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2009 Toyota Corolla

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Price, reputation, price, reputation..then there's price and reputation.

    You look at this from the eyesight of a driving enthusiast, which is fine. Now if there are 500 others who have no interest at all in powertrain, suspension and handling and all they want is Dependability, Reliability and Price... nothing more. 4 doors and 4 wheels.is all they want to get from A to B then yes Toyota may lose the 12 enthusiasts but gain 12,000 others because the vehicle is priced right. In the end nothing matter except which vehicle makes more money. The rest is fanboi hoohaa and beauty contests. Just count the money at the end of the year and that's the winner.

    Toyota doesn't need to better any competition, it only hs to appeal to the most buyers. If they want to appeal to the more basic buyer that's fine, it's a HUGE market and there's enough for all the others. Let Mazda, Nissan and Honda fight for the enthusiasts Toyota has its hands full with Hyundai.

    BTW both the Civic and Corolla have similar safety features.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I guess we'll have to wait and see. From the Canadian site it appears that all the options are available. I can't see them offering it in the North but not in the South. For what reason would they do this?
  • jacksan1jacksan1 Posts: 504
    Price, reputation, price, reputation..then there's price and reputation.

    You look at this from the eyesight of a driving enthusiast, which is fine. Now if there are 500 others who have no interest at all in powertrain, suspension and handling and all they want is Dependability, Reliability and Price... nothing more. 4 doors and 4 wheels.is all they want to get from A to B then yes Toyota may lose the 12 enthusiasts but gain 12,000 others because the vehicle is priced right. In the end nothing matter except which vehicle makes more money. The rest is fanboi hoohaa and beauty contests. Just count the money at the end of the year and that's the winner.

    Toyota doesn't need to better any competition, it only hs to appeal to the most buyers. If they want to appeal to the more basic buyer that's fine, it's a HUGE market and there's enough for all the others. Let Mazda, Nissan and Honda fight for the enthusiasts Toyota has its hands full with Hyundai.

    BTW both the Civic and Corolla have similar safety features.


    I could not agree more, kdhspyder. One could even say that the Corolla's 41 years' successful run is precisely because Toyota ignores so-called auto enthusiasts.

    In fact, in the Japanese automotive world where I used to be in, there is a saying that no car that critics rave about ever sells. An overwhelming majority of the COTY Japan Car of the Year winners have historically been a major commercial flop. If I could short-sell a COTY JCY winner like a stock, I would be making oodles of money every year.
  • A Civic LX is hardly a performance car. Nobody buys a Civic LX because theyre car enthusiast.
    You're probably right with the COTY but only with respect to Toyotas who won it. As far as I know COTY award winners from Honda such as the Civic and Fit were hugely succesful.
  • A Civic LX is hardly a performance car or a driving enthusiast car. In some ways this present Corolla was better than the old Civic when it was first introduced. The Civic at that time was the best selling comapct and Toyota was compelled to produce a Corolla that would better it in every aspect and honestly, they have. Fast forward today and you see a Corolla that is way behind in terms of improement. About the doodads and junks maybe but not the essentials like drivetrain and suspension.
    BTW Civic has Active head restraint, Corolla has none.
  • I tested the 08 corolla the other day...not been in 1 for several years....ok but not competitive with the civic lx......at all....civic leases and sales are very competitive whereas here in FL you have the toyoguard and $700dealer fees...that is $1400 right off the top that is too much..much less all the other add-ons...I looked carefully at the 09 specs...bought an 08 civic and never looked back. Toyota is NOT at the edge the way it was back in 90's and early 2000's...disappointing since I think a lot of their products have been tops instead of just so-so like now....
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    OK, to understand your post...you compared a 6 y.o. model with a new model and found the new model to be better. That sounds like a very logical conclusion to draw, goood job. However to counter your argument about the pricing, here in the Central Atlantic region there are no such charges and the Corolla is far, far, far lower than a Civic, as in not even a contest. Consider this: the Civic was brand spanking new with all the latest features last year when it debuted....and all this year the 'outdated' Corolla has outsold it and made more and more money.

    We'll revisit the pricing when the new 09s arrive.

    Count on this. The Corolla will outsell the Civic and make much much more money for the parent company. And in the end that's the only criteria that counts.

