Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





2009 Toyota Corolla

17273757778103

Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    While it's true 'YTRMV' nothing is set in stone forever. If one region such as CAT is offering a variety of models such as the XLE from $18000-ish to $22000-ish it's likely that others with fewer model options will follow suit. The purpose afterall is just to move metal.

    Here too the XRS goes for the same MSRP of $23345 and there's only one package option ( SR, EJ ). At some time in the future that package options will be eliminated and just the base model will be offered, probably with some individual options.

    But here is a key point. The Corolla is still a soldier supporting the Camry line. The 4c Camry SE has a base of $23900, no SR, no VSC/Trac and standard Sound. The first package on the Camry SE adds the SR, VS and EJ for a new total of $25690

    Within the Toyota line the XRS offers a buyer the same 4c 2.4L but a smaller, presumably sportier/quicker vehicle, with more features at a discount from the Base model Camry SE; $23345 vs $23900. Which would you prefer the size and room of the Camry SE or the amenities and sportiness of the Corolla XRS. Both are about the same price. This is intentional. It's also a support for the Camry SE with Package A @ $25690. 'Well I really like all the features that the XRS has but I want/need more room.' 'OK, here is the upgraded Camry SE that has everything the XRS has and more room.'
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I know it is not a true midsizer, certainly not by today's standards. But to a Camry owner coming out of a 96, 97, 2000, 01 Camry it's pretty close.

    It is definitely smaller and it should be sold at a discount to the true midsizers. But see the price comparo above. Again we have to consider what is the target group of buyers.

    There are probably 2-3 million current Corolla owners on the road. For them this new Gen is noticably larger with a lot more features and varieties at about the same price.

    There are probably 2-4 million current Camry owners on the road. For a good portion of them this new Gen is slightly smaller than their current ride, with a ton more safety features, the same power or even more, better fuel economy, and more amenities. All at the same prices they paid back in 96 or 97 or 2000. For the more recent Camry owners this vehicle is a lot smaller but it does have appeal as a mini-version at a discount.

    Finally there is likely soon to be a flood of new buyers moving down in size and up in fuel efficiency as gas prices skyrocket. These buyers coming out of SUVs and large trucks have been accustomed to a certain level of amenities. Offering them a basic $17000 Corolla will never fly.

    But I could be all wrong too. :shades: , I just don't think so. Time will tell though. To be revisited in December.
  • I thought that commercial was pretty funny. I can attest that the new Corolla is very, very quiet and is also very refined. I really appreciate this a lot about the new Corolla. I've driven two LE's so far. It's almost like therapy on wheels after a long, hard day at work. It seems like a very well made, well engineered car.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I think there is more to the story than just saying that power increase 5% and weight increased 10%.

    On the whole, the Corolla is still lighter than many of its competitors. Weights published for the last generation Corollas never included SAB/SAC and ABS, which all weights now include since these are standard features. Those calling the Corolla porkier may have not considered how much such items weigh, or consider that the new Corolla is said to be much more rigid in structural integrity if MotorTrend, Car and Driver reviews are to be indicative. The Corolla has not grown dimensionally overall, giving up some height for some width, no doubt which is used for an improvement in side impact crash protection.

    The heaviest 2009 1.8L Corolla is the S 4A, at 2822 lbs. The heaviest 2008 1.8L Corolla was listed as the S/LE 4A, at 2615 lbs, but without the aforementioned safety features. That's about a 7.5% weight increase, not including the safety stuff, which would shrink that number further.

    Regarding fuel economy, despite the 5% horsepower gain and the 7.5% weight gain, is the same or better than last year. The 2009 S 4A is rated at 27/35 by the EPA, whereas the 2008 LE 4A was rated at 26/35.

    More safety + more power + maintained or better MPG IS an improvement, IMO.

