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World's Cleanest Cars

124

Comments

  • Actually, we'd prefer to see the diesels in America. I like my insight hybrid, but even I admit it's NOT a long-term solution. It's gasoline engine is weak & often feels underpowered (ditto the civic & prius) especially when climbing inclines (think turtle mode). Gasoline hybrids have reached their highest possible efficiency.

    In contrast, diesels are 30% more efficient than gasoline engines, with higher torque, and it only seems logical to choose that higher efficiency. The 80mpg Lupo is only the beginning, with a 120mpg Lupo II in development by volkswagen.

    .

    Ford has already proved they can build a diesel with SULEV rating (same as Prius). So why not let them do it, and sell it to the american masses?

    We gave gasoline engines 35 years to improve from 1970 to 2005 (99.9% cleaner). It only seems fair to give diesel engines the same chance to improve. We've given diesels 10 years so far (since 500ppm diesel arrived)... and they've made dramatic improvements... let's give them a few more years. In this instance, I think the European politicians are smarter. They're open-minded enough to give Diesel a chance to clean-up, and manufacturers like Toyota & Honda are meeting the new Euro4 specs.

    Let's be like Europe, give diesel time to succeed, take advantage of diesel's 30% higher efficiency, and reduce our oil imports.

    Troy

    TRIVIA: For every barrel of oil imported, the yield ratio is TWO gallons of diesel vs. only one gallon of gasoline.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote E-Troy:I think the European politicians are smarter."-end quote

    Well, the reasons diesel is popular in Europe really has nothing to do with "smart or dumb" politicians.

    It has to do with cheaper fuel. That's it. Not because it's more efficient, or cleaner, or that the engines potentially last longer. It's cost per mile, made lower by cheaper diesel fuel.

    I'm all for "clean diesels" in the USA, once the sulfur-free diesel is completely installed in the distribution system and the clean engines get here and five states stop banning diesels.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi ET:

    The Lupo is a very poor seller by comparison to everything else in Europe given the poor reviews. Why wouldn’t a car with an 80 + mpg rating not sell well where fuel costs upwards of $6.00/gallon? Because its drivability is junk in terms of everything else that is available in Europe.

    Lastly, if you thought your 5-speed Insight was a slow automobile (0- 60 in 10.6 seconds and a 113 rev limited top speed), heaven help you in the POS otherwise known as the Lupo 3L.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • Troy: "I think the European politicians are smarter"

    Larsb: "Well, the reasons diesel is popular in Europe really has nothing to do with "smart or dumb" politicians. It has to do with cheaper fuel. That's it."

    ===========================================

    I knew that. The reason I said Euro politicians are "smarter" is because they have not set emissions laws to effectively outlaw diesel cars (as did California politicians). Euro politicians are allowing diesels time to gradually improve, rather than ban them.

    And as for Lupo 80MPG/3L sales, the reason they are "poor" is the same reason EV1 or Prius or Civic Hybrid sales are "poor" - Limited Production.

    The truth is that VW sells every Lupo 80MPG/3L they produce, and they could easily sell more, but are limiting production (same as Toyota/Honda).

    troy
  • "if you thought your 5-speed Insight was a slow automobile, heaven help you in the POS otherwise known as the Lupo 3L."

    .

    I actually said my insight is WEAK, not slow. Weak = barely enough torque to move itself down the road.

    The Lupo 80MPG/3L car generates *more Torque* than the Insight (140Nm vs. 85Nm). That makes the Lupo more driveable. You don't have to shift to 4th gear, just to climb a small hill.

    Or worry about emptying the battery to empty.

    Plus, the Lupo can carry 5 people without making three separate trips (like my insight).

    Troy
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi ET:

    The Lupo has no distinguishing issues for VW to limit sales. It is a POS and that is why it hasn’t taken off even with $6.00 per gallon prices.

    In terms of weak, the Lupo is a what, 14.5 second car to 60 mph? I don’t care if it has 1,000 Ft-Lb’s, if it cannot generate it fast enough, it is a slow POS (and it is) and thus the reason very few buy it in Europe. Read the reviews. The Euro reporters are not lying in the least.

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • If the Lupo (talking ALL models here, not just the 80mpg one).....

    If the Lupo is a "POS" then why does Volkswagen keep selling them? The Lupo style has been around since ~1996... nearly 10 years. Why would VW keep building a car that doesn't sell?

    ANSWER: Because Lupos DO sell. Extremely well.

    troy
  • joebeattjoebeatt Posts: 50
    Taken from the latest environmental report published by VW themselves:

    "Today it is more important than ever to do what we can for the environment – for the sake of our children and our children’s children, who will be here long after we’ve gone. In 1999 my husband and I were among the first to order a Lupo 3L TDI, and we were delighted with it. It consumes very little fuel, it’s exempt from vehicle taxes for five years, it’s nippy and, very importantly, we can feel that we’re doing something for the environment. True, the 3-litre Lupo isn’t exactly cheap, but progress has its price. Some people say it’s too small for four people but it’s the perfect car for around town. We now drive our third 3-litre Lupo although sadly demand for this model seems to be fading. That will change, though, just as soon as the politicians bring taxes closer into line with fuel consumption. And let’s not stop there. How long till we get the 1- or 2-litre car?"

    http://www.volkswagen-environment.de/_download/umweltbericht_2003_2004_english.pdf
  • Taken from the latest environmental report published by VW themselves:

    "Today it is more important than ever to do what we can for the environment – for the sake of our children and our children’s children, who will be here long after we’ve gone. In 1999 my husband and I were among the first to order a Lupo 3L TDI, and we were delighted with it. It consumes very little fuel, it’s exempt from vehicle taxes for five years, it’s nippy and, very importantly, we can feel that we’re doing something for the environment. True, the 3-litre Lupo isn’t exactly cheap, but progress has its price. Some people say it’s too small for four people but it’s the perfect car for around town. We now drive our third 3-litre Lupo although sadly demand for this model seems to be fading. That will change, though, just as soon as the politicians bring taxes closer into line with fuel consumption. And let’s not stop there. How long till we get the 1- or 2-litre car?"


