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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories

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    bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Maybe if you bought the car you really wanted you wouldn't need to get rid of it after only three years.
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    manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    I thought about it, and decided to hold out for the car I want. I really want the subaru legacy GT ltd; the mazda 6 would not satisfy me in the long run. If I can not afford the car I want, I will stick with the camry. Note that, when I bought the camry, it met my needs, but not my wants. However, money was really tight then and the car was cheap.
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    1. Get your own low rate financing before you go shopping.

    2. Test driver until you find what you want.

    3. Get educated on the cost of what you want via sites like this.

    4. Solicit bids via email or dealer websites for ITEMIZED out the door prices.

    5. If you have trade get educated on that too.

    6. Go to your dealer of choice, bring a printout of your lowest bid, and work it out.

    That is basically how we did it. We got a bad deal on our trade - but the best deal out there on it.

    We got a better rater from the dealer (by about 2% - they like a challenge), we got the best deal on our Honda Pilot.

    Based on time invested pre-dealer visit. We were in and out in under 2 hours.

    And it was without a doubt the best deal we ever got.
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    manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    stupid question: what is an itemized out the door price? Out the door price means everything. If you are saying show every item used to get the itemized price, then you are potentially setting yourself up for a painful ordeal. OTD price means how it gets there does not matter.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    is a waste of time, especially if you're trying to field blast faxes and e-mails to several dealers.
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    bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    Is it reasonable for an internet buyer to ask for an OTD price?

    For example, if I send out an Email specifying the exact kind of car I want and the exact options I want, is it reasonable to ask the dealer for an OTD price?
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    in fact, in ANY conversation, you would want to compare OTD price, especially if you're shopping several dealers - getting down to the penny lets you know if one store has a higher doc fee or admin fee, in a way, letting you know what kind of store you're dealing with and preventing a runaround situation.

    A common trick with unscrupulous internet-savvy stores, like one in Hickory, NC, where I talked with a guy before buying my wife's new truck, is to shoot you an incredibly low price, then hit you on the backend with another $600-800 in fees, and of course, kill you on your trade.

    I was locked into buying a Dodge Ram 4x4 from them, and after a week of contact and MUCH communication, finally found out they were planning to add a $500 fee after giving me my price. Also, the guy made a second run at me on my trade, dropping $1500 from their initial offer..hmmm...
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "is a waste of time, especially if you're trying to field blast faxes and e-mails to several dealers. "

    maybe I'm the exception, but this week I emailed 14 different Honda dealers within a 25mile radius of my house asking for pricing on the EX-L v6 w/ nav and a few dealer installed things.....10 of them got back to me. After some back and forth with each to make sure we were all talking the same language/specifics, I got down to OTD prices based on MD T&T and found a range from $27,772 - $29,720. This afternoon I dropped by the Honda dealer closest to me (who I hadn't emailed) to check out color combos and give them the oppty to match my lowest price.....as it turned out, they had my number 1 choice in color and they beat my low price by another $72 for good measure. If I'm doing my math correctly to back into the "purchase price", email blasting got me ~$580 under invoice on a car that seems hard to come by in this area.

    Total email time was ~4hrs done at my convenience over a few days and total time spent in the dealer was ~2 and that included 20min test drive of the vehicle I was buying and getting good price on my trade.

    Based on my experience - the next time I'm buying a car, once I know which one I want, there is no reason to shop any other way.

    Rich
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "Is it reasonable for an internet buyer to ask for an OTD price?

    For example, if I send out an Email specifying the exact kind of car I want and the exact options I want, is it reasonable to ask the dealer for an OTD price?"

    when working exclusively on the net - also be sure to verify if they have the car in stock, and ask if there is a restriction on the price in case they need to order it.
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    rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,332
    .. **as it turned out, they had my number 1 choice in color and they beat my low price by another $72 for good measure.** ..

    Lets see if I have this right .. you burn up 3/4 hours of your time and burn up 3/4 hours of other salesmans time - and you find your price and your vehicle at your local dealer..? .. why didn't you just do your research first, then go to the dealer..? This is pretty pathetic, I don't know if I would be bragging about this one ..l.o.l...



    Terry.
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    jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    My method of buying a new car is fairly simple - I tend to buy makes that have a lot of supply (my tastes seem to be out of the mainstream a little bit), and once I find an advertised price that I like on one I want, I go to a dealership, find the newest salesperson (they are anxious for the sale, and I'll have to speak with the sales manager to get the price I want anyways), and ask them if they will match the price. 9 times out of 10, they will. If there is a minor option that I would like that is not on the sale car (say, less than $500), I offer to pay list price on the option just to move the process along, and after all, negotiation is a two way street. It also gives me the leverage in refusing to pay high documentation and/or processing fees.

    The only time it didn't work was on my wife's (girlfriend at the time) 2000 Corolla. I always love Toyota dealerships - after they spend an hour talking about how reliable their cars are, they spend an hour in the F&I office trying to explain why you need an extended warranty. Then the browbeating on job-loss insurance began.

    My strategy worked well on my 2000 Intrepid R/T, though looking back, I should have bought another Grand Marquis instead - it is a much more durable vehicle. My next purchase is another Grand Marquis LS Ultimate, and Mercury dealerships are especially accomodating on the Grand Marquis - they know you will be back to buy another one eventually, as they get a lot of repeat business, and the discounts are huge (I was offered $11,000 off of a list price of $33,000 on a choice of four leftover 2004 Ultimates). The problem is my 11 year old Grand Marquis refuses to wear out, so it could be a few more years.
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    manamalmanamal Member Posts: 426
    For me, the main issue is knowing what I want and what my needs are, and balancing them. I have bought a lot (too many) cars lately, though not as many as some Alaskans.

