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Karl's Daily Log Book

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Comments

  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Not all sound is created equal. Just being quieter by 'x' number of db doesn't address the quality of the sound.

    Would you feel better if the engine note was described as "quietly thrashy"? :)
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Not all sound is created equal. Just being quieter by 'x' number of db doesn't address the quality of the sound.

    Pre-cisely! The sound of fingernails on a chalkboard might be pretty low level in a given room, but that still doesn't mean I want to hear it.

    Not that I'm claiming the B9's engine sounds like fingernails on a chalkboard...

    This issue has come up before and I keep trying to tell everyone -- dB does not equal refinement (or noise, vibration, and harshness). Sound is only one element, and depending on the type of sound, it can be the least important element.

    The B9's engine makes a raspy sound that permeates the cabin, and compared to a Highlander, X5, XC90, RX 330 or even an Explorer the sound is pretty annoying. AND, it's accompanied by a vibration that makes it feel like the tranny is stuck one gear below where it should be -- but it feels/sounds this way even at 2,000 rpm.

    Of course that's just my opinion...as someone who's driven all of these vehicles -- but purchased none.
  • b9driverb9driver Member Posts: 118
    Would you feel better if the engine note was described as "quietly thrashy"?>>>

    So long as you apply it all boxer engines, which have the same note, go right ahead. You get used an engine tone after a while and then it's just about how loud it is. As others have noted, at 70 MPH there really is virtually zero engine noise, just as in the Lexus 330. Then again, putting the hammer down in the 330 at 65 mph brought a thick groaning from the engine. It sounded very unaggressive compared to the B9, but it was just as quick or quicker.
    Groan or thrash...take your pick!

    Robert B
    NY
  • kurtamaxxguykurtamaxxguy Member Posts: 677
    wrtr general reactions of Hyundai beating Toyota and Honda; Hyundai is really trying to improve while Honda and Toyota (thanks to popularity) have been coasting a bit. Now if Hyundai customer service is superior as well, they have a true winner.

    Mwanwhile Karl am curious what you think of the Malibu Maxx SS comming out shortly? One review site in Canada dismissed it as old school (paraphrased as "low tech engine and trans", frumpy interior, etc). Why the heck didn't Chevy make a slick touring car out of this instead of another tired SSR rehash? - or am I missing something?
  • b9driverb9driver Member Posts: 118
    one gear below where it should be -- but it feels/sounds this way even at 2,000 rpm. >>

    Not one person has noted this problem and I certainly don't have it on my car. Nor has ANY review commented on it. In fact all of the reviews called the noise levels "lexus like." No one mentioned vibration from the engine and no one complained about any sound from the engine, except that it had the typical Boxer sound. Friends at my yacht club own the MDX and Lexus 330, yet they think the B9 is the more refined ride. So does Motor Trend, Car and Driver and others. Here are just a few of the professional excerpts. Sorry, Karl. I think the Jury has voted on this one. If you don't like the tone of an engine, do what my WRX driving buddy did and add an exhaust. Now his WRX sounds like a rally car. I prefer the dead quiet ride of the B9.

    From Autobile Magazine:
    "The Tribeca not only looks different from most mid-size SUVs, but it drives differently, too-which is to say, better."

    From Motor Trend-JULY TEST
    "Subaru gave this crossover a ride grandma won't complain about, but made sure it could hold it's own on canyon roads. The B9 went through the slalom faster than the X5, Murano, Pilot and even the V8 Taureg."

    From Car & Driver:
    Ride motions are securely damped by the Tribeca's strut-front and multilink-rear suspension to the point where you'd describe the ride as firm rather than plush, but it's supple enough to avoid any accusations of harshness. Generous anti-roll-bar diameters on both axles quell any wallowing motions in curves, and the rack-and-pinion steering provides extremely good path control. That's reassuring when you're carving high-speed sweepers in the narrow lanes of Interstate 5 with a big rig on one side and a K-rail on the other."

