Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions

1235727

Comments

  • A good option, doh!

    Good job, rorr. I didn't check the fine print.

    Dodge will definitely have the larger Caliber SRT-4 at 300HP, and under $25k, so Mazda has it's work cut out for it, if they detune the 2.3. More than 25HP less would really make it a tough sell. Unless you just want less?

    As the MazdaSpeed6 hasn't expactly set the sales floor, or the mags, on fire, I'd leave the engine as is in the 3.

    DrFill
  • Why? Perhaps Mazda prefers to save some weight, save some gas mileage, and save some complexity, save some packaging headaches, and save some cost.

    U r correct. They must be on the floor. Mazdaspeed isn't about simple, cheap, frugal, etc. That is left for the i, S, or SP editions. Mazdaspeed is about, well, speed, agility, over the top - u know "zoom zoom." AWD with some type of LIMITED stability control = Mazdaspeed.

    Mazdaspeed 3 without AWD vs.
    2007 VW GTI R32 AWD
    Audi S3 (A super/turbo charged Audi A3 with AWD)

    Doesn't look good for Mazda. But, what the heck, its cheap, has less weight, and can't hold a straight line 0-60
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "...and can't hold a straight line 0-60."

    Hey, I didn't know the Mazdaspeed3 had even been tested yet. Where did you read it can't hold a straight line?
  • ...as well as an R32 or S3 (I'm assuming if Audi were to make a bad boy out of the A3 they would call it the S3)with AWD.

    Sorry, but my money is staying in my pocket until Mazda decides to bring a worthy competitor.

    Oh and as far as real cost associated with AWD, Mazda had some good choices. Obviously, one was to borrow the AWD from the speed 6 with some mods to fit the speed 3. The other was to borrow the AWD from Volvo with some upgrades to handle the power/torque. It is more profitable to expense tools where many more copies are made off the same tool. Ford is doing just that by borrowing the AWD system of the speed 6 for the Zephyr (soon to be ZSK or something like that). And I'm sure the same AWD will trickle down to the Mercury Milan and Ford Fusion. But not to the badly needed speed 3.

    Perhaps, what Mazda is fearful of (if the speed 3 were to have AWB) is taking away sales from the speed 6 and other AWD vehicles (e.g. Tribute, CX-7). Case in point, the Mazda 5 looks like a great candidate for AWD (regardless if it ever becomes a Mazdaspeed). But it will never, ever happen for fear of sales cannibalization. Too bad, really. The market should be driving vehicle design, not vice-versa.

    Hey, how about an AWD speed MX-5???
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Sorry, but my money is staying in my pocket until Mazda decides to bring a worthy competitor."

    A worthy competitor to.....?

    You seem to assume that the target for the Speed3 is the WRX/Evo. Why? An Audi S3? You are aware that the current AWD version of the A3 (the 3.2 Quattro) is damn near a $35k car. What do you think an S3 version would run?

    I was under the impression the target was the more along the lines of the GTI or Civic Si. Or perhaps the upcoming Dodge Caliber SRT; all of which are relatively inexpensive FWD cars.
  • Nah, never assume. The auto industry is moving towards AWD, even in the subcompact arena.

    Mazda, the corp., decided what market they wanted to play in with the Mazdaspeed 3. IMHO, Mazda should have reached for a more "higher" market. If they had, again, IMHO, they could have had all of them beat. The speed 3 doesn't need to be great in any one category, just good at all (something like the Jack of all trades and master of none).

    I believe the Mazdaspeed 3 will come in somewhere around $24k; I would be happy enough to pay another $4-$6k more for an AWD version with stability control. No Nav; no power seats; no cruise control; get rid of the radio, too . Make it sing; make it dance; make it put a smile on my face. Forget the streets; give me a racetrack.

    I'm guilty of being an enthusiast of which I make no apologies.
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    The speed 3 doesn't need to be great in any one category, just good at all (something like the Jack of all trades and master of none).

    I agree although I view it differently. Like other consumables, a car can be seen as a package which is distinguished by something greater than the sum of its parts. The Miata is the perfect example. In the case of the Mazdaspeed3, it does not have to be the most stylish, the fastest, the cheapest; but it does appear to me that Mazda is offering in its speed version a stylish, fast and (relatively) inexpensive combination that is exceptional. Of course, one could add more features (like AWD) but that would add to the cost and diminish the package; one could cut the cost but that would likely compromise its functionality; one could boost the horsepower by cutting the amenities. That does not appear to be the combination that Mazda is offering nor that would interest me. Mazda looks like it is positioning the car within its lineup as a step up from the current Mazda3 sport but below the Mazdaspeed6 / RX8. Sounds good to me.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The other was to borrow the AWD from Volvo with some upgrades to handle the power/torque

    The AWD system in th MS6 is from Volvo, with some mods. It id the Haldex AWD system.