    For me, there are four issues when buying the car (in no particular order):

    - Space (can I and my stuff fit in it)
    - Comfort (does my arm go numb)
    - Driving experience (I like a sporty ride)
    - Cost (Duh...can I afford it)

    So, space and cost I can research on the net (I nee at least 38" of headroom, for example).

    Comfort and driving experience need to be evaluated. In my last car purchase, my camry and enough space, in comfortable, and was affordable. However, the driving experience leaves me bored. I joke that the car is dangerous because it will put me to sleep. So, because I want a sportier ride, I am looking at buying a new car. I will probably buy a Subie Legacy, execpt, the cost is a little high. The Mazda6, which is more affordable does not fit me ideally.

    Or I can learn to be happy in my Camry.

    As a wise car dealer often says: Buy what you like....
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    tylerjb1tylerjb1 Member Posts: 39
    First off, this is very, VERY long. If you just want the juice of the final sale, go to THE JUICE.

    I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this site over the last few months. The stories from sales personnel and from buyers have provided countless hours of entertainment and insight.

    That said, it AMAZES me the lengths some buyers are willing to go to in order to save a quarter per cent on their purchase. Some people have WAY too much time on their hands. Look, decide what a fair - FAIR - price is, and if you find a salesperson and dealership whom you trust, JUST BUY THE DARN THING.

    Now that I've established that I'm holier than thou, here's my story:

    I knew I wanted to buy an '05 Nissan Maxima. I checked Edmunds for the TMV, I grabbed my credit report to check my beacon (722), and I mentally listed the local Nissan dealerships in my area in order of preference. I figured I'd start at the top and work my way down until I found one with the vehicle (color, options, etc) I wanted. I wasn't worried about getting a good price, because these days, getting a decent price isn't nearly as difficult as some people try to make it. With TMV, it should be a piece of cake. At least in my area, it IS cake.

    I'm a very cordial fellow. I want people to like me and I'm eager to show respect toward others. I've encountered some people on here who seem to think the best way to get a good price is to do whatever they can to drive the salesperson's image of self worth into the ground. Why is that necessary? My strategy was this: establish OTD fees up front, know what financing I qualify for, make an offer at invoice, and accept the counter-offer if it's below TMV.

    Now, I realize that my strategy is a little arbitrary. However, I'm not interested in nickel-and-diming this experience to death. Will I leave some cash on the table? Probably. Will I get a "good deal"? In my opinion, it will be fair for everyone. If I can't get TMV, I wait until I can. If I can avoid it, I don't wait until I'm in a crucial bind to replace a car.

    Now, in my area (Columbus, Ohio) I have 4 Nissan dealerships from which to choose... and from a quality standpoint, they're quite easy to rank. In fact, let's do that now:

    1. Buckeye Nissan
    Excellent service, very low-key salespeople. A previous experience left a very good taste in my mouth.

    Salespeople here are adequately familiar with the product. They're not gurus, but the average consumer will learn a thing or two here. They'll acknowledge your presence about 5 or 10 minutes after you arrive, and you'll have some breathing room if you want it. They key in to subtle hints.

    2. Nissan North
    A bit of an unknown, but gets the #2 rank by default...

    3. Germain Nissan
    Part of a large local chain. Of the local chains, Germain is probably the best, but that's not saying much. Two previous experiences involved a few minor shenanigans.

    Salespeople here know very little about their cars, but are quite eager to "help". They'll kick the tires, point out the gas cap, and show you that cool, understated "pop-the-hood" trick. "Hey look! There's the engine!!!"

    4. Ricart Automotive
    This is where you go after you declare bankruptcy and decide you've "outgrown" that Ford Mustang you leased last month. A laundry list of class action lawsuits haunts this place.

    Salespeople here know they sell cars. Despite their lack of helpfulness/usefulness, they'll be ready to pounce from the ledges when you arrive.

    So I start at the top. I have two color combinations in mind. The Maxima comes fairly loaded out of the gate, so there aren't many options to muddy the waters. I wanted the Driver Preferred Package (leather trim, Bose system, etc) but not the Elite Package. Pretty simple stuff.

    Now, my search began in the beginning of February. I wanted to purchase the car after I got back from a vacation I was taking the following week. I wasn't under the gun, but I wasn't screwing around either. I'm not one of those people who needs to turn a car purchase into an 18 month search for "The One".

    I visit Buckeye (#1) and check their inventory. I tell the salesperson (Gunnar White - very nice guy) what I'm looking for and what my timeframe is. He checks his inventory and says that he doesn't have the car in either of my color choices, but he has several on the lot with the correct options. He says he can bring one in from another dealership. I explain that I'm a little finicky about bringing the car over from another dealership. I intend to keep this car for the duration of its entire life, and I want one with very low mileage and one that hasn't been redlined on our outer belt during its break-in period. I explain that I understand it's a little anal, but this is my first vehicle PURCHASE (I'm through leasing), and this is my baby. He understands completely.

    He lets me test drive one of the vehicles and I love it. I get back 30 minutes later (I don't need 18 months to find a car, and I don't need 24 hours to test drive one) and I thank him for his time. I explain that I'll be ready to buy in two weeks and if he has an SE in stock with the DPP in either of my color choices, he has my business. I know I can make this commitment to him before discussing price because I had just previously assisted my sister in the purchase of an X-Terra from this dealership, and they aren't out to gouge anyone's eyes out. I'm confident we'll arrive at a fair price.

