPA rating: 27/33

    All numbers most current EPA ratings standards.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I can give you 6 reasons to buy 2008 Corolla over a Civic:

    1. Lower prices/incentives
    2. Bigger back seat
    3. Larger trunk
    4. Split-folding rear seats on all models(Have to get a Civic EX)
    5. Trac and VSC is available (Hard to find, but I've seen them)
    6. Conventional Dash design (Civic's is a deal-breaker for some drivers)

    The Corolla is more competitive than you think. I have, personally, brought many Corolla owners into the fold comparing the two. ;)

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I was referencing only the Corolla's numbers. Since I didn't see a big difference, I didn't bother to make a distinction. I did know of the 128HP. I actually wrote 128 first, than edited to the lower number.

    It would've killed my flow (I was rollin'!) to put two different sets of numbers out thur. :blush:

    DrFill
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    The Civic is not at 32/40 as you say. The Corolla has about the same mpg as a Civic despite being an older engine, but the Civic has more power.
    I think mpg is more important than power in a Corolla. If the Corolla can get better mileage than the Civic with around the same or even lower HP than the Civic, it will be more important than being faster than a Civic or exactly matching HP with a Civic.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    So excuse my typo. The Corolla (2007) was 32/41 or 30/38 (man/auto). They offer virtually the same economy, but the Civic has 14HP more.

    Corolla is not just lower on steam than Civic, but it's lower vs all competitors. That can be a problem to address with a redesign. Staying at the bottom doesn't sound like a plan to me. Toyota's Dual VVTi can add power AND economy. ;)

    DrFill
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    The point is, the Corolla can get by just fine on 126 hp vs. Civic since Corolla is much lighter than the Civic. As long as the Corolla's weight stays down, no more power is needed. If it bulks up, then power will need to increase a bit to maintain status quo.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The Corolla will gain 150-200 lbs., with adding safety features and upgraded crash protection.

    And it will make a more competitive car, on paper. Fortunately, Corolla has already has the people behind it. :)

    DrFill
  • mcmanusmcmanus Posts: 121
    Doc,

    I have a Sienna for hauling, have never used the fold down seats, let alone split fold in my 626 in 6 years.

    The Corolla back seat is 2 inches wider, but has 1 inch less leg room (Consumers Report). I'd call it a wash in terms of back seat room.

    Dash design is probably an individual thing, most people learn to adapt to such (like center dash on Yaris) quickly (Edmunds owner comments).

    When similarly equipped with additional air bags, ABS, VSC, and mats the price difference between Corolla LE and Civic LX (after incentives/rebates) is only $500 (Edmunds TMV), yet Corolla lacks remote entry. And Civic upgrades to 5A from 4A, higher owner satisfaction (Consumer Report), shorter/less mushy braking (Consumer Report/above comments), and more comfortable driving position (well documented).

    I'm eager to see what Toyota can do with the new Corolla, after six year its losing its grip on the competition.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    quality, resale, economy, are a wash with the two, so the only real differences are dynamic. Corolla doesn't have an issue with staisfaction, since sales are rising faster than Civic's.

    The Civic has a clear powertrain advantage, but is about 150lbs heavier.

    The Corolla and Civic are seperated more by mission than anything else. The Civic is sporty and more youthful, aggressive. The Corolla is softer, quieter, more conservative and genteel.

    DrFill
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    The LE has standard keyless remote. All this talk about horsepower is nonsense. Torque is what really matters. The two are pretty much equal in torque. The Corolla had better torque numbers until Honda went with the 1.8L then their torque numbers went up.
    Mackabee
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Year to date sales (June 2007) of Corolla are 202,221 as compared to 197,303 in June of 2006. You would think that a car in its last year of the current designe would be down but that's not the case. What's the Civic's year to date sales? ;)
    Mackabee
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Year to date Civic sales (June 2007) 173,800, with hybrids 190,941. Sales up to June of 2006: 165,056, with hybrids 180,801.
    :shades:
    Mackabee
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    I am sure $3+ a gallon gas and 40 mpg has something to do with that. ;)
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    I drive a rental Corolla and I found it had enough power as is. The engine needs to be replaced because it sounds loud and ugly when you try to use the available power.
    It was also not comfortable to sit and drive in. They need to address those issues before they worry about making it faster.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    not to mention the fact that the civic has no problems selling at the price point its at, and the corolla has more incentives and discounts.

    and just for kicks:

    reasons for buying the civic over the corolla.

    1.more efficient engine (gets similar mpg on a more powerful engine in a heavier chassis, a true testament to honda's engineering)

    2. Responsive, un-mushy braking.

    3. Better safety ratings and abs

    4. Handles worlds better, with much less body lean.

    5. highest end model give you disc brakes

    6. cooler styling. :P

    i know some of these things will be counteracted by the new corolla, but there are something that i don't think will change. (handling: it'll probably get better, but it wont be the benchmark like a few posters were asking in a few posts prior. When even car mags like car and driver state that the ride of the mazda 3 is a bit stiff, i doubt that toyota would want to get even remotely competative in that regard.)

    DrFill: the jetta can be had for 16k and offer much more content than the current corolla offers. Granted you pay for it with a loss in economy, but a 17k price tag saves you money on car payments, and gets you a longer warranty and the absolute best interior in the price range. Even the top level mazda 3 hatch can be had for less than 20k.
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