    I agree with you regarding packages, however, Honda does sell the Civic DX, which is basically totally undesirable by most of the population since A/C would need to be dealer installed. Essentially, Honda's entry level model is the LX, which is $17K plus, meaning, priced very similarly to Corolla LE with power pkg, cruise, etc.

    Note: my specs are from those available on the specification pages for the Corolla at pressroom.toyota.com
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    "Won't get into details about the Yaris other than say I don't like it and I expect Toyota is not too happy with it either."

    Yaris has come close to DOUBLING Toyota's initial sales expectations. Toyota introduced an 'S' hatchback this year and stepped up production because it found it had way underestimated sales volumes. I think Toyota is probably fairly happy with it....

    "Interesting to note Toyota changing model names almost as quickly as GM or Ford with Tercel>Echo>Yaris.

    Tercel and Starlet were darn near indestructible."

    I think Echo will prove to be just as indestructible. Tercel was too. As for Starlet, well that was one of Toyota's little occasional slips, from what I have read. Not very durable, to say the least. But it was also a short-lived model.

    As for name changes, the Echo was only called that in North America, and was identical to the last-gen Yaris sold everywhere else in the world.

    Except for the huge new trunk and a little more elbow space in the front seats, the '09 Corolla is the same size as the last one, seems to me. Definitely not midsize.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • wc1wc1 Posts: 11
    You folks that are complaining about the price of the Corolla: You have a choice: DON'T BUY IT. If this car is overpriced, the marketplace will sort this out. My guess is that you can wait until June and get this thing at a $1000-$1500 discount off MSRP. If you buy from dealer stock right now, it's MSRP or nothing. Plus, if you don't live the the Southeast or Gulf States region, you can order what you want with each individual option that you want, and receive it in 2-3 months. If you live in the Southeast, go to TN or VA. Place your order by fax. If you live in Texas, go to KS or NM. Fitzmall is already discounting Corollas big time. This thing is built in California, not Japan. Ordering is no big deal. You don't have to take a bunch of crazy packages. Jeez.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    "On the whole, the Corolla is still lighter than many of its competitors."

    Sure sure, but it is not lighter than its main competitor, which also happens to have more power with the same fuel economy and all that safety equipment you mentioned.

    And if one were not a fuel economy maven, then one would probably note that the REST of the field, almost to a man, has more power than Corolla to go along with their extra weight. But weight is my new pet peeve in general, I am not singling out Corolla here. What I am saying about the Corolla is that weight is up more than power is, without any improvement in fuel economy. If that's partially for the sake of a quieter ride, then some would say it is an acceptable trade-off. Me, I am not one of those some, and I can't call it an improvement.

    As for safety, Corolla now catches up with the field in passive equipment, but despite the increase in weight, it still has the same size brakes as before, and the rears are still drums (except on XRS?). Will this lead to increased stopping distances or increased fade under hard emergency use? I await detailed analyses in the car mags for these answers.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Your comments regarding the Corolla's brakes appear misleading. The front brake discs are listed as the same size as before, but the swept area - the surfaces upon which friction is applied such that the vehicle stops.... are much larger. (And rear drums are larger with greater swept area too)

    2009 Corolla 1.8L
    Front discs: 10.8 inches w / Swept area: 207 square inches
    Rear drums: 9.0 inches w / Swept area: 155.6 square inches

    2008 Corolla 1.8L
    Front discs: 10.8 inches w/ Swept area: 157.5 square inches
    Rear drums: 7.9 inches w/ Swept area: 58.4 square inches

    So really, the brakes are not nearly the same as before, as your comments indicate. And right here on emunds.com, there are brake test results of a loaded Corolla S 5M, so you can check those results out if you choose to.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    But inventing an XLE trim that basically mirrors the outgoing LE trim, making the new LE the old CE, and adding a "standard" trim at the bottom, is a clever way to disguise the fact that you have raised prices: people will naturally compare LE to LE and say "wow, they haven't raised prices at all!". In 2009 MY, they are still selling two of five Corolla trims (including LE) without power windows or locks? Even Honda wouldn't try to get away with that (and doesn't). And unless I am recalling incorrectly, the 2008 LE had the power package standard. Clever, Toyota, clever.