    The 2-litre car (130 mpg highway) is coming in 2006 or 2007.

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote E-Troy:"The 2-litre car (130 mpg highway) is coming in 2006 or 2007."

    Maybe to econobox Europe, not to the USA.
  • Fellas, the MAIN reason why Europe drives Diesel is the econmomy. If you guys were paying 3 times as much for petrol (gas) as you are now, you WOULD drive diesel - FACT... While fuel is so hysterically cheap in the US who cares about MPG so I don't blame you but the US obsession with huge pick ups etc. doesn't help the worlds environment a lot does it....
  • the hybrid cars deserve more support.
    well, all the ecologic cars :) :surprise:
    i think we are in a world who wants ecologic cars more than ever :lemon:
  • karkuskarkus Posts: 11
    "Unfortunately, the disappointing sales figures — only 28,000 units were sold in six years — meant the mileage champ was ultimately dropped from the German carmaker's lineup."
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=116314

    Well, it really doesn't sound like they were production limited after all. In fact, the Lupo 3L sold so poorly they stopped production. It only averaged about 4666 units per year. The Prius has sold more units per MONTH every month for the past two years than the Lupo sold each year. Hmmm.....

    Now WV has the Polo Blue Motion, which "returns a highly impressive 60 mpg on the combined European consumption cycle". Once again, people have touted this as a "Prius beater", when in fact they are trying to compare a subcompact to the midsize Prius. Let's see VW scale that technology up to a Passat or at least a Jetta sized car, and then we'll have a good comparison.

    Still, I applaud VW for making cleaner high MPG diesels which they will hopefully bring to the US in 2008. It's a shame that diesel and hybrid supporters often fight each other, when in fact they are both striving for similar goals. In fact, VW has just announced a hybrid (gasoline) for 2009, and Toyota is working on diesels. Soon we'll have diesel electric cars, which combine the best of both worlds.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Europeans, and for that matter most of the world, measure fuel efficiency in gallons per mile not miles per gallon. Actually its liters per 100 kilometers but the same principal. You might be thinking, what does it matter? It matters a lot with our convuluted CAFE system. Here's an extreme example, take a vehicle that gets 10 mpg and instead rate it at 10 gallons per 100 miles. Now take another vehicle rated at 50 mpg and convert this to 2 miles per 100 gallons. What's the average? (10+2)/2 = 6 gallons per 100 miles or 16.7 mpg. Our system would have averaged the 50 mpg and the 10 mpg, which is (50+10)/2 = 30 mpg. The US system is fundamentally flawed when it comes to determining just how much fuel the average vehicle is using.
  • This post is about the world’s cleanest cars. All electric beat the competition so readily that discussions about hybrids or Diesel's doesn’t make any sense.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "All electric beat the competition so readily that discussions about hybrids or Diesel's doesn’t make any sense."

    Isn't that highly dependent on the source of the electricity?
  • There are a couple of emerging technologies that make Electric cars (EV) more viable. One is the low cost solar panels that make it practical to charge an EV from them. http://www.nanosolar.com/
    Another is the improvement of battery technology and range. AC Propulsion has a link to many presentations that show how EV's could be charged at night an actually relieve some peak utility burden during the day. http://www.acpropulsion.com/resources/reports.htm
    Most reports, (the ones not paid for by Oil companies) show that EV's pollute less than even the best Hybrids because of the more efficient production at the power plant.
    If the eestor can be produced, and that might be a big if then I believe we will see a shift in the way we view transportation. http://money.cnn.com/2006/09/15/technology/disruptors_eestor.biz2/index.htm
    Thanks;

    :)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,459
    i don't see how adding cars to the usage of the power grid will help things overall, unless they can't be charged up during peak hours.
  • They charge up during off peak hours and the power companies buy back power during peak hours. You charge the car at home and drive to work. Plug in at work and sell back power for a higher rate than you paid to charge up. If you drive lest than 40 miles round trip you could sell 100 miles worth of energy. (The new battery technology allows for a range of greater than 150 miles and if the Ultracapacitor works it would be over 200 miles.)
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    i don't see how adding cars to the usage of the power grid will help things overall,

    That all depends on what you mean by "help things". If your goal is to reduce pollution and you get your energy from a dirty coal power plant then there isn't much benefit. If one of your goals is reduce our dependency on foreign oil then there absolutely is a benefit. The US is 100% self sufficient when it comes to generating electricity and we do have the spare capacity to charge a large fleet of EVs. Cleaning up the coal powerplants or transitioning to "greener" sources for our energy is doable and something to work towards but its not a legitimate reason to delay EVs.
This discussion has been closed.