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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    I think that the German makers have made a lot of mistakes lately (still love those SL65AMGS, but what can I do?) and I'm completely sure that Lexus will be able to outsell them in Europe someday. People will say that the only reason that Lexus is the #1 selling luxury car marque in the US is because of their SUVs. And I say, "so?" This might be a bad thing if none of the Germans made SUVs, but they all do. And obviously, there's something that people like more about the Lexus.

    I personally think that the 5-series looks better than the STS, M35/45, and S-Type but not as good lookin as the GS or A6.

    "I don't see them ever going to a Rolls level and you hardly need that"

    They can't. The weird thing about Rolls and Bentley is that even if they didn't revise their cars for ten years and other superlux makers came out, they'd still sell. You know why? They're named Rolls-Royce and Bentley. They are burned into the public's mind as unattainable and therefore, worthy of lust. Maybach? What's a Maybach? Unless you were around in the 1920's, it doesn't mean much. It takes heritage to build a car company like that..... and even Toyota can't buy that ;)

    I agree, the S-Class looks weird. Not as blatently ugly as the 7-Series, but not a good lookin car at all.
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    a bit off topic...I read that in the month of June when GM started its "employee discount for everyone" campaign, fully 69% of units sold were SUVs/pickups.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    “Be careful around here, as syswei cautioned. The Germancarfans are gonna pounce sooner or later, and its gonna become a free-for-all....”

    Heh, heh… I see you have a new bright-eyed, bushy-tailed recruit selling Kool-Aid.

    You guys are funny!

    ;-)
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Designman:

    I'd hope you would add more to the debate on what you think about the posts from jblak wrt Lexus v MB/BMW/Audi.... Do you see much truth in it, or is it all about Kool-Aid-drinking Camp Lexus :)
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    He makes some interesting points. I wish he would elaborate with less hyperbole. I think it is very possible the Japanese will rule the auto industry. You can’t help but notice their recovery from the ashes of WWII and the position Toyota has put itself in. Right now I am interested in what they can do with the IS since that’s the next batter up at the plate. They blew it the first time around and the new GS is whiffing so they’re not doing what everyone says they will do with performance. You guys are getting a little intoxicated on the notion of superior Lexus performance and they have showed very little so far in this regard. Prowess with manufacturing and production? No argument here, they’ve proven themselves. Performance is a different ballgame. However he doesn’t understand this… gives himself away right here…

    “Are there any Benz or BMW takers out there? If so, you're as foolish as the rest of the German Car Idiot's out there.”
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    OK, let's ignore for the moment the hyperboles (you called it) in jblak's posts.

    The new GS did not miss really. Rather, I'd say that it is a scheduling *problem* at Lexus to blame for the new GS. The engines designed for the new GS are the 3.5L and 4.6L, and the hybrid powerplant 450H. Unfortunately, neither of these engines were ready at launch. The 450H arrives next spring, and the 350 and 460-badged GS in the spring of 2007, or earlier (note that Japan gets the GS350 this Fall at launch). The LS is being cast, once again, as the de facto leader of the pack for the new-look Lexus, and all are being arranged (or re-arranged if you so wish) to afford the biggest bang for the next LS. The IS would do well, but it is by no means the key car for Lexus; its the LS that really starts things off, and then you start seeing the whole bunch arriving in quick succession:

    GS350/460
    LS600H
    IS500
    LS GT
    etc...

    circa 2007 when Lexus starts its ball rolling. The GS/IS are floor moppers for the next LS....
  • atlas7atlas7 Posts: 126
    yeah, LEXUS did screw up introducing a brand new GS model with a very old engine
  • chris65amgchris65amg Posts: 372
    we aren't really talking about the GS. Most of the auto mags have said that it was a good attempt. Besides (and I've said this about a jillion times) would anyone in their right mind actually expect Lexus to want to make a sport sedan of 5-Series caliber??!?