    Everything else is just beauty pageantry hoopla.
  • I think Toyota was way too conservative in the new drivetrain for the 2009 Corolla. A 132 bhp engine with a 4AT transmission won't cut it against the 140 bhp engine with 5AT transmission found on all Honda Civic models.

    Besides, Honda is now one model year away from doing their mid-model change (MMC) on the current Civic. Honda could easily offer a new 1.8-liter I-4 engine with the new Advanced VTEC valvetrain and a six-speed automatic, and that will make it even MORE desirable than the new Corolla. I hope Toyota comes to its senses and offers a Corolla sedan with the new 150 bhp Valvematic engine and a 5AT transmission to better compete against the upgraded Civic.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    I doubt there will be any major powertrain changes on the 2009 Civic especially when the new Corolla isn't even matching what the Honda Civic has now. If they add stability control, bluetooth and a few other minor improvements to the 2009 Civic, they will be set until the full redesign in a few years..
  • jet10000jet10000 Posts: 656
    Toyota may lose the 12 enthusiasts but gain 12,000 others because the vehicle is priced right. In the end nothing matter except which vehicle makes more money. The rest is fanboi hoohaa and beauty contests. Just count the money at the end of the year and that's the winner.

    Perhaps an automotive executive cares who sells the most at the end of the day, but as a buyer it means zilch to me. As a buyer, I want the most features and the highest quality in relation to the dollars I'm willing to pay.

    American manufacturers thought nothing mattered except which vehicle makes more money for many years too. So they did the same thing you're advising to keep counting the money and declaring a winner. They followed your advice and now they're in the hole.

    Car buyers don't change their buying habits as quickly as buyers of clothes or music. But as proven by the decline market share of the "Big 3", change they eventually will.

    So sure Toyota can throw any old Corolla out on the lot and it will sell in the short term. But if they don't continue to offer a cutting edge product in terms of features and value, the money they may have counted in 2006 won't count for much in 2016.
  • jet10000jet10000 Posts: 656
    From the Canadian site it appears that all the options are available. I can't see them offering it in the North but not in the South. For what reason would they do this?

    Again, the Canadian market is far different from the American market. The Canadian market is more similar to Europe in the popularity of the compact cars. Thus car manufacturers will are more likely to offer luxury items in a compact up there. Car manufacturers have been selling upgraded compacts in Canada for years. The Civic has had a leather option available there for example.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I still don't see what benefit for Mr/Mrs America will see by having a 5AT vs a 4AT. Are they going to race their Corolla? What is it that a day to day driver will gain by the extra gearing? If the 5AT were significantly more economical then OK I'd see some benefit...but it's not...from the EPA website:

    2008 Honda Civic 5AT
    New EPA MPG
    New MPG tests are more realistic
    Regular Gasoline
    City 25
    Combined 29
    Hwy 36

    2008 Toyota Corolla 4AT
    Regular Gasoline
    City 26
    Combined 29
    Hwy 35



    Fuel Economics
    Cost to drive 25 Miles $2.59 $2.59
    Fuel to Drive 25 Miles 0.86 gal 0.86 gal

    Cost of a Fill-up ..........TBA ........ $35.76
    Miles on a Tank ......... TBA ....... 345 miles
    Tank Size ................. TBA ....... 13.2 gal
    Annual Fuel Cost* $1558 $1558

    Based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 miles/year and Reg.: $3.01 per gallon
    Click to use your gas prices and annual miles
    Energy Impact Score
    Annual Petroleum Consumption
    (1 barrel=42 gallons)
    11.8 barrels 11.8 barrels
    Carbon Footprint
    Annual Tons of CO2 Emitted 6.3 6.3


    Wher is the benefit of a 5AT vs a 4AT?

    That being said, if the new Valvematic that soon will be on every new Toyota engine, comes out and adds 10% to the FE across the board then there's a real benefit. But now we're back to business and economic considerations. Profit and Expense and Pricing.

    After 2 yrs when this new Corolla model has paid for itself and it's development costs have been covered then a new more expensive, more efficient engine can be added without increasing the price of the vehicle.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    As your figures show, a 5AT on the Civic gets better highway fuel economy than the less-powerful engine and 4AT on the 2009 Corolla. That's one benefit. Another benefit is that a 5AT can shift more smoothly than a 4AT because there's less difference between ratios, depending on how they're designed of course.

