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Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

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  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Sorry, totally lame argument. Comparing the nicely dialed in Audi AWD suspension to the poorly calibrated suspension that was implemented on the IS-F (and seemingly all ISs for that matter), and then using the results as some sort of a validation that AWD is better is disenginous at best. You might as well compare the Audi to a Camaro or even an old Caprice, as the IS is decidedly NOT a world class AWD machine.

    Regarding steering feel, that was an odd comment because Audi has had that whole steering feel thing dialed in since the late 1970s or early 1980s, FWD, AWD, it makes no difference, they've been doing good in that department for a very long time.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    Comparing the nicely dialed in Audi AWD suspension to the poorly calibrated suspension that was implemented on the IS-F (and seemingly all ISs for that matter), and then using the results as some sort of a validation that AWD is better is disenginous at best.

    I assume the lame BMW AWD suspension is not, as you say, dialed in.

    In any event, the point was made as it is felt, period. Take it or leave it. :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    Regarding steering feel, that was an odd comment because Audi has had that whole steering feel thing dialed in since the late 1970s or early 1980s, FWD, AWD, it makes no difference, they've been doing good in that department for a very long time.

    I know AWD in BMW sedans is relatively new and will no doubt improve. Do you really think Audi handling performance is that much better 335xi vs. an A4 awd?

    Sorry for the lame question in advance...just trying to gain some perspective. ;)

    Regards,
    OW
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    From a technical perspective, I believe that the Audi AWD system is superior to the BMW version of the truth, errr, except the lame Haldex system on the likes of the A3 and the TT. I do know that if I was feeling the need for an AWD car (as unlikely a thought as that may be), I'd most likely opt for an Audi over an otherwise similar BMW.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Do you really think Audi handling performance is that much better 335xi vs. an A4 awd?

    I think there are too many varieties of fruit getting into the basket for meaningful comparison here. As Shipo said, the AWD RS4 "winning" against the RWD IS-F is hardly a validation of anything.

    As for BMW's vs. Audi's AWD systems, IMO, Audi's gets more accolades because the alternative in the A4 is a ho-hum FWD system that, frankly, didn't feel as nimble or tight as my TL 6-speed back in 2004 (and that's not saying much). Other than it's still too damn heavy, I would have to recommend the AWD A4 over the FWD A4 for almost any driving condition.

    With the BMW, you are comparing their AWD system to arguably the best balanced, best handling RWD sedan on the market. Now that AWD added weight, imbalancing effect etc. becomes much more apparant, IMO.

    You have already gone on record as stating that you prefer the handling of the 330xi over the non-sport 330i. I can't speak directly to that, because I've only driven the sport versions of both and have an opposite preference. And virtually all of the enthusiasts I know (who are better drivers than me) go in favor of the RWD versions of both the 3 and 5 series for performance. But in the end, there is still as much subjectivity to this equation as objectivity. My sence of "heavy" may be your sense of "planted" - and it appears from just this forum there are people who prefer a heavier, planted feel over a lighter, more nimble one. So be it.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    hey habitat if that don't scare you, go on u tube and watch, boogatti and other scary awd friends, MASSACRE rwd kids!

    I guess those boob tube videographers didn't invite the RWD SSC Ultimate Aero TT?

    From Wikopedia:

    The first run clocked 257.41 The return trip came up with 254.88 for the previously mentioned average of 256.18 besting Bugatti Veyron's speed by more than 2 mph (3 km/h). The results of this test, verified by Guinness World Records on October 9, 2007, gave the SSC Aero the world's fastest production car title.[5]

    So sorry to take the wind out of your sails, Joe, but at least now when you are in fantasyland, you can fantasize about a car that is not only faster than the Boogerati, but about half of its price. Such a bargain.

    I'm sticking a little closer to the surface of planet Earth when it comes to my car preferences, but dream away my friend. ;)
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    It seems at the SEMA show they built an AWD Mazdaspeed 3.
    It's in the Edmunds article on SEMA.
    Supposedly it's an STi killer. I could go for something like that if it's stock and the price is right.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    This is not the place for an ongoing debate about RWD vehicles vs AWD vehicles. We have a perfect place for that right here: FWD, AWD, RWD and the Luxury Performance Sedans.

    Thanks.
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    Wait the new Mazdaspeed 3 built at SEMA has a chance at production and is in fact AWD. How is that off topic? It's fast and will hold it's own with many other cars like the BMW 325xi etc...
    For it's price there is no other AWD that could touch it certainly not the feeble WRX! So for the money it would be the Ultimate AWD. Plus a useable hatchback style body.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's not a sedan, though. (Nothing wrong with that, but this is a sedans thread)

    I haven't sampled the latest BMW 3 series AWD models. I've driven the X3, but the AWD system has been revised since I've been behind the wheel.