    And they did screw up a bit, but people are still buying the GS, apparently.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Which old engine? I ask because the 3.0L V6 in the GS300 is totally new for 2006 and the 4.3L V8 only came out for the 2001 model year. That is hardly *very old*.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    OAC - right on the money with that. Everything in the Lexus line-up will follow the LS. It's the key car and it's perfectly timed with the global intro for obvious reasons. Besides, how can anyone say the GS is a miss. They sold another 3300+ in June and are averaging well over the projected benchmark just like they did with the LS in 2001. Stopped at my Lexus dealer the other day for my 20K service (I am really up to 24K miles on my LS) and they continue to have every GS sold before they are in the door. It's why you can't get a deal around here at all.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Interesting discussion guys. Lets try and refrain from calling german car fans "fools" ok? It just doesnt help the cause at all. There are people that buy BMW or Mercedes just for the badge (usually 325is, C230s and 525is), and while I dont necessarily agree with it, its their decision to make. Then there are the serious enthusiasts with AMG and Motorsport cars. While Japan should start trying to compete in this catergory soon (with Lexus leading and Infiniti following) they currently have nothing. Even when they do start offering super powered cars to compete, they wont have the years and years of tuning experience that AMG, Motorsport, and Quattro Gmbh have. It will take awhile.

    The GS ultimately is what it is. Its definitely a Lexus through and through. However, there's just a little too much old GS and not enough IS300 in it. I like the GS300, but I dont like the GS430. The VDIM system needs an off switch, and Lexus needs to fix the pointless electronic active steering and brakes before I could consider it. A GS350 AWD, unfortunately for Acura, will make life for the RL that much harder. The GS is good, but this round definitely goes to Infiniti.

    I dont think Infiniti can beat the '07 LS though. They've been trying for 15 years, and they've failed for all 15. Infiniti can sell a more expensive car than Acura, but there's no way they can make an $80K car and expect anyone to actually buy one (ask VW how well their experiment went). I know I certainly wouldnt want to be the guy in charge of the '07 Q. Is it wierd that there is currently zero real info about the car?
  • well actaully it is pretty old engine....in 2001 they just made a slight improvment to the 4.0L engine they have been using for over 11 years. So the 2006 GS430 is basically using a 15 or 16 year old engine
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    the 2006 GS430 is basically using a 15 or 16 year old engine

    Not so, Vvti was added much more recently than 15 years ago.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    Many here believe the Germans will have roll over for the Lexus steamroll. Here's a list of why that's not so easy.

    1. The Germans did better in the latest JP Power, perhaps getting their quality problems under control.
    2. Is it so easy for Lexus to produce performance car as you guys think? It will be Toyota's initial effort against the like of Ferrari and Porsche. I predict Toy will find success in this segment as elusive as in F1. And remember they reportedly spend more money than anyone else in F1, and that doesn't guarantee success.
    3. Nissan GTR probably will have more success than LF-A, partly because it's the latest in Japan's most legendary line. LF-A has no heritage.
    4. Lexus will not find success in other countries as easily as US. Take Britain, it's been there for years, and yet its sales are a fraction of Audi and BMW. It will be even rougher in the continent.
    5. Case in point: the Aussie car magazine Wheels has this startling statistic. The current LS had some initial success but sales took a nose dive to 187 in entire 2004. Don't trust me, look it up in latest Wheels!
    6. Wheels reviews new GS and has this pungent remark: 'Does Lexus want drivers, or does it just want people who want peace and quiet?' If you read British car mags, that's pretty much their unanimous opinion. So for the formula for US success might not translate very well in the rest of the world. BTW, if you read between the lines, that's also the opinion of many American publications.
    7. The challenger to Ferrari and Porsche better want drivers.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    "The GS ultimately is what it is. Its definitely a Lexus through and through. However, there's just a little too much old GS and not enough IS300 in it. I like the GS300, but I dont like the GS430. The VDIM system needs an off switch, and Lexus needs to fix the pointless electronic active steering and brakes before I could consider it.

    Thanks for sparing me the effort. Couldn't have said it better myself... a Lexus through and through... exactly what a performance buyer doesn't want. You can't go halfway with performance, guys. Lexus has BMW in their sights? They won't get many BMW buyers that way. The BMW boys are hovering around the IS thread, can't wait to drive it. If it's a halfway car, they'll head for the hills.

    BTW it seems the new M came out of the gate pretty good and it still hasn't hit home. So, not only will you need performance, you'll need marketing and time. You don't just say... we have money and we'll do performance. Reminds me of the rich kid who shows up to the stickball game with a ton of cool equiment but can't hit a lick.

    Ljflx... yes, if you can forget SUVs for a minute (but not longer than that) the LS is Lexus, the halo car, the success story. Take note, it's a luxury car and many of you guys are on record as luxury lovers, not performance lovers.