    More from Motor Trend:
    "A front strut/rear multilink suspension was tuned to closely match the handling dynamics of the BMW, while softening the suspension settings for improved ride quality. Fat 255/55R18 Goodyear Eagles match the size of the X5's sport suspension tires. An hour behind the wheel afforded few twisty sections, but each was threaded with aplomb and minimal body roll. Midcourse steering corrections never were required, but the steering feels a trifle light, and it transmits less road-surface information than a BMW's does. Still, this is an impressively astute road-runner."

    Motorweek-Car of the Month:
    "On everyday roads we found the ride cushier than many competitors, yet control was never an issue, and interior noise levels are low. In corners, the Tribeca proves to be a very capable utility. Suspension is all-independent. The MacPherson struts up front are also adapted from the Legacy/Outback, while the double wishbone coil-spring rear is all new."

    From MSN Auto:
    "On the tight, twisty roads of the Tomales Bay area north of San Francisco, there were definitely times when it would have been more fun behind the wheel of a Subaru WRX STi, but for an SUV the B9 Tribeca held its own. The B9 Tribeca is fun to drive, which doesn't hold true for many other 7-passenger choices in the market—so it might surprise a few people."

    from Motor Trend"
    "If you love driving and have to step up from a sports sedan, the Tribeca is a great way to go."

    From UK Auto:
    The ride is very Lexus like, both in refinement and subdued road and engine noise. Handling is quite close to the X5, though softer overall.

    From Edmunds:
    Near Lexus Luxury: Subaru has shown signs of luxury intent in the 2005 Legacy and Outback models, but really brings the upscale look and comfort home in the B9 Tribeca. Subaru's competent boxer engine and all-wheel-drive system combined with a lengthy list of standard safety equipment and a luxurious, feature-laden interior make this new flagship a vehicle worth considering, even among the top competitors.
  • b9driverb9driver Member Posts: 118
    From Motor Trend:

    "Subaru boxers and Volvo inline-fives tend to be groaners under full throttle, but weren't this time around. It's obvious that sound deadening strategies were used liberally in both the B9 and XC70."

    Okay...I think this goose is cooked. I have a long luxurious ride for tomorrow. Don't listen to me, all the reviewers or even Karl. Go try a B9 out for yourself. You may like it...then again you may not.

    Good luck,

    Robert B
    NY
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Go try a B9 out for yourself. You may like it...then again you may not.

    You'll never see me argue with that advice.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I was right about this - perhaps yours was programmed/customized not to show the audio information, but I reset it to the defaults and indeed you see the volume and the station whether you press the buttons on the steering wheel or the memory pre-set buttons on the dash.

    -juice
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    back in post 940 I wrote this -

    Karl-

    Edmunds now has spy photos of the 06 Civic -

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=106351#5

    Are these really "spy" photos?? Or just images released by Honda? If you look at the pictures of the coupe and sedan they were taken in exactly the same spot - check the background. Now obviously this is possible, but somehow seems a little too coincidental.

    I guess what I am asking is - do manufacturers release "spy" photos in hope of getting some good publicity?

    When the images of the C6 on the car carrier were released the buzz was enormous for Chevrolet - talk about fantastic and free publicity. I think GM released those images - just my opinion.

    You never commented on this - any insight???
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    As for the two pictures having the same background - that is probably because the 'spy' photographer was in the same spot as both cars drove by...

    BUT... I do agree with your premise .... I think automakers sometimes purposely "leak" these shots, or purposely "leak" their test schedule to a spy photographer so he can "accidentally" be in the right place at the right time. Like you said, it's free publicity....
    I don't think it's a coincidence that back when Honda sales were really strong you never saw any spy shots of them, but now that Civic sales are down you get a clear, undisguised shot of the '06 a few months before it comes to market.... that would have never happened 10-15 years ago..... Ok, somewhat in fairness, they are doing much more testing in the USA now, they probably did most in Japan before... but still... I wouldn't doubt that a lot of "spy shots" are inside jobs, setups...
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Well, now Edmunds has a "spy" video of the Civic. How come this was not available the same time the first "spy pics were?

    Honda has now sustained momentum with the new "spy" video ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's possible they had the pics and videos earlier but agreed to release them to the public at a certain time.

    -juice
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    on the GT. My husband and I saw one a few days back and he was salivating. I'm sure you will enjoy it.

