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Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I'm somewhat surprised by their forecast for 30% LS 460 L sales, I think in the US it'd be much higher, but perhaps the price figures into that equation.

    Well, the LS460L gets more of the "goodies", so it would seem that it should sell more than 30%.

    Unless . . . the REAL majority of Lexus LS buyers are less interested in the higher level of luxury, and are instead truly more value conscious than many of us would like to acknowledge.

    I would find it interesting if the majority of BMW 7 buyers go for the long wheelbase, the Mercedes S-Class is long wheelbase by default, but the majority of Lexus LS460 buyers conversely don't step to the plate but instead opt for the cheapest way to get the car.

    TagMan
  • nexuslexusnexuslexus Posts: 147
    Well the question is how many people currently opt for the ultra-luxury package, which is priced about where a well equipped LS460L will be.
  • Can't wait for the lexus ls 460l to get to the showroom. I really need to compare with BMW 750 and Benz S550.
  • My guess is LS 460L $70,000-$85,000 and LS 600h $80,000-$100,000
  • One thing is, Lexus seems to go for conservative forecasts. If I recall correctly, their IS series forecast seriously underestimated the demand for their 'halo vehicle' the IS 350. The more powerful, more expensive IS variant has sold significantly more than their forecast.

    It's possible that the 460 L forecast is small because they aren't certain how many buyers will opt for the larger version. It's an open question what the market composition of the New LS will be--but I think Lexus is aiming to catch more of the upscale, affluent buyer, while keeping a large portion of its value, efficiency-conscious base.

    I myself went from a long-wheelbase S-class to the LS 430, and although I wished I still had the oodles of rear seat room, I didn't miss it that much. But if there had been an LWB model of the LS, I might have gone for it, depending on how easy to park that vehicle was. My old S-class was really difficult to park here in SoCal, always searching for a large enough spot! But then again, that lovely car did not have Park Assist or cameras, etc.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Unless . . . the REAL majority of Lexus LS buyers are less interested in the higher level of luxury, and are instead truly more value conscious than many of us would like to acknowledge.

    This is the kind of erroenous information and mindset that we have debated in the past. I posted the demographics for LS owners in a post on this forum. The average age is 62, and the income is $200K+, ~60% are male. Are these not very comparable with those for the S- and 7-series owners ? Lexus may have "value", but I suggest that MB is overpriced for what it delivers, besides the fact that they are produced in high cost while Lexus is produced cheaper and hence is priced cheaper. Buyers at this age and income level are not stupid, hence the popularity of LS which made it the #1 luxury sedan in the US for 5 years running (except 2006). Len (ljflx) has posted repeatedly in the past that the lease prices between a $73K S430 v a $65K LS430 was barely different, while MB finance eats up the residuals.

    For those looking for luxury, refinement, first-class customer treatment, at an affordable price, Lexus is their choice. For those who desire a badge, and the look of affluence, MB fits the bill. Higher priced S-class does not suggest it is better than a lower priced LS, its just a matter of choice by the buyer.
  • Someone caught an LS 600hL on the 10 freeway in LA a few days ago, and posted some cellphone pics:

    http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235615

    Or at least it looks like a 600hL, judging by those LED triple headlights. But no badging and no hybrid indicators.

    I want to drive that vehicle! But I imagine it will be invitation or appointment-only. I wonder how many each dealership will get. And going by Lexus' 'all Lexus customers deserve the best' philosophy, I suppose an IS owner will wait in the same line as a 600hL customer? Or perhaps it will be like my accountant friend, who is an LS 430 owner and never has to drive to the dealership for service--they always pick her car up for her.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    This is the kind of erroenous information and mindset that we have debated in the past. I posted the demographics for LS owners in a post on this forum.

    Who said anything about demographics or affordability? And certainly no need to get insulting. Yikes!

    I was referring to the possibility of LS buyers (which you indicate to be as qualified as buyers of the other marques) making a distinctly different kind of decision as to the long wheelbase and/or option levels and the resulting price tier from that choice.

    I don't know why you interpreted that in a defensive manner. Sorry if you thought I was attacking Lexus buyers. I certainly was not, and I am still very interested to know if Lexus LS460/LS460L buyers will make a different evaluation and choice regarding the added wheelbase/luxury items as compared to the buyers of the other luxury marques.

    Hope that clarifies that for you.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I am more than impressed with this particular vehicle, regardless of my affection for European cars.