    Mariner7... good post!

    PS - Sports cars are my favorite segment so as far as I'm concerned you can't have enough of them. If I am wrong you can come back here, quote me and rub it in my face... the LF-A is going to fail bigtime. Talk about having to prove yourself. Classic example of the rich kid I mentioned above. Do you guys realize how much iron and heritage this thing is going up against? Keep an eye on the IS, that could be the newest torchbearer until the next LS gets here. I said COULD BE!

    ;-)
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    -I agree with you to some extent, Lexus engineers aren't magicians and money isn't everything. The first IS fell short of the mark. The next one imho should be better, and I hope some will view it as competitive with the 3, but we'll just have to wait and see. I do think that Lexus is capable of improving things, and that there isn't some sort of Japanese genetic deficiency that prevents their engineers from producing performance cars if that is what they want to target. As designman pointed out and even merc1 would agree, Infiniti did a good job with the M.

    -With the LS we also need to consider what they are shooting for. With at least the LS460 and LS600h it appears to me that luxury will still be emphasized. Here is what Kevin said in post 317:

    Many of you in this forum seem to be confused as to whether or not the LS600h sedan would produce either 460 horsepower as CarMode magazine stated or 500 horsepower as some other magazine claimed. What I can tell you that CarMode’s predictions are very close to the engine ratings that Nobutaka and his engineers have being reported in our engine test lab. Although this might disappoint many of you whom want the LS600h in achieving 500 horsepower because the technology that is currently available to us can easily tune this engine to achieve 500 horsepower. However please remember by doing so, it would sacrifice a lot of it’s stability and smoothness of the engine itself and this would prevent a lot of buyers to purchase the LS sedan if they find out their sedan are not as smooth and stable as the original Celsoir processes. Furthermore you must also remember a sedan with 460 or 470 horsepower was not a slow sedan either and with the engine’s powerful torque curve plus a new 7-speed transmission, I don’t see there’s a reason why this sedan would not outrun the Mercedes S 600 or BMW 760 LI on the road.

    If they produce an LS GT, which at this point is still speculation, then we'll have to see what that is like when it appears.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    The Japanese are very good at making performance cars. Just ask the Subaru and Mitsubishi WRC cars, the GT-R, or the NSX. What Japan is not so good at is luxury performance cars, in the traditional European sense. Considering the age difference between Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus vs. Audi, BMW, and Mercedes, I think the Japan trio are doing very well.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    LG: Luxury performance as defined by Germany, right ? Yes, the Germans have an edge and continue to, but the gap is narrowing.... By 2007, the GT-R will be here, maybe the LF-A (Lexus GT), then we'll see whether the gap is fully closed or remains wide. One thing is for sure, Lexus wants to go global, and going global means doing things in not so traditional ways.... If Lexus wants to succeed in Europe, it won't just be bcos they can make luxury performance sedans, it will be bcos they can produce these cars locally, and can work within the governmental controls and biases created in Europe that gives undue advantage to the Euro car companies. Such biases are far less in the NA market, hence Lexus quick ascension to the luxury ladder crown.
  • horseman3horseman3 Posts: 1
    I'm new to this forum. When is it believed that the Lexus 460 would be available for actual purchase? My Infiniti Q45 is ten years old but still super. I want the new toys and larger trunk on a Lexus. Maybe I should wait for the 2007, but how long is that? I usually keep cars a long time. Maybe I should do a lease of the 430, and then go long term on the 460 after three years if I am happy with Lexus.
  • atlas7atlas7 Posts: 126
    I think Lexus missed a bit on the GS 430, the engine is basically the same performance as the original GS 400 that was introduced several years ago. Sure it's a nice ride, but the BMW 540 and the Infiniti M45 have MUCH more HP, 0-60, etc....Also, the GS 430 is not flying off the lot, only selling 600 cars a month. Don't get me wrong, still a nice car, but they could have and should have done better. The GS 300 should have come with the V6 in the Toyota Avalon, 280 HP and the 430 should have come out as the 460....oh well, I suppose they will get there at some point....
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    The 6 cyl mid level lux car always badly outsells the 8cyl. This is across the board in each nameplate.
  • lexusguylexusguy Posts: 6,419
    Expect to see the LS460 maybe in September of 2006. The current LS is great (its always been a great car, I've had one since 1996) but the the 2001 LS430 was a somewhat evolutionary step over the last LS400 design. I think the next LS will be a pretty radical step forward, one that will be worth waiting another year for.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    "I think it is very possible the Japanese will rule the auto industry."