    Is it a huge difference? No. I think some people make more out of the benefit of a 5AT vs. a 4AT on a low-powered car than is there in the real world of A-to-B commuting, the typical use for cars like the Corolla.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Oh really? Please name the specific differences that have always been in effect in Canada for say the last 20 yrs on the prior Corollas and Camrys specifically because Canada is more similar to Europe than the US.
    Canada has had more diesels while the US has had more gassers? Uh, No
    Canada has had more upscale features while the US has not? Uh, No
    Canada uses the metric system and the US does not? Uh, OK

    Please, you're just making things up now. It's referred to as the NADM for a reason.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    Several years ago, 3 speed automatics were the standard. Then 4 speeds became the standard and some cars lagged behind extra years with 3-speeds (like the Neon and Metro) when almost everyone else was on 4 speeds.
    Now 5-speeds are expected on new designs and the Corolla is lagging behind for a "new" model.
    Cars with smaller engines benefit most with more gears. It isn't just the top gear, but the more closely spaced gears in between make for smoother acceleration without huge RPM changes between gears. Much more refined drive and the car stays in it's power band when you are trying to get on the freeway and you still have a tall gear left over for quiet highway cruising.
    Ironically, cars with bigger engines that don't need gears to be as closely spaced are the ones that are getting 5 and 6-speeds in many cases. The Rav4 has a 5-speed with the V6 and 4-speed with the 4 cylinder when it would be more practical if it was the opposite.
    Lexus with 7 speeds and a V8? You shouldn't even be able to feel the gears change at all.
    1.8 liter 4 cylinder with only 4 speeds? Crude and dated for a newly designed 2009 model.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Perhaps an automotive executive cares who sells the most at the end of the day, but as a buyer it means zilch to me. As a buyer, I want the most features and the highest quality in relation to the dollars I'm willing to pay.

    American manufacturers thought nothing mattered except which vehicle makes more money for many years too. So they did the same thing you're advising to keep counting the money and declaring a winner. They followed your advice and now they're in the hole.


    The big difference is that Toyota has been doing this for nearly 30 years also, just better than Detroit. They have always been blasted for selling vanilla ice cream....because the vast majority of the US buying public likes vanilla ice cream. On the domestic boards there's intense frustration with both Toyota and Honda because of their bland styling ( til late ), tiny putt-putt engines, and appliance-type appeal.

    That's what's made the two so successful. It's now being copied by Hyundai.

    Again it's a HUGE market that can cater to all tastes and desires. Yours is for more rather than less so maybe Mazda or Honda is the better choice. This is good because you can be satisfied and still the bulk of the population can be satisfied as well.

    Again this has everything to do with the normal distribution bell curve and profits..nothing more.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Watch when the new 2.0L Valvematic eventually makes it's way here it will probably be linked with a 5AT. But this 1.8L is still a small engine.

    Outside of beauty pageant awards what's the benefit to Mr/Mrs America of a 5AT over a 4AT?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Agreed on the Hwy FE but if as expected the new 2009 Corolla gets
    City 27
    Combined 30
    Hwy 35

    ...on what will be a bigger vehicle then even with an 'outdated' 4AT the Corolla comes out ahead econmy-wise.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    ??? The same as the benefit of a 4 speed over 3 speeds from 10 or 15 years ago. Closer spaced gears, less rpm change between gear changes, smoother acceleration, quicker acceleration, more refined, sometimes improved fuel economy.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    Yes, probably due to lighter weight and lower power compared to the Civic. I wonder what kind of highway FE the 2009 Corolla would get with the 1.8L engine and a 5AT? Also hard to tell the driveability of the 2009 Corolla with 4AT vs. Civic with 5AT until the Corolla is available for testing.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It appears that all the comments back and forth are essentially in agreement. The 5AT is probably smoother but more expensive. The 4AT is well proven, less expensive and likely more efficient even on a bigger vehicle.

