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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions

callmedrfillcallmedrfill Posts: 729
edited March 7 in Mazda
 

   After having driven the new Mazda 3 and seen reviews, I want to hear speculation on it's future cousing, the MazdaSpeed 3. This car the (3s sedan) is probably the closest facsimile to the 325i I have yet seen, in looks, size, poise, and handling. Very refined, similar dash to BMW, good smooth power but you could tell this car is planted! Very impressive.

 

   What I loved was that it was so quiet and the power wasn't peaky (Honda) or loud (Corolla XRS) that it moved like a car with a larger engine. Which it does have, with 2.3 liters compared to the comps' 1.8-2.2 engines. My question is can the (ancient) Duartec V6 fit in the 3?

 

   The power is right on the competition (220HP vs. SRT-4 230HP, Cobalt 205, XRS 170HP, WRX 227) A V6 would offer a nice marketing advantage. And I doubt Mazda will spend the coin to make 2 seperate super-4 engines of different size and strength for the 6 and 3.

 

   

  So what's the story?

 

  DrFill
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Comments

  • ambullambull Posts: 255
    The MazdaSpeed 3 will use a detuned version of the turbocharged 4-cyl engine soon to be seen in the MazdaSpeed 6. It is not that difficult to modify that engine. I don't think the Duratec V6 would fit in the 3's engine bay. Even if it did, it's heavy enough to throw off the Front/Rear balance and adversely affect handling.

    It is supposed to be FWD, not AWD as in the MS6.

    Also, I think it will debut in 2006, not 2007.
  • That could offset the weight gained up front. That would be be quite a tune-down! 40-50HP?

     

      I believe that if Audi can fit a 4.2 liter V8 in an A4 (not much bigger than a Mazda3, but bigger), Mazda can make a small six work.

     

      Expect the unexpected from Mazda.

     

       

    ' DrFill
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,876
    The title of this discussion has been changed, since there's no known date for release of an updated 3.

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  • Probably wouldn't need to reduce power by that much. It would be the same 2.3l-Turbo engine (with upgraded rods, etc) that's in the Mazdaspeed6. We know the engine can handle 274hp (Mazdaspeed says more).

    However, in a lighter vehicle, without AWD, the problem is putting the power down. It they add a limited-slip differential, and some suspension mods, the power reduction can probably stay somewhere around 250...right on par with the latest SRT-4. Too bad the price will be much more than the SRT-4.
  • big_guybig_guy Posts: 372
    I had heard that they were going to turbo charge the 2.0L engine from the base Mazda3 for use in the Mazdaspeed Mazda3 :confuse: ... of course everything is just speculation and rumour at this time.
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    In case you did not spot this Edmunds article here is the news (not rumour) to make us all salivate! :)

    Mazda Gets Ready to Launch 256-horsepower "Hot Hatch" Version of 3
    Date Posted 04-20-2005

    HIROSHIMA, Japan — Mazda is readying a 'hot hatch' version of the Mazda3 — and we're talking jalapeño! The 3 MPS (Mazda Performance Series) uses the same 2.3-liter engine as the bigger 6 MPS, and this could make the car the hottest hatch on the market.

    The 6 MPS puts out 256 horsepower — way more than the VW Golf GTI (197 hp) or the forthcoming Opel/Vauxhall Astra VXR (237 hp). This should give the 3 MPS a 0-to-60 mph time of below 7 seconds — blistering performance.

    The 3 MPS will debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September and will go on sale shortly after. Its aggressive styling affirms Mazda is quickly shaking off its fuddy-duddy image, helped by the RX-8 and MX-5 sports cars.
  • gambit293gambit293 Posts: 406
    I hope Mazda doesn't detune the 2.3 just for the sake of keeping the mazdaspeed6 "more powerful" and therefore higher on the hierarchy. I hate when manufacturers do that.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Posts: 116
    When I first heard about the Mazdaspeed3, it was listed as having 220 HP. That would be fine with me, it will still compete with the WRX and SRT4. Don't get me wrong, though; I would love to see 256 HP on the 3!

    Considering Mazda's mis-statement of RX-8's horsepower and the delays in getting the Mazdaspeed6 to market, I'm taking a "believe it when I see it approach."