    Good catch on the 'slippage' in the trim levels. Yes it seems that the XLE is the former LE ( plus ) while the LE is the CE ( plus ) and the standard is the 'value edition.'

    Now as as to a comparo between the older LE and new XLE the salient differences are..( Gen 9 vs Gen 10 +Pckg A)
    Mechanical
    1.8L VVT-i vs 1.8L Dual VVT-i
    15" wheels vs 16' wheels ( steel )
    195 / 65R15 vs 205 / 55R16
    smaller swept area / larger swept area ( alpha01's post above )

    Safety
    No active head restrains vs Active head restraints
    No TPMS vs TPMS
    VSC Not Avail vs VSC optional ( see below )
    S/C AB optional vs S/C AB standard
    ABS, EBD, BA options vs all standard

    Comfort / Convenience
    Tilt SW vs Tilt + Telescoping SW
    fixed seating vs improved 4-way adjustable seating

    Options
    S/C AB vs Standard
    ABS/EBD/BA vs Standard
    6 CD non-JBL vs 6 CD non-JBL
    Cruise Ctrl vs Cruise Ctrl
    Floor mats vs Floor mats
    No VSC/TRAC vs VSC/TRAC

    MSRP
    $18520 vs $19059 Pckge A
    The vehicles are nearly identical in price with the key differences being the standard and optional safety features, the engine and the interior room.

    Package B in Gen10 adds a Moonroof ( SR )
    Package C in Gen10 adds the JBL sound system w/BT in lieu of the Moonroof ( EJ )
    Package D in Gen10 adds both the Moonroof and JBL sound ( SR, EJ )
    Package E in Gen10 adds the Moonroof and Navi in lieu of the JBL ( SR, NV )

    Thus outside of additional customer choices in amenities the current XLE is the same as the prior LE except that the XLE has more safety features, more passenger room, a better smoother engine and a quieter experience for a $540 difference in price.

    YTRMV of course..at least initially.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,618
    when the camry/turndra was new, same thing.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    So you mean I can go into any Toyota dealer in the Midwest, ask for an LE with the only options being VSC, cruise, keyless entry, carpeted mats, body side moldings, and the required All Weather Guard package, MSRP $18,599 (maybe get it for near $17k in June), wait 2-3 months, and I can get it that way--and in the color I want? That's not too bad then. $17k is still a lot for it, IMO, considering some alternatives out there for the same or less money, but it's getting more reasonable.
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    The 08 Corolla has tpms.
    :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    kdh, I admire your persistence! I love it, in fact! :-)

    Hmm, I could go check, but I am pretty sure TPMS was standard on the '08 Corolla. I'm positive it was on the '08 Matrix.
    You listed optional VSC twice.
    And the dual VVT-i is controversial as an "improvement", for the reasons noted in our little dialog earlier. I suppose it contributes to the new reduced smog emissions rating, which I give a thumbs-up.
    And 4-way adjustable seating is 4-way adjustable seating, no matter how much you call it "new and improved". But you have confused me, I thought driver's seat height adjustment was standard across the board on the '09? There is still no lumbar adjustment, I guess?

    I built an '09 XLE with package A, Toyota.com told me $19,320. I would say that's an extra $800 for VSC and 1" bigger rims? That's great if you want VSC, not so great if you don't care about it. Will I be able to get that car for $16,5 by summer, the way I could get that last-gen LE for the last couple of years? I dunno...

