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World's Cleanest Cars

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  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "The only exception is Germany where there is no general speed limit on the highways. "

    The maximum speed limit in Germany on all highways is 100 kmph, except for the Autobahns, unless a lower speed limit is posted. As I recall, the speed limit in town is 60 Kmph, but I never saw a town that didn't actually post their individual speed limit.
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    Thanks for correcting me, stevedebi. I didn't use the word "highway" correctly. I guess I should have used "freeway" (US) or "motorway" (UK)? On the German highways the limit is indeed 100 km/h (some 60 mph). I am not a native speaker and I live in the French speaking part of Switzerland.

    Still the argument doesn't change. The fact that a Prius can only sustain a maximum speed of 100 mph or so is not a problem, even in Europe. Only if you are an "Autobahn" adept AND you choose the right place AND you choose the right time, only then will you find your Prius to be too slow. In all other cases (>99% of the time) the Prius is fast enough.
  • GET SURPRISED GARY! I've had my Prius well over 100MPH but of course that is not sustained for long 'cause I frown on Speed'g tickets. The standard tires on my Prius are not rated for performance hi speeds. I've driven 75-80 for over an hour several times and sustained 46 mpg's on level terrain. You really should try one Gary. They are Inspiring!
    Culliganman(my next set of rubber will definitly be performance rated)
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    Hi railroadjames. I'm surprised to read that the standard tires on your Prius are not rated for performance hi speeds. In Europe your get your Prius on tires that would easily do 140 mph for an infinite amount of time (Michelin Pilot Premacy). What kind of tires do you get in the USA? (Sorry Sylvia, do you allow me to ask this question on the "World's Cleanest Cars" forum, or should I move on? <):-) )
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,895
    Probably better to discuss how the Prius is equipped in the main Prius topic:

    railroadjames, "Toyota Prius 2004+" #4122, 12 Mar 2005 7:16 pm

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  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    OK. Thanks pf_flyer! The question about the forum was a little bit cynical, because Sylvia kicked me out in another thread for not sticking to the topic. Railroadjames, I moved the question to the Prius 2004+ forum. Would you be so kind as to post your answer there?
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 5,895
    It's always a good idea to stay on the right side of things!

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Toyota claims to be building the cleanest diesels in the world for sale in the EU.

    http://www.carpages.co.uk/toyota/toyota-avensis-part-1-02-03-05.asp
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    Hi gagrice. Yep, I believe them. The Dutch highway patrol did an investigation on the negative effects of cars on the environment. The results for gasoline cars:

    http://www.anwb.nl/published/anwbcms/content/binaire-bestanden/pdfs/auto/tests/filename339- - - - - - - - - - - - 54_126571.pdf

    The results for diesel cars:

    http://www.anwb.nl/published/anwbcms/content/binaire-bestanden/pdfs/auto/tests/filename339- - - - - - - - - - - - 48_126581.pdf

    Indeed, Toyota rated very well in these tests.

    All this explains why I'm a little bit of a "crusader" against diesels. The standard diesels are VERY dirty, because of the PM emissions, which are lethal. Still it seems that with filters and other new techniques you could solve the PM problem. It's now up to the customer and the politicians to make sure that, from now on, only near-zero PM diesels are allowed to be sold. This should also apply to lorries, construction equipment, etc. For the moment almost all diesels sold are still dirty.

    The only reserve I make is that I would like to see proof that these new filters will continue to be effective over more than 100,000 miles. Once I have this proof, and all diesels sold are "clean", you won't hear me anymore on "diesel kills".

    By the way: I just heard that for the moment VW will stop selling the Touareg V10 TDI in the USA:

    http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/d/78743

    They are not able to deliver the necessary proof about environment impact to the EPA. Didn't I tell you that, once you aware that "diesel kills", you will news relating to that everywhere? This is what I call good news, because the V10 TDI is the dirtiest car in the world. Things seem to be moving a bit.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "Only if you are an "Autobahn" adept AND you choose the right place AND you choose the right time, only then will you find your Prius to be too slow."