    I am already on record as early as April 14th in the HELM forum as predicting the LS600hL price to be $91,350. Certainly it could be higher and would still sell out, IMO.

    I think if the car is less than $90K it would be a freaking steal.

    The LS600hL is not to be confused with the LS460 or LS460L.

    It is an entirely different animal, worthy of worldwide respect and recognition. It will be an ultimate HELM and a very exclusive vehicle.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Or at least it looks like a 600hL, judging by those LED triple headlights. But no badging and no hybrid indicators.

    Can anyone tell by the front brakes? Also, those are the same wheels that have been on shots of the 600hl.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    ".... LS owners being more value conscious than acknowledged"... IMO is refering to affordability. I am sorry, that's how I read it. But let's move on. I accept your explanation...

    The LS460/L will be priced in the mid-60 to mid-80K range. These are already over 30% hike in the price of the base 460 vs the preceeding 430 base. I am assuming that you get a lot of features standard to justify that amount of hike. BTAIM, the 600hL is the car that should lift the 460 series to a new level. I hope that car is produced in very short supply to retain an exclusivity to it. That's something Lexus needs to do, and to resist the urge to meet the higher demand that car will attract.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    the 600hL is the car that should lift the 460 series to a new level. I hope that car is produced in very short supply to retain an exclusivity to it. That's something Lexus needs to do, and to resist the urge to meet the higher demand that car will attract.

    IMO, the 460 shouldn't need to rely on the 600 to be elevated. I expect it to be judged for what it is and isn't. The 460 and 600 are going to be very different animals.

    But I do recognize that the highest flagships in a marque tend to trickle down some of their attention and reputation to the rest of the line. Heck, it is in many cases the very reason for a top end vehicle in the line-up. To say "look what we can do".

    Anyway, I agree that Lexus should keep the "exclusivity" of this vehicle and try not lose it.

    TagMan
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Your comparison of demand for the Honda Insight with that for the GS hybrid doesn't make sense

    My intention was to point out the similarity between niche cars .

    If you understood my post as saying that a hybrid GS and Insight are the same type of cars then I do apologize for my miscommunication.

    And yes despite its low volume sales the hybrid GS is a very novel and unique luxury car.
  • Thank you for the clarification as well. I would also like to point out an essential difference which I feel is valid to the LS 600hL and GS 450h: both are intended to be low-volume, exclusive vehicles, the Honda Insight less so. Unfortunately for the Insight, high expectations ran afoul of low sales, and the vehicle may (or already has?) been cancelled.

    I feel that it is indeed legitimate, as TagMan has suggested, for Lexus to keep the numbers of Lexus hybrids low--so as to increase the exclusivity. Additionally, another factor may be of consideration--the high cost of construction; according to some sources each hybrid sold is still loss-making. Perhaps the Lexus hybrids are not, but the technological sophistication and engineering resources required to build each hybrid vehicle surely are greater than their conventional counterparts.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Re: Performance Options - If there is an engine option, I always opt for the larger one. Usually get almost as much mileage, and like the power. Other than that, I don't do anything extraordinary. I usually get a car with some punch anyway, and it's enough for me. I'm not yet sold on the coin required for the hybrid, so not interested in that. I also don't buy the V-12 either, just so that's clear. Now, why did you ask? :confuse:
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Unfortunately for the Insight, high expectations ran afoul of low sales, and the vehicle may (or already has?) been cancelled.

    Correct. The Insight vehicle is cancelled. Interestingly, however, Insight sales (while pitifully low) have nearly doubled recently. The car will be replaced in two years with a more versatile and more advanced hybrid compact.

    To add perspective, Civic hybrid sales are considerably higher, but Prius sales have actually decreased, and the new Camry hybrid sales are brisk. Lexus RX hybrid sales have tanked WAY off, while Highlander hybrid sales are flat.

    Still . . . the LS600hL will sell out and be a smashing success, IMO. (but not forever, as surprises are in the wind from the competition).

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    So, it's official. In case anyone missed the recent announcement, the official HP rating of the LS600hL is 444 HP, with a combined MPG rating of 29.7.