    Is there any interest in the Mazdaspeed6? Am I the only one put off and disappointed by the unexplained delays?
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    kronogoose said: Is there any interest in the Mazdaspeed6? Am I the only one put off and disappointed by the unexplained delays?

    Do you know whether it was to be built in the Hofu factory in Hiroshima which was damaged by fire a few months ago? That might explain some of the delay.
  • qddaveqddave Posts: 164
    I heard from my dealer that they delayed it because of insufficient launch resources. Mazda's launching the MX-5 and the MX-CrossSport (9?), not to mention a refresh of the 6 and obviously working on the Mazdaspeed3. I heard rumblings of the RX-7 as well. That's a lot of programs. Although, I also have this feeling that they went back to the drawing board to find a few more ponies under the Mazdaspeed6's hood to keep up with the competition.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    The delay is related to quality control and fixing some bugs before shipping the car.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    Don't forget they're also launching the Mazda5 this summer!

    Meade
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    They should fix a lot of things before releasing it. From what I've read in reviews the MS6 is pretty disappointing. Heavy, pretty slow, weird handling (AWD doesn't push the majority of power to the rear...what the blazes?!).

    The Mazdaspeed3 could be a nice competitor to the Audi A3 (at least for me).
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    Where did you see a review of the Mazdaspeed 6?
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    Does anyone have information about the approximate price of the upcoming Mazdaspeed 3? It's likely that it would be priced higher than the Mazda 3 SP23 edition, but would it be +10%, +20% or (gasp) more?

    Also, what would you consider to be the major selling feature? Is it the increased horsepower or is it the "package"? The SP23 looks like a neat package but with the same 160 hp engine of the s model. Is the Mazdaspeed 3 be an SP23 with a turbo?

    Also, to which cars would you compare the Mazdaspeed 3. Is it in the Subaru WRX and Acura RSX Type S league or somewhere else? This league is much pricier than the current Mazda3 lineup but, I find, Mazda quite often offers more value than its competition.

    My take: if the Mazdaspeed 3 offered the perfomance quoted in the media (200+hp) and was priced under a Subaru WRX or Acura RSX Type S, this could be a very hot product.
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    It is most likely going to be more than an SP23 with a turbo. Every mazdaspeed product released to date has had some suspension work. I dont see any way that this will be any different.

    As for the competition, the WRX may be a strech. Most reports about the mazdaspeed3 say FWD. This will be a setback if you are cross shopping the two cars since the power numbers should be the same. If I were to give competitors, I would say the RSX Type S, GTI, SRT-4, and as a bit of a stretch the Cooper S.
  • gib11gib11 Posts: 47
    A review dating from 2-2005 "Le Monde de l'Auto"in Canada states (I translate):
    Beside's the back seats that dont fold no more, the MSP6 show's conviviality and good manners for the whole public. Hable to show performances reserved for more tuned sports cars, the MSP6 can perform remarquably well... available probably this summer at a base price of 35,000.$... Real good deal!"
    4stars out of 5stars
    0-100km/h = 6,6sec.
    4c. 2,3lter ID, turbo
    274hp at 5500 rpm
    280p.f torque at 3000rpm
    fuel consumption 8,8l/100km

    some other comments:
    "at 100km/h (62mph) the motor seems to be relaxing at 2,300rpm"
    "It can go from 80 to 120km/h in 5,3 seconds"
    "much of the power is gain between 2,500 and 4,500rpm, in third gear, you can easely accelerate from 60 to 100"
    "red line starts at 7000rpm"
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    Here is a list of some contenders to the future Mazdaspeed3.