    I get back from vacation about a week and a half later and, unfortunately, Buckeye does not have a vehicle in stock nor do they have one on the way. If I was a patient man, I probably would have waited, but I'm not so I didn't. I didn't take up much of the salesperson's time, so I don't feel too guilty about extending my search, although I do wish I could have purchased it there. I am curious as to why their stock was so thin. I think they had 5 Maximas, and 3 were identical vehicles (down to the color). Weird.

    Nissan North (#2) had a pitiful stock. Also only had 5 Maximas, but they were all the lowest trim package. They were quick to follow up on an internet inquiry I made with them, as was Germain (#3), but they had zero stock. Moot point.

    Germain also called me up soon after my internet inquiry. I said that I noticed on nissanusa.com that they had the vehicle I was looking for and I asked for a price. The internet manager said he could give me 1% over invoice. This was actually below TMV. I asked about fees, and they said they charged a $100 "doc fee", whatever the heck that is. OTD, it was a good price and still below TMV. I told him I'd give him a call back in the next few hours.

    THE JUICE

    For good measure, I wanted to check out the Infiniti Q35. I visited a dealership nearby and I liked the car, but frankly, it's steering was pretty stiff and I didn't much care for the salesperson who, after I told I was strongly considering
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    tylerjb1tylerjb1 Member Posts: 39
    THE JUICE

    For good measure, I wanted to check out the Infiniti Q35. I visited a dealership nearby and I liked the car, but frankly, it's steering was pretty stiff and I didn't much care for the salesperson who, after I told I was strongly considering the Maxima, proceeded to degrade it in every way imaginable. After a short Q35 test-drive, I called the internet manager back at Germain and asked him to verify that the vehicle in question was on the lot. He assured me he was staring right at it. I told him I was on my way.

    I went back home, rounded up my wife and two children (6 months and 18 months, but both very well-behaved), and drove 25 miles to Germain. As I'm stepping out of the car, the internet manager approaches me. I introduce myself and he gives me the "oh man, you won't believe this... right after I talked to you [LESS THAN AN HOUR AGO!] someone else sold your car!"

    "Go figure."

    "Yeah, I can't believe it."

    "Say... where is the lucky fella now? I'd still like to look at the car, as I haven't seen this combination in person before."

    "Oh he just left with it."

    "Wow... he must have set a land speed record. My sister just paid cash for a car over at Buckeye and it still took us an hour and a half."

    [Our discussion is quite playful and jovial, but he can sense I'm busting his chops a little - I'm not happy that I've towed my wife children across town all for nothing]

    "Yeah, I'm real sorry about that."

    "Well, since I'm already here, I'll see what else you have in stock."

    "Take your time... if you find something you like, I'll still give you the 1% internet offer."

    I look around and they actually have a color option in stock that I hadn't seen before or considered, but I liked it. I take it out for a short spin, it drives well, but doesn't pull me out of the irked mood I'm in. The stench of bait and switch fills the air, but this guy seems genuinely sorry for the trouble. Despite his sincerity, no one buys a car in 45 minutes... especially not at Germain.

    "Well, I like this color combination, and it has the options I want. I'll sleep on it. Take care."

    To my surprise, he let's me leave without any hassle.

    After I get home, I decide to check Ricart's stock. I really didn't want to give Germain my money, but I detest Ricart. Thankfully, they didn't have much of a stock either. I drove up there with my sister and her boyfriend and there were not one, not two, but THREE car jockeys surrounding our vehicle before we had even opened the doors. Folks, it was truly pathetic. I actually laughed out loud at this monkeys. They literally looked like vulchers.

    "What are you looking for today?"

    "Nothing. We'll let you know if we need anything."

    I've been in sales before. It's a rough life and it takes a special person to not only succeed in it, but to actually be helpful to your customers. Like isellhondas. THAT'S a salesperson (I'll need an Odyssey in about a year isell... can you sell long distance?). These guys were a farce. I can put up with a lot, but there's something about getting pounced on before even exiting my vehicle that just rubs me the wrong way.

    Anywho, they're inventory stunk. In fact, they didn't have a single '05 on the lot (all the other dealerships had '05's... no '04's). Ricart had about 8 Maximas, and they were all '04's that looked like they had been rotting on the lot for a year. Good... looks like all of those bad CSI's are starting to take their toll. If a planet-sized meteorite careened into the center of this forsaken auto mall, I'd do a little dance. Naturally, I would hope it would happen at night when no one was there (or at least only when there were no customers... you know, like right before they open).

    The next day, I gave Germain some hard thought. They had the one car in town I wanted. Buckeye had nothing on the way. I wasn't in a real jam or anything, but I don't like to turn these things into life-monopolizing affairs, and I've already wasted one weekend.

    So I pulled the trigger at Germain.

    "Hey Mr. Internet Manager, I'm back. Let's write that car up."

    I filled out my loan app (I wanted Nissan's 2% APR). I didn't yank my wife out with me this time, so I arrived with my Power of Attorney in hand. For those that don't know, this gives me the ability to act as my wife. In this case, I wanted her to cosign on the loan. Line one of the PoA states "...the right to lease, borrow, blah blah blah blah". Well, I guess this was enough to cause the F&I guy to spring a leak. He comes over to me and my salesman:

    "I don't know what this thing is, but we don't take these here."

    "What do you mean you don't 'take these'? It's not a coupon for a free car. It's a legal document giving me the right to act on my wife's behalf."

    "Well, we need her here to sign the papers. You can't sign them for her."

    "The very first line of that document says I can, and it's been signed by two witnesses and it's been notarized."

    "Sorry."