    Unless things have changed since I lived in Germany, there is almost more construction on the autobahns that here is clear unlimited-speed portions. So the Prius would do just fine for many stretches of the autobahn... about 60 km/hr!
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    Europeans keep saying that Diesel is better than Hybrids. 1 fine day, Toyota will bring a Diesel-Electric Hybrid to market at probably 80 MPG and stun everyone.

    In 1990's GM kept saying that Hybrid will cost 10 K more and down came Prius at 23K and took the market by storm.

    Better the Europeans dont repeat the mistake of GM.
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    As far as I understand it, there are two things preventing Toyota from introducing a diesel-electric hybrid. One is the emission problem. The Prius was made to be the cleanest car in the world and a diesel would make it dirty by definition (PM: fine little dust particles coated with toxic substances that kill people).

    But even if the particle problem would be solved with filters, it would still be difficult to use a diesel in a Prius, because it's more difficult to fire it up and shut it down. Furthermore, from what I understand, the Atkinson cycle gasoline engine in the Prius is almost as efficient as a diesel with filters (filters seem to reduce efficiency with 8% or so). So maybe there will never be diesel-electric Prius, but who knows!
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "But even if the particle problem would be solved with filters, it would still be difficult to use a diesel in a Prius, because it's more difficult to fire it up and shut it down. Furthermore, from what I understand, the Atkinson cycle gasoline engine in the Prius is almost as efficient as a diesel with filters (filters seem to reduce efficiency with 8% or so). So maybe there will never be diesel-electric Prius, but who knows!"

    Not to mention the fact that hybrid technology improves low end torque, and diesels excel at low-end torque. So it is less of a match than with the adkinson cycle gas engine, which lack low end torque.

    However, there is already a thread on diesel-electric...
  • Gasoline particles do not compare to diesel particules. Diesels without filters produce more than 1000 times as much fine particles as gasoline cars and they are coated with toxic substances.

    ==================================

    I wonder how many particles are emitted by the tanker trucks refilling your gasoline cars 1.5 times more often? Or refineries processing 1.5 times more oil-to-gasoline?

    There's more to emissions than just the tailpipe. One must consider the whole chain. Converting a Jetta from gasoline to diesel increases +15 MPG, and reduces the amount of tanker trucks/refinery emissions.

    .

    And finally, you keep saying gasoline particulates don't matter, but every week I read a new article about Gasoline Soot being linked to cardiovascular disease (diesel soot stops at the lungs, but gasoline soot's small size can be sucked directly into the blood vessels).

    troy
  • "But even if the particle problem would be solved with filters, it would still be difficult to use a diesel in a Prius, because it's more difficult to fire it up and shut it down."

    .

    Nonsense. The diesel Lupo 80MPG/3L doesn't have any problem shutting off & turning on again.

    Troy
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "Nonsense. The diesel Lupo 80MPG/3L doesn't have any problem shutting off & turning on again. "

    Hmmm, gotta what that "reply" button. I never said the diesel engine would have trouble shutting down and turning on again. I was replying to a different post.
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    *** And finally, you keep saying gasoline particulates don't matter, but every week I read a new article about Gasoline Soot being linked to cardiovascular disease (diesel soot stops at the lungs, but gasoline soot's small size can be sucked directly into the blood vessels). ***

    Hi electrictroy. Can you show me some articles that talk about gasoline soot being sucked into the blood's vessels? I would really like to read about it.

    I agree that gasoline engines also seem to have a PM problem. From what I understand the PM emissions in gas engines are mainly produced during the cold phase and at high loads. Diesel engines are more "regular" at producing small particles.