    I linked to the article more to show that Edmunds' ultimate sports sedan happens to be AWD. Not to compare Audi's Quattro to Lexus' RWD IS.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Sorry if you thought I was responding to you, I was not. Several previous posts prompted that one of mine.
  • THAT'S ALOT OF CANDY, for the upcoming RS6, i just read that it should outright beat the M5.

    but who knows what those guys at bmw have instore for 2009?
    anything twin TURBO scares me, especially a M5 awd twin turbo.

    we will see!

    until then safe & fun driving gentleman :shades:
  • yep, you win top speed, but thats it.
    at the track you loose, at 1/4mi. you loose, at 0to60, yep you loose, and every other catagory, bugatti wins, even in braking.

    thats enough wind for my sails!

    maybe the doubled price has it's many reasons.

    safe & fun driving gentlemen. :shades:
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    It's not a sedan, though. (Nothing wrong with that, but this is a sedans thread)

    Oops! :blush:
    You've got me on that one although I'd still like to see a AWD MazdaSpeed 3 and an AWD Mini Cooper S for sale! ;)
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    The first run clocked 257.41 The return trip came up with 254.88 for the previously mentioned average of 256.18 besting Bugatti Veyron's speed by more than 2 mph (3 km/h). The results of this test, verified by Guinness World Records on October 9, 2007, gave the SSC Aero the world's fastest production car title.[5]

    I'm sorry but to me 2mph seems like a really small thing when the weight of the driver would have an effect at those speeds. Also lots of cars including Jet Dragsters will easily go faster than that in the 1/4 mile but don't try and turn them. :surprise: :P
    I'll still take the Bugatti over an Audi.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    I love this stuff!

    PML Builds 640hp Electric MINI

    Surely it can't be an Electric Mini?!

    While all the world's most famous motoring names look on, a British company, PML, has chosen the UK's most prestigious motor show as the venue to strip away all the misconceptions surrounding electric/hybrid vehicles and to showcase a truly awesome car. Featuring four revolutionary electric wheels, the standard BMW Mini One you can see on Stand 270 is predicted to have a top speed approaching 150mph and to out-accelerate a Porsche 911 Carrera from 0-60mph. Brake horsepower is a stunning 160bhp per wheel - 640bhp in total.

    The car, dubbed the Mini QED, has been designed to run for four hours of combined urban/extra urban driving, powered only by a battery and bank of ultra capacitors. For longer journeys at higher speeds, a small conventional internal combustion engine (ICE) is used to re-charge the battery. In this hybrid mode, fuel economies of up to 80mpg can be achieved.

    Explains Martin Boughtwood, PML's MD: "Until now, most electric vehicles have been little more than souped-up milk floats, limited by range and speed, with compromised performance. For those with a green conscience who also value an enhanced motoring experience, there is still something missing.

    "Working in partnership with our customer, Synergy Innovations, we set out to demonstrate what our electric wheel technology is capable of. We simply took a standard BMW Mini One, discarded the engine, the disc brakes, the wheels, and the gearbox. These components were replaced by four of our electric wheels, a lithium polymer battery, a large ultra capacitor, a very small ICE with generator (so small it almost fits alongside the spare wheel), an energy management system and a sexy in-car display module."

    The benefits of PML in-wheel drive technology are;

    * It is adaptable to other vehicle chassis
    * It eliminates the need for gearing and mechanical drive train
    * It allows more space inside the car

    The vehicle has three driver-selectable modes of operation:

    * Eco mode for town/city frequent start-stop driving;
    * Normal mode for daily commuting and ICE- equivalent operation, and
    * Sport mode for super car performance.

    Other notable features include:

    * No (mechanical) brakes means returned energy!

    All braking is performed by the wheel motors acting as very efficient electrical generators which return almost all of the energy back to the battery system. The beauty of this dual-circuit, ultra safe system is that your green conscience can be quite content even when accelerating hard, since you are assured of collecting most of the expended energy when it is time to slow down rapidly.
    ABS as standard - even when accelerating

    Because the wheels are high performance motors, ABS comes as a standard function built into each wheel's software. Now anti-skid can also be applied to acceleration since the motor can smoothly control torque delivery to/from the road in both cases. Flooring the brake or accelerator hard merely results in controlled maximum torque, giving the shortest possible stopping or acceleration time.

    Clever wheels

    The technology eliminates the need for crude differential gears to share power between left and right sides. The wheels are in constant communication with each other deciding 1000 times each second how much torque share is optimum for the current driving conditions. Should one wheel detect a slippery surface and take appropriate anti-skid actions, the other wheels are aware of this instantly and adopt an appropriate compensating strategy to keep the vehicle as stable as possible.

    640 brake horsepower - for life!

    Each wheel develops 160bhp - 640bhp in total. The original Mini One develops less than 100bhp with an engine that weighs nearly double the weight of the four electric wheels! Apart from wheel bearings there are no wearing parts in the electric wheels; this means the horsepower stays for the life of the vehicle - and beyond.

    Simple, safe, versatile charging

    As the battery level reduces, the rear mounted ICE/generator starts to automatically top up the battery. So when you arrive at your destination you can simply park the vehicle knowing that when you return the battery will be replenished. Alternatively you can take advantage of lower cost mains electricity and plug in to recharge. So you never need to worry about battery capacity or how to recharge. During operation, as the battery level falls the generator cuts in, enabling an average speed of 60 - 70mph to be sustained with no further battery depletion.
    Super capacitor - super acceleration

    Capacitors are used to store electrical energy. The difference between batteries and capacitors is that capacitors can release/absorb their energy 10 times faster than a battery. For acceleration or power boost at higher speeds the capacitor enables nitro-like performance, more than doubling the power from the battery during these events. Very efficient energy recovery means almost nothing is wasted during stop/start city travel.