    "Well, I'm putting enough down on the thing that it shouldn't need her anyway, so just run it through with just myself on there."

    So we got that behind us and we were smooth sailing, that is, until the official "sit down" with the F&I underlord. While I do maintain a level of respect for respectable salespeople, I've yet to find a justifiable reason to not spend one second more with an F&I guy than is absolutely necessary.

    "Hi, I'm Seth, and I'm just here to fill out the paperwork and get you into your new car!"

    Business as usual, until the warranty garbage comes up. He shows me some stupid grid with 6 or 7 different warranty packages. He gives me the rundown on package 1. I say no. He moves to package 2. I say no. Package 3. And so on and so on. Obviously, this is designed to wear you down while gradually decreasing the price. By the time we get to the second to last one, I'm getting irritated and so is he.

    "Seriously man, I just want to buy the car. I want to give you my check for $5,000, and I want you to give me the payment I agreed to for the term I agreed to. That's it."

    "Well, let me show you this last option. It protects the rims of your cars."

    "What?"

    "It protects the rims from becoming warped or dented."

    "Aside from a sledge hammer, what the heck is going to warp my rims?"

    "Potholes, debris in the road, etc."

    In all fairness, potholes are a major problem in my area, but at this point I'm beyond irritated. I'm waiting for this chump to try to sell me an air plan for my tires.

    "You know, Seth, I've never had any damage done to my rims... and I've done some pretty crazy crap in my time."

    "But have you ever run over a muffler in the road?"

    "I ran over the wheel - not the tread, the WHEEL - of a semi at 65 miles an hour. First it hit the front driver's side wheel, then the rear. I blew out both tires. Miraculously, the delicate rims survived."

    "Wow, you
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    tylerjb1tylerjb1 Member Posts: 39
    "Wow, you were pretty fortunate. Let me see what I can do for you."

    "Here, I can actually give you this plan for $20 less."

    "What do you mean '$20 less'?"

    "The price of the car will actually be $20 less."

    Now, despite the fact that I have a fairly extensive mathematical background, I'm actually terrible with numbers... especially on-the-fly. I was very careful throughout the whole process to make sure that nothing changed, financially, unless I initiated it and I fully understood exactly what was going on. This guy was screwing that up, and I saw confusion on the horizon. Nothing in life is free, especially at car dealerships. For the first time throughout this ordeal, I felt as if someone was trying to slide something by on me. Like I said earlier, I'm a pretty easy going guy. I like to joke around a lot and I can stick to my guns while keeping things light. But, the quickest way to piss me off and turn me into a rude, pissy, inconsiderate customer is to treat me like an idiot. Now, I may actually BE an idiot, but I'm smart enough to recognize when someone has decided to take a swipe because they've sized me up as too dumb to know better.

    "How do you get me that warranty for $20 less?"

    "Through the structure of the deal."

    "No kidding. That doesn't my question."

    "It's just the structure of the loan."

    "What ABOUT the structure of the loan. What keys did you push to do that."

    "Well, it's a bit complicated, but you come out ahead $20 and you get your rims covered under warranty for 5 years."

    "It can't be too complicated... you banged it out in 30 seconds."

    "Well, I see you're not interested in it, so I'll just take it off."

    "NO. I want to know EXACTLY what you did to save me $20 and get me that warranty. What part of the 'structure' did you change to achieve those figures?"

    "Well, honestly, I don't really understand it too well myself, so I'll just take it off. I know you're not interested."

    "You knew I wasn't interested in any of this a half hour ago, but whatever. Let's just finish this."

    I probably could have drilled him further on it, but I had already made my point. In hindsight, I still don't know what he could have done to do that. It's also interesting to note that, at this point, I had been at the dealership for 3 hours. Remember that guy who bought my car the day before and got in and out in 45 minutes?

    All told, I was there for close to 4 hours. My salesman, aside from the a potential dishonesty about the original vehicle, was nice. The F&I guy SUCKED, and the time it took SUCKED. I knew exactly what I wanted when I got there, I had everything ready, had good credit, etc. I can't decide how I'm going to handle the CSI. I know for sure the F&I guy is screwed, but I can't decide how to handle the salesman. There is the slight possibility that my car really was there the day before, and I don't want to hurt this guy if it was an honest slip. At the same time, I think I was reminded 18 times to give them all good scores, and I've since received 3 letters and 4 emails reinforcing the point. I hate that. If you're not confident enough in your service that you feel you need to pound the survey into my skull, then maybe something is wrong.
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    First of all, thank you to the many contributors on this message board over the last month; your input was a huge help in getting what I believe was a very good deal on the car I purchased yesterday......yeah, yeah, yeah, I know - if I'm happy with it, then it was a good deal ;-)

    For those that are interested, here's the quick rundown on my latest purchase experience. A couple of weeks ago, I spent an afternoon test driving different cars so I could decide which vehicle I'd purchase......I settled on the Accord EX-L V6 w/ navi.

    I live in the MD suburbs of DC where there are literally 16 Honda dealers within a 25mi radius from my house. Using the honda.com website as a basis, I spent about 75-90 mins going to each dealer's site to request a "quick quote" for the car. The only dealer I didn't email was the one where I took my test drive - more on that later. In the emails/notes to the dealerships, I always used a respectful, business tone, but by including things like purchase intent date and asking a few poignant questions about color combos/availability and additional costs, I think I was able to convey the fact that I was a very real buyer and not someone casually poking around the net. And if that hadn't been successfully communicated it at that point, I think it became pretty clear to most dealers soon thereafter as almost every response I got let to at least one followup email to make sure the OTD price really included things like: dest fees, doc processing, which dealer installed extras were included, accommodations for MD taxes and tags (as opposed to VA), etc.