    One thing I am curious about in the Sonata vs. Camry vs. Accord test is that even with the Sonata's price, feature, and performance advantage the Accord is still tops in the Personal Rating. Is that a misprint?
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Now that I've started working I've noticed a gap in just about every car review out there. The "driving impressions" portion of edmunds.com reviews would be even more helpful if they had a pain-o-meter discussing how the car did in bad traffic.

    It isn't something you can really try out on a test drive. And if you drive stick, it's darn near impossible to find a friend with the same car, to ask him how it is. My car, for example, has a long clutch pedal travel. And its engagement is vague and very hard to get smoothly. Those two characteristics, combined, make for a tired left leg. Maybe more importantly, first gear is terrible for constant low-speed travel. If you keep it under 15mph, the car jerks a lot even if you're trying to keep constant pressure on the gas pedal. You already talk about the seats in most cars as well as other comforts, so no problem there.
    It would work well with automatics too, imo. Some that I've driven have un-progressive accelerators... you lightly get on the gas and it doesn't move... doesn't move... groans... then-suddenly-a-burst-of-speed! That sucks in traffic too. How hard you have to hold the brake pedal down to remain stationary while in drive is important too.

    You probably drive your test cars home in bad traffic anyway; now just tell us how it is. If you don't, then... start. Make us a little less jealous of your jobs =p. But seriously, I think it would really stand out in a review.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,318
    my focus 2.3/5 speed is really good going slow with light throttle and accellerating from there or vice versa. the clutch travel is a bit long to be really easy in stop and go traffic (maybe it's me).
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Both our 03 Si and our 04 Accord are easy to drive. A test drive should be enough to give you an idea of how easy a manual transmission will be to drive.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Still no response to my "spy photo" conspiracy theory??

    A lot of media attention lately about spy photos.

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0507/25/A01-258139.htm
  • levyroblevyrob Member Posts: 22
    Did Mercedes pick their 3-letter acronym carefully for the CLS 500? The letters CLS almost sound like "Cialis" as they roll off the tongue in regular speech. Didn't someone in their marketing department research this? After all, the Buick LaCrosse is called something else in Canada.....the Allure (you'll have to look it up).

    Granted, driving a CLS will probably improve your chances with the ladies, but that is simply because it is a beautiful car.

    I don't think the Suzuki Grand Viagra will get you anywhere in that regard.
  • kevm14kevm14 Member Posts: 423
    If you don't like the tone of an engine, do what my WRX driving buddy did and add an exhaust. Now his WRX sounds like a rally car. I prefer the dead quiet ride of the B9.

    Repulsive! Everytime I hear a boxer powered car with an aftermarket exhaust, I have to look at see if it's not a 1988 Loyale with a rusted out exhaust. They sound the same to me. Can't quite figure out how someone thinks they sound great. I guess every market has its niche. That would explain Saab enthusiasts, too :P
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I agree.

    Like Bill Murray said in Groundhog Day - "People like blood sausage too, people are morons."
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,318
    did anyone actually see the 'spy photos'? i did. the vehicle looks pretty good, although most agree it looks like a ford suv, not a gm.
    btw, karl gt will look great in blue. that IS ford's color.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Meanwhile Karl am curious what you think of the Malibu Maxx SS comming out shortly? One review site in Canada dismissed it as old school (paraphrased as "low tech engine and trans", frumpy interior, etc). Why the heck didn't Chevy make a slick touring car out of this instead of another tired SSR rehash? - or am I missing something?

    I agree with the Canucks. They've already admitted they are killing that model, and yet they still want to "SS" it?

    I have three words for GM -- Refinement-Refinement-Refinement.

    It's really deeper than that. They need to address build quality and interior quality, etc., but overall vehicle refinement (which all of these elements play a part in) is where they have focus their energy.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    I guess what I am asking is - do manufacturers release "spy" photos in hope of getting some good publicity?

    It's entirely possible, but I can tell you that all the spy photography we get comes from real spy photographers. We know the guys shooting the cars, so unless the OEs are "slipping them photos on the side" we are showing our readers authentic spy photography.