    4 cylinder contenders (in price order)
    Mazda 3 s
    U$18.7; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 5 speed; 160 hp ; 150 ft. lb. ; weight = 2826 ; EPA= 25 / 32
    Mini Cooper Type S
    U$20.4; 1.6 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 168 hp ; 162 ft. lb. ; weight = 2679 ; EPA= 25 / 32
    Neon SRT 4
    U$20.6; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 220 hp ; 245 ft. lb. ; weight = 2900 ; EPA= 22 / 30
    Mazda 6 i
    U$21.5; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 5 speed; 160 hp ; 155 ft. lb. ; weight = 3102 ; EPA= 23 / 31
    Acura RSX Type S
    U$23.7; 2.0 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 200 hp ; 143 ft. lb. ; weight = 2840 ; EPA= 23 / 31
    Mazdaspeed 6 (for comparison)
    U$28.0; 2.3 L ; 4 cyl. ; 6 speed; 274 hp ; 280 ft. lb. ; weight = 3589 ; EPA= 20 / 26

    6 cylinder contender
    Volkswagen GTI
    U$22.3; 2.3 L ; 6 cyl. ; 6 speed; 200 hp ; 195 ft. lb. ; weight = 3036 ; EPA= 21 / 30

    If the Mazdaspeed3 gets approximately 220hp and 200 ft lbs.of torque, weighs under 3000# and sells for under U$23K this will be quite a package. :) The information is derived from Edmunds.
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    Mazda has said 250hp.

    There is no way the Mazdaspeed3 will compete with the Mazda6i. The 6i is much slower and much larger than the Mazdaspeed3.
  • nitionnition Posts: 3
    Where do i find information on the Mazda3speed because i am a big fan of mazda and i just dont know anything about it :confuse:
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    Mazda has said 250hp ...
    Actually the 256 hp is a number reported (see post #7 for the Edmunds report) but not officially stated by Mazda, as far as I know. In any case, as kronogoose has pointed out Mazda has occasionally exaggerated its predicted horsepower, so some skepticism is warranted and hence my and kronogoose's more conservative number, 220hp.

    Mazda6i ... is much slower and much larger than the Mazdaspeed3.
    Agreed. The reason the Mazda6i is in the lineup of contenders is to show what can go wrong when it was upgraded to the Mazdaspeed6. The Mazdaspeed6 remains a 4 cylinder but with astonishing performance numbers, AWD and other choice improvements. However, Mazda added nearly 500# and inflated the price by nearly 33% (U$6500) also. Was AWD the source of most of the weight and price gain in the MSP6? Wouldn't it be better to have AWD as an option? Here's hoping that the Mazdaspeed3 inherits the best and leaves the rest. :D
  • s0seng02s0seng02 Posts: 7
    It would be foolish to change AWD standard feature to optional.

    With that much of power it is going to generate tremendous torque steering to the front wheels and the car is going to lose all its sweet handling charm. Have you ever driven a Nissan Altima 3.5 SER or a Maxima? You can feel how a FWD car with 250+ hp can ruin the handling of a car.

    It is known that a AWD or A RWD has a better handling capability than a FWD, although there are certain exceptions.
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    It would be foolish to change AWD standard feature to optional ... Have you ever driven a Nissan Altima 3.5 SER or a Maxima?

    Hmm, would you call the 210 hp Acura RSX Type S a foolish car because it does not have AWD? Making something an option means that you as a consumer have the choice. Autoweek speculates that the AWD will not be offered, I hope they are wrong and that Mazda offers it but as an option:
    Mazda is reportedly assembling a 256-hp MazdaSpeed performance version of the Mazda 3 hatchback. The car will use the same 2.3-liter turbo­charged four-cylinder engine that powers the MazdaSpeed 6 sedan (Dec. 20, 2004) but loses 18 hp and more than likely won’t get big brother’s all-wheel drive. Look for the MazdaSpeed 3 to debut at the Frankfurt Motor Show in September.

    If they do detune the speed for the Mazdaspeed3 from 274 hp to 254 hp (or as I suspect, about 220 hp) could it be because they removed the AWD? This could help segment Mazdaspeed3 in terms of performance and price from Mazdaspeed6 and the other models. Currently, the overlap of the Mazda3 s and the Mazda6 i must be a source of confusion.

    In any case, September is only a few months away, so we'll all know the answer about the Mazdaspeed3. Cheers and happy driving this summer!
  • roseyachtroseyacht Posts: 1
    I like Mazda 3 also ,but china without it.

    I envy you.