    The market 'needs' both options in order to satisfy both the enthusiasts and the cost-conscious. This is good.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,784
    I don't agree with the "...likely more efficient even on a bigger vehicle" part. I don't think there's any evidence that a 4AT is more efficient than a 5AT, in general. In fact, I think it's the other way around. The more gear ratios there are, the more efficiently the transmission can use the car's available power at all speeds.
  • No, actually you didn't understand my post at all..to use your same tone!

    I can't comment on price in mid-atlantic area any more than I can comment on 1st hand experience in Japan.....what is available here [practically] to me in FL is priced higher than the civic and is outdated...should have a better offering for 09 after several years to work on this.....i don't think the 09 will be competitive...I know they can do better than tweak the same engine and keep the same trans....throw a camry engine in for the upper models..and add new sheetmetal and lights and call it 'new'....honda did a complete re-design for the 06 and up..I know Toyota can do the same after doing things like the prius..and other hybrid work....and ditching one of their best samll cars..believe it or not, the echo.......
  • There are two benefits of going from 4AT to 5AT:

    1) improved acceleration, since you can keep the engine in the most efficient rev range for acceleration.

    2) Better freeway fuel economy, since with a 5AT you can use a gear ratio in the highest gear for lower engine revs without sacrificing performance when you accelerate at freeway speeds.

    That's why Honda's development of the compact 5AT unit for its Civic line was such a big breakthrough; I hope that Toyota will offer soon a similar compact 5AT for the Yaris and Corolla and the Scion xB and xD models, especially with today's high fuel prices.
  • Here is a very funny news article about these two cars:
    http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/01/business/NA-FIN-US-Toyota-Corolla.php

    I have a question to both Chief engineers Mr Shinichi Yasui and David Terai of Corolla and Matrix respectively.
    Ummh . What exactly did you engineer in these cars?
    Ummh.. do we really need engineering to produce these cars? Can't we use the old drawing? I dont see any difference anyway.
  • Furthermore, Chief Engineer David Terai said in the article that they want the Matrix to apeal to the younger buyers.
    I nearly fell off my seat after reading this. If youre having your meal and planning to read the article, please stop eating because you might choke with laughter.
    Ummh.... Mr Engineer David Terai ... how is this going to appeal to younger buyers sir. Do you think that STICK ON , TACKY body parts such as the front spoiler , side rocker panels will appeal to the younger buyers? Does TORSION BEAM rear suspension appeal to younger buyers? Does whacky, retarded, body lines that you cant figure out if it was designed here or in Mars appeal to younger buyers?
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Since this thread has deteriorated into a Civic VS Corolla argument I'm skipping town for awhile. See you in Feb. image
    I don't have the time and energy to keep banging my head against the wall. image
    What part of Corolla outsells Civic do you guys don't understand?
    Mackabee
  • "The acceleration is better than Camry," said chief engineer Shinichi Yasui, noting the XRS Corolla can go from zero to 60 mph in 8.1 seconds. "This acceleration is top of class for a small car."

    Really ? Get out of here!
    Ummh... Mr Chief Engineer sir, Which Camry are we talking about here, the 2.4L or the 3.5L? Well, if it was the 2.4L, it certainly is not a feat that you can be proud off considering that its heavier than the Corolla.

    Now I know why we got a badly redesigned Corolla.
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    "Honda offers a 4 cylinder Civic with heated leather seats beginning this year. Other than Mackabee's supposed "inside" sources, there's been no official info from Toyota that the Corolla will be available with the same feature for the 4 cyl. "

    When did I say the Corolla would be available with heated seats?
    Mackabee
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ...the whole point. It doesn't have to win any awards. It only has to sell to the bulk of the population that wants it just as it is.

    Again the old outdated Gen9 Corolla outsells the wonderful new Civic. That's all that counts. Nothing more. If certain buyers don't feel it suits them then there are plenty of options available. If the bulk of the buying public wants vanilla ice cream then the Corolla will continue to crush all the others.

    It's very very simple.

    We had this same discussion two years ago before the Camry came out and you predicted it would be a loser. Well if being No 1 in sales and making tons of money is losing, then point me in that direction. So far you're 0-1 in your predictions.

    Here is mine. The new Corolla will astound/frustrate the enthusiasts because it will continue to trounce the Civic ( and all the rest ) even with only nominal changes. That's just what was intended.
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