    Perhaps, what Mazda is fearful of (if the speed 3 were to have AWB) is taking away sales from the speed 6 and other AWD vehicles (e.g. Tribute, CX-7).

    Thats kinda like saying the Subaru Impreza steals sales from the Subaru Legacy. Also, the Tribute is 4x4, not AWD, and the Tribute and CX-7 are SUV's, not performance compacts.

    If the Mazdaspeed3 goes on sale in 2007, as reported, this will be the first time 2 current Mazdaspeed vehicles have been in production at the same time. I still think it will be a 2008 model, but, I could be wrong.

    Case in point, the Mazda 5 looks like a great candidate for AWD (regardless if it ever becomes a Mazdaspeed).

    I would happen to agree the Mazda5 would be great with AWD, I hope we do see it. I don't think there will ever be a MS5.
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    ... it will be a 2008 model
    You could be right if they wanted to build even more demand than there is already. My feeling is that there are too many current and anticipated competitors (Civic Si, Dodge Calibre, even the venerable Toyota Corolla has a boosted version) for them to delay bringing out the model later than this fall or next spring. Assuming the Geneva pictures get supplemented with some specs and pricing there will be a mad clamour for this vehicle by X and Y gen-ers.
  • Well, then, I can honestly say that I hope the MS6 fails miserably so that MS3 acquires its AWD.
  • I still don't understand why Mazda has to play with its own: other Japanese made vehicles. Supposedly, Mazda used the BMW 3 series as its benchmark when it produced the 6. Excuse me, but where is the RWD??? If they want to play, then they should play, not sit on the sidelines.

    So far, the reviews on the MS6 have been great but the comparisons have not earned it the number 1 spot. I don't know about you all, but it bugs me knowing that a subcompact costing $10k less has AWD and the MS3 does not.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Supposedly, Mazda used the BMW 3 series as its benchmark when it produced the 6. Excuse me, but where is the RWD???

    The MS6 was built to compete with the BMW 325Xi and 330Xi. Those two vehicles have X drive (AWD). Also, it was built to compete with the Legacy GT, and Audi A4 Quattro 2.0. I really do not understand how the A4 came in first, let alone beat out the MS6. I drove both at the drive event in Dallas, TX for Mazda. The A4 was slow, interior was a bit out dated, and felt like a heavy Jetta.

    Back to the Mazdaspeed3. I really do not know what Mazda is trying to accomplish. All I know is that they are not going after STi, or EVO. You have to remember, Subaru and Mitsubishi have Rally heritage, Mazda does not. The STi and EVO are rally cars. Mazda does have race heritage, on pavement! So, it does make sense to make a FWD car, but, it must be better then whats out there now in compact FWD cars, and still be affordable. Also, since it will wear the Mazdaspeed name, it should be more then just a bump up in the Mazda3 line. It should have much more in it then the regular production Mazda3.

    It is really easy to sit here and speculate what Mazda will do. But, considering the Mazda knows how successful the Mazda3 has been, I think Mazda will do as much as they can in the car, with it being FWD. Let's see what they have to show us in Geneva.
  • If what u r saying pans out, then Mazda should be adding things like traction control and/or limited slip and/or stability control. Anything less would make the MS3 an econobox on steroids.

    As far as Rally heritage is concerned, why does the MS6 get AWD while the MS3 gets stiffed??? BTW - does the MS6 have some sort of stability control (too lazy to look it up)?
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Details on the new Mazdaspeed3 are still sketchy. However, I agree that the car will need a limited slip diff for the front as well as stability control. Limited slip diffs are beginning to be more common on FWD sportscoupes (the new Civic Si has a standard LSD).

    "As far as Rally heritage is concerned, why does the MS6 get AWD while the MS3 gets stiffed???"

    What Rally heritage? Mazda HAS NO rally heritage; that's the point. They aren't in competition with Suburu or Mitsu. Why is it that Mazda introduces a single AWD model (brand new in just the last few months) and you suddenly seem to think everything in their lineup should offer AWD?