    There's a startling article on the future of the auto industry in current Automobile. In 2000, the 3 biggest markets are US/Japan/Germany. In 2030, the 3 biggest will be China/India/US, in that order. Something tells me Chinese and Indian consumers will prefer their home teams and not let the foreigners rule over them. It's consumers in China and India who will determine losers and winners among today's auto companies really!

    Regarding LF-A. Porsche and Ferrari ruled the auto sports world 30 years ago, and that duopoly will be there 30 years from now. Despite the best efforts of Audi (R9, Lambo), MB (SLR), Toyota (LF-A), Nissan (GTR). Audi's effort is pretty credible though, it dominated Le Mans for quite a while. If there's a third member to the governing elite, it's BMW. Sports cars require heritage, so no Chinese or Indian here. But don't be surprised if Porsche or Ferrari falls into their hands!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,876
    Let's not get distracted - this discussion is for the Lexus LS only. If you want to discuss Lexus' successes or failures, please do so on the News & Views board. This topic is specifically not about the GS. Further off-topic posts will be deleted without notice.

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  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,687
    I overlooked the fact that it said the LS460 would come to market next spring. If they are right then the next LS and the next S hit the US market at at the same time. My dealer had said the car could be a spring 06 debut as an 07 car but I had started to feel that it would be a traditional September start date. Then the 600H comes in late 2007per the C&D blip. But that 18 month time horizon seems far too long a wait. I think the LS460 is pegged too early or the 600H is pegged too late by C&D.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    Actually no, it's not a pretty old engine. The engine was heavily reworked for the 1998 model year when they added VVTi to the engine to begin with. Except for the engine block, basically everything was redesigned on the engine. You are correct, the engine dates back to 1990, but it has changed significantly in the time since.
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "In 2030, the 3 biggest will be China/India/US, in that order. Something tells me Chinese and Indian consumers will prefer their home teams and not let the foreigners rule over them. It's consumers in China and India who will determine losers and winners among today's auto companies really!"

    I doubt Indian consumer's will prefer their home team car makers over the foreign makes if their cars are inferior. Already the biggest carmaker in India is a joint venture between Suzuki and a Indian company. The suzuki cars capture close to 50% of the consumer market. General Motors and Ford are also big sellers. GM sells many Isuzu designed vehicles as Chevy models over there. As well as Opel's are sold there. And recently, Honda and Toyota are making big inroads. The only strong homegrown Indian Automaker is Tata, which is doing quite well and even imports cars to parts of Europe these days. From experience though, Indian culture loves American stuff. They devour our music, movies, clothing brands, etc. I think if anything, GM, Toyota, Ford & Tata will end up being the top 4 brands. China on the otherhand, is alot more protectionist, and they will probably over the long term prefer their homegrown brands, but so far foreign carmakers like GM, Toyota, VW, & BMW are doing quite well.
  • rgswrgsw Posts: 333
    Concur with "HOST", this forum has degraded into a general forum for luxury and other cars. Let's get it back on topic....... 2007 LS
  • nissmannissman Posts: 8
    "Maybe you know much more about this subject than I do - but Ford is working with the toroidal CVT according to an engineer friend - and if they can afford it, Toyota can surely afford it, and the LS would be the place to deploy it. "

    Sorry, slow to get back as I had not heard of Ford and a Toroidal CVT trany. I cannot find any mention of it for production though - so maybe your engineering friend knows more than I do on that score. A web search seems to show them working on a full-toroidal IVT with a company called Torotrak - smaller, very fuel efficient and with geared neutral (neat). But the question still remains, has the LS got an expensive toroidal CVT or an 8-speed cog automatic trany?

    I still have my doubts about the CVT/IVT possibility, but I also think a normal 8-speed might be a busy shifter - which are you hoping for?
  • I also have my doubts on the CVT on the 460 and the GT versions. However it is very much possible that the 600h will have a CVT, considering that 400h has a CVT. And because that will probably reduce the quality of the ride, the 8-speed tranny, that would be a very busy shifter. I am thinking either a revised version of the 6-speed the LS has now, or a new 7-speed.
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