    And alpha: fair enough, the swept area is larger. But the overall size of the discs is what contributes to heat dispersement, and therefore the brakes' ability to resist fade and warping under hard braking, especially repeated hard braking. My opinion hasn't changed, but you have contributed some interesting numbers to the discussion.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Since I came down with a bad case of the flu last Tuesday, today was the first day I actually had to spend some time in the new Corolla. I put it side by side with the 08 and it actually looks smaller. A bit wider but overall smaller. The trunk is bigger in the 09, consequently the interior space is reduced. You can see this immediately by sitting in the back seat. The 08 wasn't much of a legroom getter in the back but this 09 has less legroom. The roof is lower so headroom is also less.
    In no way does this remind me of the 97-01 Camry other than that one was also marketed as being bigger than the 92-96 gen. Negative on both cars. I own a 97 and a 93. The 93 is roomier and interior is larger than on the 97. I feel the same way with this new Corolla. I don't know what measuring devices the engineers were using but they don't add up.
    Driving it was like driving a Yaris, the engine is quieter than the previous gen but the acceleration not as good as the previous gen. Overall a big disappointment for almost the entire sales force at my store. In reality all they did to "improve" it over the current gen was to add a trip computer, tilt/telescoping wheel, aux input, 1 inch bigger tires and wheels, larger trunk (smaller interior) and that's it. Yet Europe and other countries can get the smart key system, digital auto climate control, and a few other features that escape me. We Americans must be really dumb for Toyota to dumb down their cars for our market.
    :(
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    Or at least to dumb them down THIS MUCH, eh?! ;-)

    And thanks for confirming my impressions of relative size, I was beginning to think I was nuts. I have spent way too much time in the '97-99 Camrys to believe the '09 Corolla has as much interior space, and I agree that the rear seat of the new model actually feels smaller than the outgoing model.

    I notice that after making such a huge fuss about the rear seat X-bracing etc in the Camry SE in order to improve handling (which it does), Toyota has done nothing of the kind, not even put in an independent rear suspension, in the Corolla XRS. To say it is a smaller cheaper Camry SE is a stretch, IMO. They just happen to share a powertrain, nothing more.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ;) Good, more for us to sell. :shades:
    ( as background Mack and I work in competing stores on opposite side of the same metroplex. Our two stores are exactly the same size with their emphasis being the Camry and ours being trucks ). It's fun to exchange ideas, but I think his sales force needs a collective eye checkup. :P

    It must be the built in optical illusion that was just recently announced quietly. :surprise:

    OAL........... 188.5 ..........178.3 ..........178.7
    OAW........... 70.1 ............66.9 ...........69.3
    HT............... 55.4 ............58.3 ...........57.7
    WB.............105.2 ......... 102.4 ......... 102.4
    CW............. 3000 ..........2595 ...........2811
    Track....... 61.0/59.9 ... 58.3/57.5 .... 59.8/59.9
    HR-F........... 38.6 .......... 38.8 ........... 38.8
    LR-F............ 43.5 .......... 41.3 ........... 41.7
    SH-F........... 56.2 .......... 53.1 ............ 54.8
    HP-F........... 54.0 .......... 51.9 ............ 53.0
    HR-R........... 37.6 .......... 37.1 ............ 37.2
    LR-R........... 35.5 .......... 35.4 ............ 36.3 HUH?
    SH-R........... 56.1 .......... 53.5 ............ 54.6
    HP-R........... 54.0 .......... 46.2 ............ 43.9 HUH?
    Pass Vol...... 96.8 .......... 90.3 ............ 92.0
    Carg Vol....... 14.1 .......... 13.6 ............16.6 WOW !

    I still contend it will be a winner, but what do I know - I'm a Giants fan since 1958. Obviously there's no way the Giants could play the Pats headsup for 8 quarters and beat them into submission. So I guess I'm wrong here as well. Oh well, let's just play the game and get on with it.