    From what I understand Prius addresses the problem by "pre-heating" the engine. A thermos-type container stores three liters of coolant at close to boiling temperature for up to three days. When the Power button is pressed, hot coolant is injected into the engine coolant passages, avoiding a cold start. This reduces emissions at startup. Furthermore Prius avoids high loads for the gas engine by using electrical assistance, if necessary.
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    *** Nonsense. The diesel Lupo 80MPG/3L doesn't have any problem shutting off & turning on again. ***

    Well, if the Lupo doesn't have any problem shutting off & turning on again, why is there a button to disable the engine shut off at idle? And why is the Lupo programmed to wait 4 seconds before it will shut off the engine?

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.htm

    There must be reason for this and from what I understand it's because the engine shut off and re-start of the diesel engine can be quite annoying. In the Prius you hardly notice the engine being shut off and re-started.
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    By the way, what a devastating review of the Lupo 80MPG/3L (see my previous post). I didn't expect the Lupo to be that bad.

    -- So the 3L Lupo had no air conditioning, no power steering, no anything. You can add such options, but there'd go your three-liter claim.
    -- The economy-enhancing, easy-rolling tires and lightweight suspension transmitted not just noise but a roar to the passenger compartment on cobblestones, bricks and rough asphalt.
    -- What's hard to overlook is the transmission. It's the key hardware that makes Lupo go so far on so little fuel. But even a fuel-economy zealot would have trouble being charitable. To work its magic, the transmission seeks the highest gear ratio that the engine can handle without stalling, resulting in acceleration so sluggish it almost can't claim to be acceleration at all. It'll cruise 80 miles an hour all day. But ask it to change speeds and oh, woe.
    -- It takes maddening moments before the gearbox is fully engaged and the car will accelerate strongly. You jam the throttle harder. Then the whole shebang hooks up and, screech, the torque-rich diesel engine tries to turn the skinny front tires into smoking shreds of rubber.

    This is not serious! What a difference with a Prius that turns out to be more comfortable and easier to drive than a comparable classic car. The only thing you could say that this is a test of an early model. Does anyone know of a more recent Lupo 3L test? I'm curious to see if VW managed to get it a little bit closer to being a real car.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    What a difference with a Prius that turns out to be more comfortable and easier to drive than a comparable classic car.

    The difference is you can buy two Lupo's in the UK for the price of one Prius. Looks like a stripped Prius is about $34,000 in the UK. Loaded the Prius is $39,000. The Lupo TDI with leather, AC and sunroof is about $22,000. with the $17,000 left over you can buy a stripped Lupo and still have $4000 left over for about 150,000 miles worth of fuel. With the choices in diesel cars in the UK I cannot imagine anyone buying a Prius. Even if you are an anti diesel zealot, most of the car makers have very clean diesel cars in the EU that are far better than the Prius in every respect.
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    Well, go ahead, buy your Lupos and enjoy your bumpy, noisy ride, the "roomy" interior and the screeching gearbox. It's a free country! I'll stick to my Prius.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,035
    Well, go ahead, buy your Lupos and enjoy your bumpy, noisy ride, the "roomy" interior and the screeching gearbox.

    Unfortunetly we don't have the choices you have here in the land of the free. I would probably buy a BMW, VW or MB diesel car and one of the many small diesel PU trucks you have available in the EU. We don't have any PU trucks that are not gas hogs. fortunetly our fuel is not taxed to the horrible levels of the EU either.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Gagrice:

    We don't have any PU trucks that are not gas hogs.

    I beg to differ …

    http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/details.php?cid=380&graph=temp

    Care to find a P/U using either a SI or CI-ICE achieving this kind of average FE in below freezing temps? Here in the states we do.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • "Hi electrictroy. Can you show me some articles that talk about gasoline soot being sucked into the blood's vessels? I would really like to read about it."

    .