    TagMan
  • Where did you find this announcement from? Lexus hasn't issued a press release concerning this.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    I don’t buy this notion of exclusivity with the 600hL. First of all, that’s not what Lexus is about. They are about more for less. Second, hybrids are targeted for the mainstream. None of the other Toyota/Lexus hybrids are exclusive in any manner right up to the GS450h. By limiting production across the board they are taking the temperature of the market so they can budget, produce and price accordingly.

    Also, it costs a helluva lot more to manufacture hybrids, so until the profit margins can equal or better approach those of cars with lone internal combustion engines Toyota would be stupid to go all out right now with hybrid production. All of this has absolutely nothing to do with exclusivity. If anything, Toyota/Lexus is exclusive as a company in its position on the hybrid leading edge, but this is very different from the cars themselves being exclusive because the goal is to price them reasonably and for the company to profit by way of volume sales.

    As I alluded to previously, I think the early 600hL adopters are going to be delighted with the price, even if they will be hard to acquire at first. I expect the same price parallel and impact as all of the hybrids that preceded it. The only difference is that this is the LS level. This does not change the hybrid mission, it merely emphasizes it and makes it all the more real.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    I beg to disagree...

    What Lexus has been so far (to now), is different from what Lexus looks forward to being (now to future). How do you raise the profile of your badge ? You need some halo cars, you need some exclusive product that people aspire to acquiring but which are limited. Toyota had the Century in Japan - a very limited production, exclusive and halo car, right up to today. And this car is the most exclusive Toyota sedan today.

    So Lexus' plans would include a way to enhance its image, and enhancing image is not mass-producing a high-end, ultra modern, high cost sedan such as the 600h.

    BTW, let us distinguish a mass-produced, econobox Prius from a GS-h or LS-h. These couldn't be any different in philosophy. The hybrid mission differs between a Toy or a Lex. The Lexus HSD products will encompass "performance" as the key hybrid driver, whereas Toyota-h cars emphasize MPG.
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Question: is the LS exclusive? If so, then the hybrid will be exclusive. Fact is, the LS is not exclusive. Thus, I don't see how this can be expected of the hybrid version.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    Question: is the LS exclusive? If so, then the hybrid will be exclusive. Fact is, the LS is not exclusive. Thus, I don't see how this can be expected of the hybrid version.

    The hybrid version will be exclusive. For starters, Lexus aims this car at the S600, A8 W12, 760iL, or even higher. And at this rarefied field, sales are miniscule not large. So, in terms of sales, YES, it will be "exclusive".
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    Where did you find this announcement from? Lexus hasn't issued a press release concerning this.

    It's my understanding that Lexus has indeed annouced it ahead of the upcoming Paris Auto Show.

    See if this link also confirms it.

    link title

    TagMan
  • cyclone4cyclone4 Posts: 2,284
    This article is quoted as saying 29.7 per imperial gallon in the intro portion of the article and that this corresponds to 24.7 mpg. But when one reads the meat of the article, it says 29.7 mpg. So, which is it? The 24.7 figure seems a little low while the 29.7 seems a little high. I wish they would get it straight ;-).
  • sysweisyswei Posts: 1,804
    I think "imperial" refers to English units. The 24.7 would be U.S. gallons I think...but possibly still measured using UK procedures. EPA mpg may differ...my guess is, slightly lower.
  • I can tell you Lexus has not made any official statement regarding horsepower or mileage.
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    I can tell you Lexus has not made any official statement regarding horsepower or mileage.

    So, you suspect that the headline "official Lexus LS600h horsepower and fuel economy revealed" is not
    quite so "official" afterall?

    Gosh . . . and to think I was excited that I might have found incredibly relevant info, and of course, my immediate reaction was to share it with all of you. I guess we'll have to wait and see if it is accurate or not.

    That headline, then, is terribly misleading, if it turns out to not be true.

    TagMan
  • Its possible that those are the official figures, and that they have been leaked or otherwise obtained by the source, but as far as Lexus press relations goes, they haven't given out that information.
  • oacoac Posts: 1,594
    TagMan:

    This info and link had already been provided in this forum 4 days ago ;)

    oac, "2007 Lexus LS" #2505, 27 Aug 2006 10:15 pm
  • tagmantagman Malibu, CaliforniaPosts: 8,441
    That explains it . . . I got back from vacation that night and started posting again the next day on the 28th without carefully reviewing all the prior posts. It therefore escaped me, but I'm not surprised that if anyone else here were to have posted that info, it would likely have been you! I wouldn't expect less from ya. ;)

    TagMan
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