    Energy flow management

    A significant key to super performance is optimum energy management which continuously decides where the energy flow should be - battery, super capacitor, generator or wheels. By clever optimisation of the flows, best use can be made of available reserves, enabling a fun driving experience whilst protecting the planet.
    Small engine and generator

    The small ICE weighs a mere 15kg (less than 1/10th of the original Mini One engine) and delivers peak power of 20kW and continuous power of 15kW. A high efficiency electrical generator is fitted to the engine to provide power when the battery depletion level demands. The key point is that the engine is run at a continuous speed and load - which results in optimum efficiency fuel conversion. After delivering the energy to the battery system the mileage equivalent translates to between 65 and 80mpg!
    In-car display

    With all this advanced technology the driver needs to have clear and complete information presented. The in-car display module uses the latest touch screen technology with intuitive display and scroll options. Selectable driving modes allow economy mode to sport boost mode at a touch. Displaying available mileage allocated by battery and fuel along with boost status, the display gives comprehensive information. As well as standard speed, diagnostic and status functions, the display is GPRS enabled allowing future options of:

    * Remote diagnosis of any fault
    * Auto tracking of speed limits (optional!)
    * Auto management of generator to prevent inner city operation
    * History storage and system configuration interface

    QED: What Next?

    Having developed it's high performance in-wheel drive systems, PML worked in partnership with Synergy Innovations to demonstrate, once and for all, that envi
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I would love to see an AWD Speed3 as well, so all is forgiven. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Oddly enough, weight actually does not have any effect on top speed, only how long it would take to get there.

    So driver weight won't make a difference. You just might need a longer track.
  • Oddly enough, weight actually does not have any effect on top speed, only how long it would take to get there.

    So driver weight won't make a difference. You just might need a longer track.


    I don't know if I totally buy that. There is a force going down (mass*gravity), and I could see how that affects acceleration, but then there are things like the coefficient of friction/rolling resistance (with its function of mass)that affect the amount of energy required to get to a certain speed.
    Since this is theoretical anyway, it while both cars should achieve the same speed, it might take the heavier car an infinitely longer time to get there than the lighter one.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    Next year will see sales of the 1-series Cabrio start as well as the arrival of the next-generation 7-series.

    The new saloon will feature for the first time options for AWD, pneumatic air suspension and a hybrid model.

    Regards,
    OW
  • tiff_ctiff_c Posts: 531
    I don't know if I totally buy that. There is a force going down (mass*gravity), and I could see how that affects acceleration, but then there are things like the coefficient of friction/rolling resistance (with its function of mass)that affect the amount of energy required to get to a certain speed.

    Weight does matter, on a street car probably not much but in facing everything is as light as possible. Then they will add weight if they need to to bring it within the regulations. I read all about the power needed to overcome drag and how it's exponential but that was some time back.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I would love to see an AWD Speed3

    Ahh....me too. Won't happen :sick:

    Anyone here bring up the new GT-R?? Not too shabby from what I have been reading. It does sound more profound if I were to say "I'll be outside washing and waxing my Porsche" rather then "I'll be outside washing and waxing my Nissan"
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    GT-R...not a sedan.

    Regards,
    OW
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Your right, my apologies. Forgot about that.
  • i love awd sedans, also love turbo powered engines.
    was upset when audi stopped producing turbo powered engines.
    this was one of the major reasons why i purchased the bmw 335xi & also feel it's a good candidate for, ultimate awd sedans.
    not saying,the RS4 aint a sweet awd vehicle, it's just that the cost & the potential, for the twin turbo engine of the 335xi, really gets me going!

    safe & fun driving gentleman!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They still have the 2.0FSI, but you probably mean on their higher end sedans.
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  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 843
    Have you tried high performace winter tires?

    Krzys
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    The bar has just been set higher. Take a look. If this makes it onto an S4 with bi-turbo/SC IL6, the 335 will be surpassed for sure.

    link title

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,372
    Here is some ultimate slush in the GT-R

    image

    Perhaps this will find it's way in Nissans of lesser performance capabilities.

    Despite the published photos, it's something else to see the car in the flesh. Even more impressive is the car's performance, courtesy of a 3.8-liter twin-turbo V-6 that pumps out 480 bhp and about 430 lb.-ft. of torque. Nissan claims that the GT-R runs to 60 mph in 3.5 seconds, which puts it in Porsche 911 Turbo territory. In fact, GT-R project chief, Kazutoshi Mizuno, says that the GT-R lapped the famed North Course at the Nürburgring faster than the Porsche 911 Turbo. Not bad for a car that we hear will cost about $70,000. The car goes on sale first in Japan, then in the summer of 2008 in the U.S. as a 2009 model. R&T was the only magazine to drive a U.S.-spec model.

    Regards,
    OW
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