    "BTW - does the MS6 have some sort of stability control (too lazy to look it up)?"

    Yes. Stability control (and a rear LSD) is standard on the MS6.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    If what u r saying pans out, then Mazda should be adding things like traction control and/or limited slip and/or stability control. Anything less would make the MS3 an econobox on steroids.

    Thats what I think Mazda is going for. I do not know is LSD and DSC will be on the MS3. I think they should be, and it would be the smart thing to do. But, we will have to wait and see.

    With no AWD and reduced power from the MS6, it's obvious they are not going after the STi/EVO crowd. If they were, the car would be $27-$28K, that's too close to the MS6.

    P.S...I like the econobox on steroids comment :D
  • Mazda introduced an AWD vehichle because that is where the trend is. Sure, Audi, Volvo, and Subaru have had it for what seems like forever (although, I think, only Subaru still participates in Rally - Audi and Volvo only have hertiage). So, it would only be natural to expect the MS3 to have AWD. Besides, over a year ago, Mazda people had begun to imply the MS3 would not have AWD in an attempt to save weight, though I think it was more of a PR thing.

    I don't know for sure, but I'm sure there are at least a couple of MS3 samples that Mazda built with AWD. The fact of the matter is Mazda doesn't want the MS3 to eat the MS6's lunch - not in horsepower, handling, nor (perceived) performance. Rally or rally heritage has nothing to do with it.

    As a Mazda fan, I feel it's my obligation to ask for more and expect even more. For example, where is the wagon verion of the MS6 (and please don't give me that weight excuse)? A 275 hp AWD MS6 is where it should be.
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    Mazda doesn't want the MS3 to eat the MS6's lunch - not in horsepower, handling, nor (perceived) performance.
    Agreed. That would be counterproductive; you're supposed to battle the competition not your own brand. Also, if my hunch is right, then the MazdaSpeed6 is going to be much pricier than the MazdaSpeed3, so they will be clearly demarcated in the eyes of the consumer.

    For example, where is the wagon verion of the MS6 (and please don't give me that weight excuse)? A 275 hp AWD MS6 is where it should be.
    Can you say cross-over as in CX7. From what I hear, this platform may be used on several models so I would not be surprised if it ends up on a wagon somewhere in the Mazda/Volvo/Ford product lineup.
  • Finally. Thank you. Mazda is more concerned about cannibalizing its own sales than that of its competition.

    Wake up Mazda. Is there a Subaru product without AWD??? What about an Audi product line? Ditto for Volvo?

    Now that that discussion is over, there may be a "silent" agreement between Mazda, Ford, and Volvo, created during the early design phase of the C3 architecture. Something like Volvo is the premium brand so only Volvo can have an AWD for the C class line of vehicles built off the same architecture. Before everyone gets their undies all in tizzy, I have no proof, just hypothetical. But definitely conceivable.

    My beef is real simple. If the MS3 doesn't get AWD, neither will the regular 3s. And that's a shame. Maybe someday in the distant future they may add AWD to the MS3. And it will take that much more time for AWD to trickle down to basic models.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    Would mazda increase sales enough to pay for the additional design and testing expense of AWD? The 3 is at build capacity now...so they would have to reduce the production of fwd units to build awd...This means they would have to increase the profit margins to pay for the additional design, testing, marketing engineering expenses? Does that make sense when Mazda is selling every 3 they can build worldwide without incentives?

    Subaru is a good example. They have banked everything on awd. They sell very sell in the northeast but their sales south of the snowline is minimal. Alot of folks see no benefit to awd if there is no snow...
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Would mazda increase sales enough to pay for the additional design and testing expense of AWD?"

    Good point. The design and testing expense for the turbo 2.3 was already done for the MS6 (and due to Mazda's desire to use this drivetrain in the upcoming CX-7). But you couldn't adopt the AWD system from the MS6 to the MS3 easily (cheaply) because they are completely different floorpans/chassis. However, the AWD sytem developed for the MS6 is useful for the CX-7 (same chassis).

    I also wouldn't be surprised if Ford comes out with an AWD version of the Fusion since it is also based on the Mazda6 chassis.

    "Alot of folks see no benefit to awd if there is no snow..."

    Um, yes. It's a bit of a stretch for me (living here in central Texas) to really understand the desire for AWD. Personally, I would put AWD at the BOTTOM of my personal pecking order for preferred drive configurations.
This discussion has been closed.