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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Tag - I have very serious doubts about diesel ever making it here and if gas settles in at $50-60 a barrel I doubt people will want any changes. There's been a $20 terror premium in gas for the last year vs what the ordinary laws of supply and demand would dictate. The demand side also has been overstated causing a decent (but not overly large bubble). Both premiums have been reduced but there's still more to go. I could be wrong but my gut tells me diesel is a tiny player in the US auto market.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Great minds think alike! :D

    I would consider 30k+ sales of the $90k S550 a "market imbalance".

    The LS will rectify that imbalance, and sell close to 40k in 2007

    The S450, when it comes available will do more damage to the XJ8 and the aging 750i than to the LS.

    I believe it is "common knowledge" at this point that the LS is better than a cut-rate S-Class. I don't think Lexus is worrying about the S450. Doubt they ever have.

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I could be wrong but my gut tells me diesel is a tiny player in the US auto market.

    Well, it is so far, but even recently the percentage gain is higher than hybrids, and there is large momentum. True, the falling gas prices will relax the consuming public's fuel tensions, but the recent hikes were a big pill to swallow, and many will not forget so easily.

    Additionally, some manufacturers have already pulled the stops out and will be marketing diesels, so there will be increased exposure and marketing to contend with.

    Further, the current price of fuel may seem low now, but that is only in contrast to the sky-rocketed prices just prior to this recent easing of prices. It wasn't long ago that even $2/gal seemed too high for many folks. Now the perspective is that it's cheap?

    Gasoline will get expensive again, anyway, as it always does. The world scene will never be stable for oil, and there are too many factors to support oil going higher again at some point in the not-too-distant future.

    Diesels are coming, and they will sell well, IMO. I don't expect them to ever be a huge share of the market, but I suspect that they will be more than a tiny player over this next decade.

    After that, who knows? Hydrogen seems to be the big buzz word, and already there are strong indications that hydrogen will be the next fuel for the next generation.

    TagMan
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Found this on CL.... very interesting since many people have speculated that the new 4.6L motor needs a high rev band to get most of its torque.... This curve shows its not true.

    First lets review: the new 4.6L has 380hp/363Ibft (Japan specs out to 385hp/369Ibft)

    image

    According to the analysis the guy presented:
    @ 2000rpm, the motor puts out 116hp/310Ibft
    @ 3000rpm, the motor puts out 197hp/340Ibft
    @ 4000rpm, the motor puts out 285hp/363Ibft (peak torque)
    @ 6400rpm (peak hp), the output is at 380-385hp/310Ibft

    Meaning, even at its peak hp output, the car still has tremendous torque.... you'd expect the torque to decline sharply past its peak torque band...

    So why are the auto rags and others around here on Edmund's claiming this car has no low-end grunt ??? Wanna stack this torque/hp curves against its German competitors to see ???
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I side with tagman on diesel, I think it will come out of this shell in this country. Once we get cleaner diesel, and 50-state vehicles, it will only be a matter of time before the mass media starts running stories about diesel, and diesel vs hybrid, and there starts to be a positive buzz and market momentum, imho.

    In the medium term, diesel-electric hybrid is going to be a big deal, imho.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    p.s. oil was around 60 today. I bet it hits 90 before it hits 30....or maybe we never see 30.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    It's amazing the detail Toyota takes in designing the Lexus. Not revolutionary changes, but kaisen - continuous subtle improvement....
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Wanna stack this torque/hp curves against its German competitors to see ???

    Indeed. Please put up the charts of the German competitors side by side if you can dig them up. I wish all brochures would have them.

    The LS460 power profile is mediocre, there's nothing special about it and the alleged lack of low-end grunt could still be compromised by gearing and shift time in spite of the eight speeds. I wouldn't be concerned though. The car is supposed to have more acceleration than the LS430 and this is more than adequate.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Indeed. Please put up the charts of the German competitors side by side if you can dig them up. I wish all brochures would have them.

    That's the problem.... they are nowhere to be found... We know how powerful these German machines are, yet it is so hard to find any real data on them. If YOU can find anything, please post. I cannot find anything, and I have tried...

    The LS460 power profile is mediocre, there's nothing special about it and the alleged lack of low-end grunt could still be compromised by gearing and shift time in spite of the eight speeds...

    I thought the Lexus engineer mentioned that the first 2 gears were set so close for sporty shifting... so that the car can get up pretty quick. The mid-range gears 3-6 are not as closely set, while 7&8 are for cruising. In addition, the gearing is also set to maximize MPG.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I thought the Lexus engineer mentioned that the first 2 gears were set so close for sporty shifting... so that the car can get up pretty quick. The mid-range gears 3-6 are not as closely set, while 7&8 are for cruising. In addition, the gearing is also set to maximize MPG.

    I agree with you, oac, that based upon most initial information, the tranny and engine are very well-mated to each other, and will likely provide the best result that the engine can offer.

    The engine undoubtedly needs to, and does so due to the low initial ratios in the first two gears, increase rpms quickly to achieve a quick sprint out of the gate. This is all by design to maximize what the engine can deliver, and as well, compensate for what it can't. Well done, IMO.