    Again, in each email back and forth, I generally thanked the person on the other end for their time, help and speediness of response (if applicable).....yeah, I know this is their job, but its still nice to be appreciated.

    10 (now 11) of the 14 dealers got back to me with OTD prices ranging from $27.7 (but not in stock in the color I wanted) thru $29.7.....best price I had on an in-stock vehicle was $27.9.

    My next step was to figure out what color combos were acceptable for me so for that I could do the next cycle of emails which was to clarify availability of the specific model/color/options I wanted. Yesterday I stopped back at the dealer closest to me where I had done my test drive and I asked for the salesman that had helped me. I told him that I had been trading emails with all the other local dealers, but stressed that I hadn't contacted his dealership since I didn't want to make commission issues complicated if I did end up buying there......the relief that came across his face at that moment was very noticeable. I went on to explain that I was there to look at color combos and once I was done with the email search, I'd come back in and give him the oppty to match the best offer since he had legitimately invested the most time with me.

    We walked through the lot looking at each of the color combos. They only had 2 of the models with navi, and as it turned out, one was my first choice for color. I told him the best price I had received so far for an instock model and asked what he thought.....withOUT going to his manager, he played with some numbers and said it sounded like a legitimate quote and that he'd take another $100 off if I bought that afternoon.

    Done.

    A quick call to my wife to have her come look at the car and test drive it with me, and we were set. While I truly believe a second round of emails would have saved me another $200-$300, I found a lot of value in having the purchase finalized AND from the dealer closest to my house.

    In all - I must probably spent close to 4hrs (at my convenience) doing emails and keeping track of final prices/options from each dealer. Of course, another few hours were spent at the dealership yesterday for color research, test drives and paperwork. In all, I spent maybe 6hours to get, what seems to be, a very good price in light of what I'm reading in the Prices Paid boards.

    I know some people love to go to dealerships and do "the dance", but with two kids at home and limited time on the weekends, this was a whole lot easier and controlled for me. Hope others find this helpful!

    Rich
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    bobstbobst Member Posts: 1,776
    I thought that if I asked for an OTD price, I would get a mesage kinda like, "We will sell you the car for $100 over invoice. Come in and we will talk about it."

    We are going to buy a car in a few weeks, and I will be interested to see how responsive the dealers are.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    then you make the trip and find out they plan on adding 14 different fees for a $600 bump...
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "I thought that if I asked for an OTD price, I would get a mesage kinda like, "We will sell you the car for $100 over invoice. Come in and we will talk about it." "

    at least for me - i found dealers to be responsive via email....some dealers though needed a bit more help than others in getting to an OTD price. Some gave me the info I needed right away, others had to be reminded that I wanted a price for X car, Y options, delivery, whatever they were planning to charge me for doc processing, taxes, tags, etc....in the end, I got OTD prices from 9 dealers.

    If you want to be in and out WITH the car, the harder part is verifying what's in stock....if
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    Well it is a reverse engineered final sales price.

    It tells the buyer what tax is, what the fees are, if there are any dealer packs, what they cost and include. It tells you the buyer the price of the car, plus all fees that in the end allow you the buyer to make apples to apples comparisons.

    For example, I got my new 05 Pilot for under invoice, I also got lifetime inspections, and several oil changes. In my dealers 'package' pack I got a few other things that other dealers did not include.

    But most importantly I was able to compare quotes/bids acurately and as needed show them to the dealer that I wanted to work with.

    Finally, it allowed me to NOT have to waste any precious time at the dealer. I was in and out in under 2 hours.

    I had my own financing, but for 'fun' I was offered the chance to get a better rate, so I took the time - that was at least 1 of the 2 hours.

    So, if I had passed on that aspect, I'd a been in and out in 1 hour.

    No exageration there.

    When we arrived, we were shown the car, we finalized some paperwork, they looked over our trade, we did the finance thing, we did the aftermarket thing.

    And, then left.

    Following the very simple instructions turns the table or rather levels the playing field.
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    Oh really? Well I pity you and your area for not evolving.

    Frankly in my area (DC burbs) we have evolved. I was looking at Toyotas, Chevys and ended up wiht a Honda Pilot.

    I got detailed quotes from about 20 dealers total.

    About 8 from Honda dealers - once we decided that was what we wanted.

    See, around here, they all have email addresses, and they all have internet sales depts.

    So, to say they won't reply or they won't play is well, stupid on the dealers part.

    I assure any buyer, invest time in emailing via direct email addresses, or via the dealers website, have your own financing lined up, and make your deal via the net, with a follow-up call. It may be around 4 hours over say 1 to 2 weeks, and when you arrive to do paperwork, you will have your deal, no surprises, and often have the dealer get you a better rate.

    Or, do it the old fashioned way, don't do any homework and spend all day there - I have done that too.

    Having seen and experienced both sides - I prefer the newer approach.

    IT WORKS
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    Disrespect on your part aside, it's not a matter of evolving, it's a matter of picking through 100 vague, non-specific e-mails requesting that we lose $1000 (behind invoice) from people 700 miles away to get to 2-3 real leads.

    We're not stupid, just careful, and have found that if someone's serious about buying a car instead of just exercising their writing ability, we'll get an e-mail or phone call requesting an appointment for a face to face meeting where you can see and touch the car, and hopefully, take it home.