    Remember that often a manufacturer will test multiple versions of a car, or even multiple models, at the same time during the "early testing" when spy photos are shot. For example, if Honda has to run the next Civic and the next Accord through hot weather testing, why would they not run both cars at the same time versus making two separate trips? I think that's how the two different Civic photos happened at the same location.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    One thing I am curious about in the Sonata vs. Camry vs. Accord test is that even with the Sonata's price, feature, and performance advantage the Accord is still tops in the Personal Rating. Is that a misprint?

    No. Very often a car will win a comparison test even when it isn't our favorite car. That's why the winners of our comparison tests often differ from our Most Wanted winners.

    Here's an example:

    If you measure the Acura TL and the BMW 3 Series on hard numbers, the TL wins (more horsepower, lower price, more standard luxury items, etc.). But if you ask our editors which they'd rather own (this is the personal rating in the comparison test score chart) they will likely say "the BMW." Sometimes the car we like the best wins the test, but sometimes it doesn't.

    That's why I have so much faith in our comparsion tests. I've seen too many magazines that, in my opinion, obviously skewed the scoring so a certain car would "win." We don't do that. Our personal and recommended choices make up 20 percent of the final score for each model in a comparison test, but the other 80 percent are things we really can't control (performance testing, value equation, feature content, etc.).

    If you want to know the cars we like the best, check our Most Wanted. If you want to know the cars that represent the best overall product in a given category (including both our emotional feelings about them and quantifiable facts and figures) check our comparison test winners.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    You probably drive your test cars home in bad traffic anyway; now just tell us how it is.

    Great feedback. As someone who officially will picks an automatic over a manual to drive home based solely on my time of departure and day of the week (going up PCH on Friday afternoons with a manual abosutely sucks), I can relate to your issue.

    The truth is that most cars are pretty good in stop-and-go traffic, so we don't usually mention that specific driving condition because most cars are fine in that regard. Obviously manual shift cars open up the potential for more problems, especially if the clutch/shifter has any issues.

    But you can sort of extrapolate how a car would be in traffic based on what we say about them in the road test. For instance, if the brakes are a bit grabby and difficult to modulate (new IS 350), then they will be all those things every time you have to stop in stop-and-go traffic. If the clutch on a given exotic is as easy to drive as a Ford Mustang (like, oh, I don't know...the Ford GT's :P ), then you know that, as exotics go at least, the car isn't too painful in stop-and-go traffic.

    It's hard to focus on different driving conditions because there are so many. Lot's of people would like to know how a car accelerates up a steep mountain pass (everyone who lives in Colorado) and others want to know how it handles icy conditions (Minnesotans). Instead of discussing every type of driving condition, we discuss the vehicle's basic characteristics and hope readers will apply them to their specific situations.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Did Mercedes pick their 3-letter acronym carefully for the CLS 500? The letters CLS almost sound like "Cialis" as they roll off the tongue in regular speech. Didn't someone in their marketing department research this?

    I think this happens all the time. In my opinion every time the letters "SX" appear next to each other in any car's name it's because of the underlying sound/association they make.

    Just try saying "NSX" over and over without it having a certain connotation...
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Hey Gang,
    I instrument tested eight cars on Friday, seven of which were economy sedans. Here's my reaction (from simply flooring, braking and tossing them around on a closed course...no actual normal driving at all...)

    Chevy Cobalt -- Liked this one better then I imagined. First, it was faster then every other car in the test by over one second in 0-60 and 1/4-mile acceleration. It was also pretty comfortable and the steering was OK (not as good as Mazda3, Focus or Civic, but still above the class average). Wish it had better interior materials...
    Honda Civic -- The segment stalwart is still a hell of a car. Typical Honda -- not really the best any any one way, but very strong in everything...which I guess makes it the best at being a balanced car. Like the engine refinement, the steering feel and the overall tossability in slalom. Also good interior materials and comfortable seat.
    Mazda 3 -- I think this is still my favorite car in the segment. It has the best steering, the best exterior styling, the best interior (both in comfort, design and material quality -- though the Honda is right there), and the best overall handling. If this thing made another 30 horsepower it would absolutely obliterate the competition. As it, it merely destroys them.
    Kia Sportage -- Get ready...I like this car. Good steering, comfortable seats, fully acceptable interior quality. It needs more power and less body roll, but for this class you can't really fault a car for not being fast or a super handler. And for the price, excellent value.
    Hyundai Elantra -- It's bizarre, but I didn't really like this one. I know Hyundai is the "premium" brand between Kia and Hyundai (if that's possible...), but this car was worse than the Kia in several ways. The steering feel, the suspension tuning (even more body roll), the engine note (very whiny) and even the interior design wasn't as good as its Korean cousin. Weird...but true.
    Ford Focus -- As with the Mazda 3, this one looks good, handles good, has a nice interior...and needs more power. But the Mazda is better in each of those ways. I wish Ford would bring the current Focus platform (the one on sale in Europe already) over here. Wait, I guess they have...it's called a Mazda 3.
    Suzuki Forenza -- So, did I mention how much I like the Mazda 3...