    If there were more low-end torque, the fuel economy would be even greater, however, because the engine would have been able to deliver its power at lower rpm's and therefore an even higher 8th gear ratio.

    All in all, what is commendable, IMO, is the way the tranny and the engine are so intentionally and carefully paired to each other.

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,255
    TagMan, I have been following your comments on both boards and I have to say that I really appreciate your unbiased approach. Some of the other guys on the HELM board are totally off the wall with their disgusting (and for the most part unfounded) remarks against Lexus and that has obviously resulted in a boycott of that board by some of the pro-Lexus people.

    Keep up the good work!
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I agree, cyclone4. Tagman is a good guy, on any board, and helpful. The word you may have been reaching for about the Lexus bigots on the HELM board could be "snob"???
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    TagMan, I have been following your comments on both boards and I have to say that I really appreciate your unbiased approach. Some of the other guys on the HELM board are totally off the wall with their disgusting (and for the most part unfounded) remarks against Lexus and that has obviously resulted in a boycott of that board by some of the pro-Lexus people.

    Keep up the good work!


    Wow! I certainly appreciate your compliment, but I will risk being outspoken enough here to let you know that I give kudos to the Doc, nvbanker, and the others that have continued to post their important and valuable opinions on the HELM board.

    The HELM board is only improved by including those different views, which means the continued participation by those that appreciate Lexus vehicles. After all, the LS is a HELM and deserves to have its spokespersons, not a boycott, which I hope will end very soon.

    But putting that aside, I truly thank you (and nvbanker), my friend.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    For your encouraging words. :)

    I always monitor the HELM board, and step in when I need to step in.

    Lexus seems more than ready to produce more HELM vehicles in the next few years, so hopefully there will be more meaningful discussions, and less biased rhetoric, to digest.

    Lexus is the one who upset the applecart.

    That will leave some people "upset". :mad:

    DrFill
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Posts against Lexus don't bother me at all. I actually read them the opposite way anyway. The more off the wall the comment the more annoying Lexus is to the poster as a brand that spoiled the one country party. But insults that attack a person or group of persons for buying the car are abysmally dumb, classless and cross a line that says I don't want to play there anymore. Hence I left, not for attacks against the brand but a series of posts that got personal in a very negative way and for no reason at all. Most of the guys over there are good but it only takes a few to take the fun and sport out of things. So put simply - the board stopped being fun for me.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Hence I left, not for attacks against the brand but a series of posts that got personal in a very negative way and for no reason at all. Most of the guys over there are good but it only takes a few to take the fun and sport out of things.

    Your return will put more fun back into the equation, IMO.

    If something repulsive shows up, ignore it.

    See you there.

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,255
    Yes, you are absolutely correct about the personal attacks. I was going to mention that but instead decided to ignore it. I remember very well what was stated several weeks ago.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I was going to mention that but instead decided to ignore it.

    Good decision.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Tag: Your return will put more fun back into the equation, IMO. If something repulsive shows up, ignore it.

    I posted the LS460 torque right here, which syswei kindly reposted for comments on HELM. And guess what... you read a post which starts off this way: "I don't think he understands how torque is generated - Merc1" and you say to yourself... never again would I join that kinda board. Its all personal with some of the folks out there...

    My original post described the LS460 torque curve versus some of the reviews we have read. This car's peak torque is 363Ib-ft @ 6400rpm, however, 80% of that torque is available at b/w 2800-4000rpm. OTOH, 100% of the S550's 391Ib-ft of torque is available in the same rpm range. That's a fair point to make, and also accurate as these cars are currently configured. And that could be made as simply without a retort to personal attack.

    With such sentiments, don't expect me on HELM anytime soon, if ever.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I thought the Lexus engineer mentioned that the first 2 gears were set so close for sporty shifting... so that the car can get up pretty quick.

    Well, setting them close doesn’t say much. The question I would ask him is if they are set close, what’s the reason for the extra gear to begin with?

    It’s hard to get a handle on gearing, that is, understand what ultimate effect it has on torque at the wheels which really is the bottom line. I think optimal gearing of the drivetrain is the most elusive part of understanding the performance of a car. Regardless of the transmission, if they put in a less-than-optimal final drive ratio and there goes your torque. It would be nice to compare drivetrains but there are so-o many variables that preclude this when considering varieties of gear ratios, shift speed, and engine torque at any given RPM and of course weight.

    Yes, he might have alluded to “sporty shifting” this but I neither believe or disbelieve it. I think it is quite possible this could be a marketing ploy, specious, wanting to impress by being the first to have 8 speeds. I am inclined to disbelieve it and my reason is this: gearing isn’t rocket science and it is curious how we are seeing 8 gears so late in automotive history. Why not sooner and why not in racing? Although low gearing helps acceleration, I’m not so sure an EXTRA low gear lops off acceleration time. Too bad identical cars can’t be compared with different transmissions as the only variable.

    Anyway, I am not trying to discredit the 8-speed transmission per se, but my intuition tells me to question it. I suspect it of being frivolous. The desire to stand out, to develop unique marketing benefits is just too compelling among all auto manufacturers, especially with luxury cars, and it is quite easy to realize how the title of this post is serious sizzle in the steak, apt to get luscious attention, marketing mileage.
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