    ^_^
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    In case you haven't seen last week's episode (#918) of Autoline with John McElroy which discussed the consolidation of the auto industry with the industry expert Richard Spitzer, Global Automotive Practice Leader at Accenture, go to www.theautolink.com

    GM seems to be ready to move into consolidation mode by using brand pairing akin to Toyota/Lexus, Honda/Acura and others. This brand pairing helps the manufacturer to consolidate different models into mass volume models and luxury models. The Mazda/Mazdaspeed pairing is one example. This forces the manufacturer to think through their lineup, remove redundant models, and then brand the model according to the target. The Autoline discussion focussed on the current GM mess and its confusing lineup. GM announced plans to consolidate their lineup into one major pairing: Chevrolet/Cadillac. The Buick Pontiac and GMC brands are being brought together into something called the BPG channel and their future is being worked out. Saab and Saturn are on the periphery and seem to be treated as niche products.

    This logic seems to be useful not only for the manufacturer but also for us consumers by forcing clear branding. Cadillac is a wonderful success story and if GM can wrestle the rest of their brands into line many observers of the American autoindustry will breathe a huge sigh of relief. Otherwise, the Japanese (and possibly Chinese) behemoths are ready to step in and show them how. Mazda is a wonderful example of an auto company that is thinking through its future production in an intelligent way.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,458
    I would be real interested in the 220HP FWD version if it stays under 3,000lb. That would be sweat.

    If you get up over 250, it needs the AWD, and will likely become a porker. The FWD should have all thehandling of the 3S, and more.

    Torque steer shouldn't be too bad. I think the 3 chassis is prety well designed to control it already. Plus, the turbo helps, since they tend to be slightly soft off the line anyway. The high speed punch will be the payoff.

    A FWD model will compete with the COoper, CIvic Si, GTI, etc. The AWD 250HP version (if there is one) would be going against the WRX, etc.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "I would be real interested in the 220HP FWD version if it stays under 3,000lb."

    Sounds extremely do-able to me considering the current 5-door SP2.3 has a curb weight of around 2850 lbs. AWD would not only add weight but also add cost and sacrifice mileage. Plus, you'd have to have a higher output motor to offset the added weight/driveline friction just to get essentially the same straightline performance.

    I also agree on who the targeted competition should be, although you may have left out the Neon SRT-4. I think Mazda should let the MZSPD6 compete as a more adult alternative to the WRX.
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    In case you have not alredy read this article in Edmunds News, hold on to your seats! Imagine if the Ford and Mazda engineers were working together!


    Ford Looking at Hottest Hatch Version of Focus
    Date Posted 06-07-2005

    COLOGNE, Germany — In Europe, the "hot hatch" is king of the road. And the hatches are getting hotter.

    Volkswagen is already planning a super-fast V6 Golf called the R32, but that could be trumped in the 0-to-60 stakes by Ford.

    According to U.K. magazine Autocar, Ford is considering a 350-horsepower, four-wheel-drive, six-cylinder turbocharged Focus RS. This would be ready by 2007 and would become the performance flagship for its best-selling range, above the already-announced front-drive, 217-hp Focus ST hot hatch.

    The Focus RS would be powered by a tuned version of a new compact straight-six engine being developed by Volvo. The power plant will make its debut in the new Volvo S80 next June. It is shorter than Volvo's current five-cylinder engine — so short, in fact, that it could fit transversely under the hood of the Focus.

    Ford executives are evaluating the concept and expect to make a decision before the Frankfurt Motor Show in September.

    What this means to you: A 350-hp Focus may sound good, but don't get your hopes up just yet. We have yet to even see the second-generation Focus that's already on sale in Europe, so anything resembling the RS is a long way off.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    We have yet to even see the second-generation Focus that's already on sale in Europe, so anything resembling the RS is a long way off.

    Ford here in the U.S. has said that car will never make it here, so I wouldn't get my hopes up about this European pocket-rocket ever making it to our shores.

    Meade
  • m3gtm3gt Posts: 8
    Pictures of Mazdaspeed3 have shown a beefier tail pipe.... wow! ... Now if you've seen any young mans pimped up Civic well you've already seen this a 1000 times....

    Ok I have to say this... now we're talking over 200Hp in this beautiful little machine.... where is the DUAL EXHAUST?? Is Mazda a little whoosy??

    Am I the only one thinking this? Would others disagree - Hell I think the M3GT should have a dual exhaust.....

    Quebec boy.
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