    I've had people e-mail for six months straight and never make a decision - where is it in a dealer's budget to allow for a salary for a guy to privide consumer entertainment like that?
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "We're not stupid, just careful, and have found that if someone's serious about buying a car instead of just exercising their writing ability, we'll get an e-mail or phone call requesting an appointment for a face to face meeting where you can see and touch the car, and hopefully, take it home. "

    right - i get that, but I also tried to address it in the emails I sent directly to each dealer - telling them that I've already test driven the car at a local dealership and that I prefer email communications for now as I'm quite busy between work and a family. I tried to make it as real as possible giving very specific detail on what I was looking for and asking what the price would be. If they didn't want to play, that's fine, but they lost out on the chance to sell a car to a very real buyer.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    ALL of the e-mails say that - they generally read "I'm buying within the next few days, and I've narrowed it down to 3 vehicles, and would like a quote from you on a XYZ Model SE, in dark blue with a greay interior, luxury and sport package, navigation, but no sunroof (doesn't exist on the planet)..."

    We're left to call you, but many people intentionally don't leave a number, or take an hour to run a locate, get the sales manager involved, call a sales manager at a neighboring store that has the specific model, or close to it, but they won't talk to us, because YOU'VE already contacted THEM...the best effort is a guess, and hope you'll choose us, but the dealer across town won't release it as a trade because they're already working a deal on it - WITH YOU.

    Argh....
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "Lets see if I have this right .. you burn up 3/4 hours of your time and burn up 3/4 hours of other salesmans time - and you find your price and your vehicle at your local dealer..? .. why didn't you just do your research first, then go to the dealer..? This is pretty pathetic, I don't know if I would be bragging about this one ..l.o.l..."

    yeah - but I'm not so sure what's funny. 3-4 hours of my time emailing back and forth with 10 local dealers to get an apples to apples comparison so I can see who has the best price and what it is. Went to my local guy to ask a question or two, let him know that I was shopping the price around, and in exchange for his help both that day and the previous day when I test drove, I'd be back to give him the chance to match the best price as he had taken the most time with me.

    Seems like the emailing WAS my research, and then I went to the local dealer (who, as it turns out, didn't have the car I bought listed in their online inventory). This was the car I wanted, but I didn't know what TMV was. The Edmunds site is great, but their reported TMV doesn't mean anything. Gathering prices from 10 dealers gave me a TMV, and then I got in lower.

    Could I have squeezed out another $200-$300? Probably, but there was value in not spending another 1-2 hrs with followup emails, there was value in not having to have the car ordered, and there is a ton of value in buying from the same dealer I'm likely to get my car serviced at.

    Am I bragging? Not really.....its just a system that worked for me in terms of time spent and the final purchase price. And as for "time spent", yeah, I burned 3-4 collective hours of 10 other sales peoples time....that averages out to 21 minutes per salesman. Am I supposed to feel bad?
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "We're left to call you, but many people intentionally don't leave a number,"

    umm...can't you email them back? If thats how they contact you, thats probably how they prefer to be contacted.

    On the other hand, maybe you should work for honda.....i had a grand total of one option (navi)....maybe thats why those guys got back to me.

    Oh, and for what its worth, I am taking the time to send every single salesman who dealt with me an quick email thanking them for their time and letting them know the resolution of my search.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    "telling them that I've already test driven the car at a local dealership"

    So without knowing what number we have to hit, since you won't share the figure you got from the guy at that dealership, after you took a couple hours of his time, we can work up a shot in the dark? If that dealer let you go, it's either with a lowball, or a number I won't hit, so what's the point?

    and that I prefer email communications for now as I'm quite busy between work and a family

    Hey, you know, we're all important - I mean look at me - I have a wife and three kids, two car notes, a house payment, and another house payment, plus I consult for lawfirms as an expert witness AND work as a sales trainer for a large dealer group.

    At the same time, I don't consider myself too important to take an hour or two out of my busy week to get my head in the game, pay attention, and work face to face with someone considering I'm making a $20,000 - 50,000 purchase that I only make once every 3-5 years...

    It's that rush around, "look at me, I'm important" attitude that naturally leads to small details being missed, the worng options selected, increased blood pressure, and being angry with everyone, including yourself, after the deal is done because you left something out or didn't ask the right question.

    On the first of last two vehicle purchases, I got with a buddy over the phone, drove out to Pittsburgh with the family, talked numbers to finalize everything, and had a real buying experience and delivery.

    The second purchase was a truck for my wife, I dropped into the dealership, sat down with a guy I'd sent business to, went over options and pricing, struck a deal, they located a truck, and we picked it up two days later.

    Other than the drive to Pittsburgh, total time invested in two vehicle purchases was about two hours - no e-mails, faxes, or ego-fulfilling formal letters.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    "Oh, and for what its worth, I am taking the time to send every single salesman who dealt with me an quick email thanking them for their time and letting them know the resolution of my search."

    It's not worth much to the guy who didn't get your business because the dude 3 towns over beat his price by $20 after he worked his manager and the locator for you for half a business day.
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "It's not worth much to the guy who didn't get your business because the dude 3 towns over beat his price by $20 after he worked his manager and the locator for you for half a business day. "

    never asked anyone to work a locator - never got that far......and the way I see it - working with someone and losing the business is part of the job - is close rate really supposed to be 100%? At least I'm letting them know who they lost it to and for how much....and in the end, I spent far less of their time by asking a few questions back and forth via email than had I come into the shop and then not bought....not only that, but they were able to get back to me at THEIR convenience as well. If they had a customer come back in while emails were flying back and forth, they don't have to divide their time.
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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "So without knowing what number we have to hit, since you won't share the figure you got from the guy at that dealership, after you took a couple hours of his time, we can work up a shot in the dark? If that dealer let you go, it's either with a lowball, or a number I won't hit, so what's the point? "

    Right - you don't know what number you have to hit, so give it your best shot - this is why internet shopping works for so many consumers. Alternatively - choose not to do business this way.