    No it's not the same size as the Gen4 Camry but it's pretty close IMO...and it's still a better value for me than the Gen9 Corolla. And no Mack the Gen10 is not smaller than the Gen9. Vision checks all around.
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Ok spydey, whatever you want to believe. Toyota has tried pulling the wool over our eyes before. They said the 8th gen Corolla was also bigger than the 7th gen. It wasn't. When the first Tundra came out they also said it was bigger than the T-100., It wasn't. I even wrote the technical people and challenged their specs and actually changed the source book.
    Just because we compete doesn't make us enemies. I have a keen eye for quality and fit and finish. We will sell more than our share, that's no question about it but it is still a big disappointment. :P
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I kind of doubt that Corolla owners will ever engage in "repeated hard braking".

    Your original question regarding the same brake sizes was "Will this lead to increased stopping distances or increased fade under hard emergency use? I await detailed analyses in the car mags for these answers. "

    I do not think stopping distances will be longer, given the increase in braking surface area as illustrated, and Edmunds.com's tests did not indicate any fade issues.

    I'll help you with the results:
    Overall Brake Rating (Excellent, Good, Average, Poor or Very Poor): GOOD
    60-0: 125 feet
    Braking Comments: "A little spongy with a generous amount of dive, but the brakes themselves are effective."
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You raise a good point - what are the actual suspension tuning differences between the Corolla S and Corolla XRS?

    Mack - agreed. Why has Toyota seemed to cheaped out on this redesign?

    My questions: Where's push button start? Where's a power seat or auto climate for the XLE? Where is standard stability control? Where is a 5-speed auto for all models to improve power and efficiency? Where's the driver's knee airbag thats standard on the Camry (even though nobody cares about it)? Where's leather on the XLE? Where's an independent suspension on at least the XRS?

    Where, where, where?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    In terms of repeated hard braking, I am thinking of coming down a long grade, traditionally a Toyota weakness (reference the brakes on the old Sienna, most of the Camrys of the last decade, esp the 4-cylinders, 4Runners between '90 and '02, etc). All I'm saying is when mass increases, brake size should increase proportionally.

    "My questions: Where's push button start? Where's a power seat or auto climate for the XLE? Where is standard stability control? Where is a 5-speed auto for all models to improve power and efficiency? Where's the driver's knee airbag thats standard on the Camry (even though nobody cares about it)? Where's leather on the XLE?"

    I'm thinking they are holding back on all this stuff to offer a "Limited" grade in a year or two, bringing the total number of trims to a needless six. :-P
    Said Limited will base at $24K, allowing Camry prices to rise, following the "foot soldier" model that has been proposed here in this thread....

    Now I am curious to know if there is any difference at all in suspension between the S and XRS. The Matrix XRS gets an indy rear, but they totally cheaped out (this might be the most obvious cheap-out of all in this redesign) on the Corolla version, giving it the same suspension design as the rest of the Corolla line. Despite the two models being mechanical twins.

    The XRS DOES get larger rims and tires. Perhaps they have also lowered and/or stiffened the suspension/settings? The Camry SE is lowered AND gets larger sways than the other Camrys. Have they done THAT at least with the Corolla XRS?

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • With massive quality complaints abound, especially a whipping by Consumer Reports for shady quality... Toyota's are worth about what every other car is worth - invoice, and nothing more.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Nippon - I had a second to look it up, and according to the Corolla brochure, the XRS does indeed get a sport strut tower brace up front, as well as a different steering ratio than the 1.8L models. This, in addition to the larger wheels and tires that you already mentioned.

    That appears to be it, though, as noted, it carries the torsion beam rear setup of the 1.8L models, compared to the IRS setup found on the Matrix XRS.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    From experience nobody ever does...
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    Well, that's a bit wimpy - the underhood strut tower brace is a minimal improvement to handling - lowering and larger sways, not to mention an indy rear, would do a LOT more to improve handling than the silly brace. As for quicker steering, well that will make it feel more sporty I guess, but won't improve the slalom time by more than a hair. I guess the only real contribution to improved handling is the 17" rims and 10-mm wider tires. I believe they are a 45 profile - that's something. The XRS should have a bit less understeer, something that wasn't improved on the last XRS.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Nobody gets Toyotas at invoice? Hmm... if you go to the Fitzmall web site and look at their everyday "internet" prices on Toyotas, e.g. the Camry, you'll see many opportunities to buy a Toyota for far below invoice. And I'll bet they aren't the only dealer in the U.S. that routinely sells Toyotas for under invoice, especially considering rebates are commonly available on many models.