    Will you pay the postage to mail my copies of Science News to you? Actually, I think most of the GASOLINE SOOT articles are available online at http://www.sciencenews.org/

    Apparently gasoline particulates are a major problem in India, where all the cars are gasoline, and the sky is filled with floating gasoline soot.

    troy
  • "By the way, what a devastating review of the Lupo 80MPG/3L (see my previous post). I didn't expect the Lupo to be that bad."

    .
    First to answer the question, "Why does Lupo have an override to shut off Idle Stop?" ANSWER: Same reason the Honda Hybrids have one (the econ button)... to satisfy personal driver preference. It has NOTHING to do with how hard the engine is to stop/start.

    Second, for every person who bashes the Lupo (or the Prius or the Civic Hybrid), there's someone else who loves it: http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_319.shtml

    - "Volkswagen used a balancer shaft to qwell vibrations and the result is an extremely smooth engine."

    - "The engine is not only unusually refined, but also has decent thrust.... with 140 Nm available between 1,800 and 2,400 rpm."

    - "we never saw less than 68 miles per gallon (u.s.) during all our around town driving - pretty impressive."

    - "Lupo uses the new direct shift gearbox (DSG) found in the R32, Audi TT 3.2, and New Beetle... seamless in operation and actually becomes easy to get used to since it requires no effort on the part of the driver."

    - "In its interior equipment the Lupo 3L TDI is anything but a frugal economobile: The alloy doors have a sturdy feel, the seats are upholstered in the same material as the most upmarket Lupo version."

    - "People buying this particular Lupo model probably aren't too concerned about high performance driving antics and in that realm the Lupo 3L TDI delivers with tremendous economy, fairly decent road manners, a very livable interior, and the satisfaction of knowing you own THE most economical car money can buy."
  • And finally, if you still insist upon a hybrid, petition to have this one sold. It's a pure EV which can be plugged-in to the grid + a Lupo 80mpg engine for trips >20 miles.

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=813

    Granted, the 2-seat sporty look may not appeal to you, but remember this technology can be applied to ANY body style (like say a Prius). Imagine driving your prius 20 miles in stealth mode + getting 80mpg on those long trips to the beach.

    troy
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    On the Lupo, see me answer to gagrice #54

    On these articles on PM emissions by gas engines. I didn't find any in the link you gave me. Would you be so kind as to give me a link, if you ever come across one? I would be very interested to see what the latest developments are on this issue.
  • "Well, go ahead, buy your Lupos and enjoy your bumpy, noisy ride, the "roomy" interior and the screeching gearbox. It's a free country! I'll stick to my Prius."

    .

    Wrong, wrong, wrong:

    - "Volkswagen used a balancer shaft to qwell vibrations and the result is an extremely smooth engine."

    - "The engine is not only unusually refined, but also has decent thrust.... with 140 Nm available between 1,800 and 2,400 rpm."

    - "we never saw less than 68 miles per gallon (u.s.) during all our around town driving - pretty impressive."

    - "Lupo uses the new direct shift gearbox (DSG) found in the R32, Audi TT 3.2, and New Beetle... seamless in operation and actually becomes easy to get used to since it requires no effort on the part of the driver."

    - "In its interior equipment the Lupo 3L TDI is anything but a frugal economobile: The alloy doors have a sturdy feel, the seats are upholstered in the same material as the most upmarket Lupo version."

    - "People buying this particular Lupo model probably aren't too concerned about high performance driving antics and in that realm the Lupo 3L TDI delivers with tremendous economy, fairly decent road manners, a very livable interior, and the satisfaction of knowing you own THE most economical car money can buy."

    http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/article_319.shtml
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    OK, you win. The Lupo 3L is a GREAT car. Go ahead and buy one. I'll stick to my Prius.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Certain Lupo lovers would probably love to move to "diesel-loving" Europe.......the land where ALL the exhaust smells so yummy and they say the smog is really just fog and all their dust rags turn black after one use.....:) :) :)

    Prius is still in the top three on anyone's World's Cleanest Cars that run at least partial gasoline listing....
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