    "Other than the drive to Pittsburgh, total time invested in two vehicle purchases was about two hours - no e-mails, faxes, or ego-fulfilling formal letters."

    its not about "self importance" nor "ego fulfilling formal letters"...its about TIME and feeling like I got matched up with a motivated seller. I got OTD prices that swung $27.9-$29.8...almost 7% difference. Had I walked into only one dealership to have that "real buying experience and real delivery" and it was the one that started at $29.8....I could have spent the same 3-4hrs and I doubt I would have gotten down anywhere close to the $27.8 I ended up paying, but hey, I would have had a REAL BUYING EXPERIENCE.

    I think you're the only one here who has the "look at me I'm important" attitude. I'm not important, I'm a consumer with twenty eight thousand dollars to spend.....choose to work with me for a while via email, or don't.

    And if you think someone is rushing around and missing details, maybe you should walk away from it so you don't have to deal with the aftermath.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    "I got OTD prices that swung $27.9-$29.8...almost 7% difference"

    This is why I consider your method a waste of time, and I mean no disrespect, it just is. If you KNOW what you want to pay based on your research, why even take the time to submit for "bids"? As a dealer, I'd much prefer you to say "I'm looking for an XYZ Model SE with x, y and z option groups in grey with a grey interior, and I'm willing to pay $27,200 OTD for it. If that works for you, let me know".

    I can either meet your price or not. Either way, whether I get the deal or not, I'm not wasting time. If I have no idea what to shoot for, I DO consider it a waste of time taking a shot in the dark.

    I was a fleet manager several years back - sealed bids in business are common and you know what you have to do to get a bid. Businesses buying tens and hundreds of vehicles do business like that - I feel it's pretty darned pretentious for consumers to run dealers through the same ringer for ONE vehicle. I choose not to do it, unless I know the parameters.

    To me, I'd rather have salesmen, or the internet guy, talking to real live leads and prospects, or people that we've spent thousands of dollars in advertising to get into the showroom, than take time building and pricing out vehicles for someone who has contacted 25 other dealers and we have no solid numbers or committment from.

    Now, to my other point - 99% of e-mail contacts are from flake buyers. Sifting through all those, hoping yours is a real possibility, then shooting in the dark with parameters...? Not good business at all.
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    Disrespect? That's a 2 way street no? Your reply to me was not exactly sweet like sugar?

    Does your store have an internet dept? If not, you should and it could to some degree automate the situation.

    If not no issues, you have chosen to not play in that enviroment and prefer the old school methods - maybe they work for you, no worries if that is correct.

    I have bought, very successfully 2 hondas and 1 mitsu, using my method as noted, or with slight mods to it - it evolved too.

    I have had great success with it too, saved much time (more than you can imagine), I saved dealers time too, I also made the playing field level and fair - or, as fair as it can be.

    I have also bought 5 (I think) cars the old fashioned way, and there is no way I am going to spend a whole freaking day in a dealers play pen ever again.

    I will make one caveat - if you are not a serious buyer don't waste the time of others.
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    Well, I got out the door prices that flucuated by up to $1200.

    I did go with the low bidder, and they delivered with no issues what so ever.

    I went low bidder as they were the second closest to my home.

    The closest played the BS trade offer card, and we walked.

    Called the other dealer, he increased the trade, and actually beat the other price.

    I had gotten 2 really prices, about 4 more that were about $300 to $400 higher, then 2 more than were stupid - for my area, it was clear that these folks did not play the internet version of this game.

    They were eliminated early, I basically cut it to 2 dealers.

    Tried the first, closest to home, then the second and walked out less than 2 hours later with my Pilot EX.

    And about 1/3 of the time, was spent with the finance guy as he wanted to beat our (in hand) rate. He did, so that was time well spent too.
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    This discussion is for consumers to share their shopping strategies. If someone shares a strategy that you don't like, but it worked for them, TOUGH. This isn't a redux of the Inconsiderate Buyers forum.

    If someone has a question, other members are free to give advice. But we're not going to slam someone's successful shopping strategy. Everyone's different, and what works for one consumer may not work for another. What one dealership prefers, another may hate.

    Further argumentative posts will be deleted without the courtesy of an e-mail.

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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    That is what I was about to say.

    That this is a forum that seems designed to help level the playing field. Not defend a strategy against an opponent.
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    not trying to be argumentive - was actually trying to save folks time and effort by being more specific, rather than shotgunning general information with their methods, but it may not have come across that way.

    Apologies.
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    No harm done. Virtual handshake, and we're all on our way.

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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "This is why I consider your method a waste of time, and I mean no disrespect, it just is. If you KNOW what you want to pay based on your research, why even take the time to submit for "bids"?"

    guess I wasn't clear earlier - my bad....when I started this process, I didn't know what I thought would be a fair price. Emailing for bids was my research - based on that, I determined what I felt to be a fair price, and I got it.
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    exb0exb0 Member Posts: 539
    Who was the dealer that you bought your Pilot from? And, who were the dealers that you cut?

    I also live in the DC area and I am curious which dealers that I should work with and which I should stay away from for my next purchase.

    BTW, it’s ok to give dealer names on this forum, but you are not allowed to give salespeople names.

    Thanks
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    driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    another method, though, with less effort and time, would be to check Edmunds TMV on the exact vehicle you're looking for, or ask the question in "Any questions for a car dealer" or the forum assigned to that particular vehicle.