    Maybe your dealership has been successful at selling all Toyotas for above invoice, but that doesn't mean better deals aren't available elsewhere.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I took his statement to mean that "nobody ever does".... pay more than invoice... (at least not educated car buyers, or anyone who knows an educated car buyer)

    I think invoice -or at least good deals - are much more common than not, on most models of most makes. I was surprised that after test driving the new Accord the other day, the super-amazing saleswoman (who was so low pressure and generally fantastic) printed off a document detailing all the specials currently available for leases. (I must say, it was one of the most pleasant days of car shopping, with the exception of the abysmal Hyundai guy who kept telling me about "incentitives" and literally had me running from the lot).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I was saying the opposite...especially now, nobody pays anything other than invoice, less any rebates. TMS knows that there's no money being made at the retail level now at this time. At CAT's annual sales person's benefit in Atl City they admitted as much.

    But from the manufacturers' pov an invoice sale to the final buyer is still a 'full sticker' deal as far as the manufacturer is concerned. Of course rebates and subvented financing are the discounts from the manufactures' revenues.
  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    Well, CAT is mostly responsible for that. There's no margin to speak on most Toyotas so when you discount one and then add the dealer packs on them it gets ridiculous. I've given up fighting with customers over MSRP and sticker or anywhere in between. At my store you can sell a Corolla at MSRP and still get a mini. And what's up with Cash Blast? That's gone now too. I may be looking for another make of car to sell where I can actually make some money again. Highline is starting to sound good. I should have listened to some of my customers advice.
    :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    LOL! You mean he was actually saying "incentitives"? :-P

    You will have to put up with a lot of grief at most stand-alone Honda stores to get a car at invoice.

    Less so at Toyota dealers, especially the big corporate stores, where the way to shop is over the internet. On volume models like Corolla they will offer you invoice minus incentives right on the first inquiry. I wonder how soon they will be doing that on '09 Corollas. I would guess they probably don't start the deep automatic discounts until they are fully stocked on a new model, which may still be 4-8 weeks out for Corolla.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • mackabeemackabee Posts: 4,709
    I got a warm and fuzzy feeling with the S model. The cheap plastic doesn't look as cheap as it did in the LE. Could be because it's a charcoal/black color and doesn't show. The seats were also very nice as was the moonroof, spoiler, and alloy wheels. It also has the audio controls on the mini leather covered steering wheel. I did have to look twice at the price. $20,974.00. Funny thing was after I walked away our VP of sales happened to be walking back to his office and stopped to look at the car. I walked over and said "be careful when you look at the sticker, it might make you jump." He looked at me and said "Are you serious? $20,974.00 for a Corolla?" "yep, you get the moonroof, alloys and wheels, but the car just behind it is $1000 more." he looks back and there's an Camry LE which stickers for $21,934.00 and says "You're going to have a hard time selling this one."

    On a more positive note, I took an LE Corolla and a Matrix for a good test drive tonight. I must say I was impressed by the quietness of the Corolla at full speed. The engine still makes all kinds of ruckus when you first accelerate but then it just slowly quiets itself down. Getting off the expressway and back on to the boulevard I thought I was in a Camry instead due to the quietness of the car. The seating position is quite an improvement over the previous gen due to the tilt/scope wheel adjustments and the seat itself is more comfortable. Acceleration was brisk and shifts were nice and smooth. I did gun the gas pedal and it does seem quicker than before.
    The Matrix was just a re-run of the Corolla drive. Same chassis and drive train with a different dress.
    I'm looking forward to the XRS version of both cars and put them through their paces.
    :shades:
Sign In or Register to comment.