    It's always better to start the process with the price information in hand first, you'll always have the upper hand if you know what a "good price" for the vehicle is - otherwise, you may be just guessing, which leaves room for monetary error.
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    blh7068blh7068 Member Posts: 375
    earlier this month, It was pretty easy. The only
    things I used the internet for were to research price and search dealer inventory.

    The dealer I bought from had the color I wanted, drove it,(drove a different one about month earlier), had researched price, made an OTD offer, countered once with splitting the difference. I was happy with that. It took about 10-15 minutes to agree on price. It worked out to about $450 over invoice(per edmunds). No games, FI guy was straightforward. He went over all the different warranty packs, which I declined and went with just a straight note. It was a pleasant experience.

    JMO- If a dealer has what you want and you will do business with them, the chances of getting the best deals are higher if you actually go to the dealer as opposed to e-mailing.
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    I am not looking for anything - but I prefer to share sources off line. What was not good to me may be super to you.

    So if you email me, I will tell you everything you want to hear - and not irk others!

    If the dealer gives me free oil change or something - that's cool, but not really the issue.
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Why wouldn't you want to share the dealership name? The vehicle sales business is very competitive, and word-of-mouth can be a dealerships best form of advertising. Most people realize that the definition of a "good deal" is subjective, but a nasty-free shopping experience is valuable.

    By posting the name of the dealership that gave you a reasonable sales experience, you are doing that dealership & others a favor!

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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    No doubt that TMV works for some autos in some areas. But in my experience, it is not accurate.

    Remember, my quotes - and they really were quotes, required very little in the way of serious negotiations - I did say dealer xyz offered this price, and they said ok, here is ours - (that is the very condensed version - it was not that casual - as I was not trying to pressure force the price down).

    Anyway. I try to work from invoice - not always a good place to start - but that is my goal.

    When this was all said and done.

    Invoice was $ $863 over my sales price.
    TMV was $ 2,208 over my sales price.
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    The good was Sheehy Honda.

    I will not mention the bad, but their initials are any dealer under the umbrella of Rosenthal Honda, including Fairfax, Landmark, Rosenthal and I think they own 1 or 2 others.

    If anyone wants the salesman's or the finance guys's name, email me (that is more along the line of what I meant).
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    Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    TMV can't be "inaccurate," per se, because it's derived from actual sales data. It represents an average price paid - since it's based on sales data rec'd from dealerships, you're probably looking at month-old data a lot of times. If you pay TMV, you're about a "C" negotiator. :)

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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,227
    "If you pay TMV, you're about a "C" negotiator"

    But, that is okay, honey.. as long as you did your best... lol

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    richk1richk1 Member Posts: 51
    "I also live in the DC area and I am curious which dealers that I should work with and which I should stay away from for my next purchase. "

    as you can see from my earlier post, my purchase at Herson's went exceptionally well.

    For what its worth - here are the dealers that even via email came through as genuine and very helpful (i.e., taking a few extra seconds to remind me to make sure my apples to apples included things like dest, TTL, doc processing; or double checking with me to see if I was in MD, DC, or VA before they put together an OTD price):

    Jim Coleman Honda (Clarkeville)
    Hendrick Honda
    Landmark Honda
    Sheehy Honda
    Criswell Honda
    Leesburg Honda

    Again, this list is compiled based on email only communications. Good luck!
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    asafonovasafonov Member Posts: 401
    you contribute a lot to these forums (fora?), and I in general enjoy reading your posts. However, I have to disagree with your discounting Internet shopping and emailing RFQs (Requests For Quotes.) My sample size of 2 (different mainstream import brands) is very small, but confirms my belief that dealerships that are easiest and most prompt to respond to emails are also easiest to deal in with person. And not, I am not trying to wring out the last penny, or even the last $200-$300.

    You may be right that 99% of email RFQs overall are flakes - certainly I trust you on your past and current experience. As richk1, I believe, pointed out above, some or most dealerships learn to deal with that profitably somehow, since most have had Internet departments (possibly a single salesperson) for years. After all, I get considerably more spam than legitimate email; this is not reason to not use email at all (a very imperfect analogy.)

    You wrote, As a dealer, I'd much prefer you to say "I'm looking for an XYZ Model SE with x, y and z option groups in grey with a grey interior, and I'm willing to pay $27,200 OTD for it. If that works for you, let me know".

    I understand you are a legal expert now and do not work for/run a dealership, but do you agree that the above scenario is beneficial to the dealer first and foremost? Isn't the party providing the first price point in negotiations in a weaker position? And where, pray, does the buyer come up with this number in the first place? TMV? Often you could do better. Ridiculously low "Priced Paid" threads? I don't remember who had a very reasonable idea that you establish your own TMV precisely by gettings quotes from sellers, whether by email, phone or in person.

    In the end, everyvody should use whatever buying strategy works for him/her, as long as they are considerate, civil, aware of the law of diminishing returns and keep in mind that salespeople are on straight comission...
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    chuminthewaterchuminthewater Member Posts: 91
    That TMV - for my last 2 cars was significantly off.

    I am not trying to argue or suggest that my negotiating skills are better or worse than those of others.

    But consider that many people will have a trade and as we all know the sales price of a new vehicle affects the trade price of the trade, and vice versa.

    Now that said, I also think that depending on the make and model being bought, it appears that most can be had for 'invoice' or less (and I am not yet counting incentives).

    So, while it may well be an indicator of a particular model's popularity and it may also be determined by actual sales, I still think that there are other forces that affect the price which are not included in the TMV.
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