    Look for the full comparison test to go live in a few weeks, and remember, my feelings above do not, necessarily, indicate finishing order. They are only based on performance testing. There's still value equation, feature content and personal/recommended ratings to take into account.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Excellent xnalysis of different cars, I have a new respect for Edmunds. :)
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I mean analysis of course. :P
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Did you mean Kia Spectra rather than Sportage?
  • kurtamaxxguykurtamaxxguy Member Posts: 677
    ..about the Pontiac Solstice, claiming GM's product development is back on track and everything from the General from now on will - to paraphrase - be amazing and wonderful.

    Karl, what is your take on this vehicle? It sounds like a truly nice Roadster, though some of the claims like "neutral handling at outrageous cornering speeds" make my eyebrows rise a bit.

    For sure, it's offering Pontiac dealers the greatest markup windfall they have ever had dropped in their laps !!

    As for the Maxx SS, could have been great if the engineers, not marketeers, had refined it to Mazda or (gasp) Audi levels. What it_ is_ makes little sense.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Everything from the General from now on will - to paraphrase - be amazing and wonderful.

    How many times have we heard that sad old song?
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    "It's hard to focus on different driving conditions because there are so many. Lot's of people would like to know how a car accelerates up a steep mountain pass (everyone who lives in Colorado) and others want to know how it handles icy conditions (Minnesotans)."

    Good point.

    I'll keep a closer eye out for those brief but useful sentences about characteristics of a car. I guess I sometimes miss the shorter sentences, as if I expected serious annoyances to come in longer phrases. But speaking of brakes, why do so many companies make grabby ones? The Acura TL I drove during GM's Autoshow in motion had really grabby brakes. So does my friend's BMW 328i. Are they supposed to be sportier or something?
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    Wouldn't it have made more sense to wait for the 2006 Honda Civic to hit the lots before doing a comparison test? It has been one of the leaders in this segment for quite some time. I would question the logic in testing a 5 year old design against fairly recently redesigned competitors when the replacement is a few months down the road.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    Were the economy sedans manuals or auto?

    So, what was the 8th car?

    Apparently there was a recent media drive for the Solstice - when can we expect an article? Did you go?
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Did you mean Kia Spectra rather than Sportage?

    YES!

    Sorry. These companies like to put together common sounds for their models (Ford is the "best/worst" with their whole "Ex-" thing on SUVs), but for me they often just lead to confusion.

    Anyways, it was the Spectra in the test.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    As noted, if GM spent half the energy in actually improving their vehicles that they constantly spend telling us how much their vehicles are about to improve, they could probably maintain market share without offering employee pricing.

    I will tell you this -- I have officially decided that the Solstice is my personal "last chance" for GM. The car was brought in as a direct Lutz idea. He has been able to watch over it every step of the way. And it's been in the works for, what, four years? Certainly long enough for GM to see their rapidly shrinking market share and know they must get serious to address it.

    No excuses this time! If it doesn't wow me, I will have little hope left for the world's (currently...) largest automaker.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    But speaking of brakes, why do so many companies make grabby ones?

    I think part of it is simply the ever increasing ability of brake systems. I'm sure if you graphed the muscle necessary to slow the average car down over the last 30 years the amount would be consistently dropping. Now you have brake systems that are so capable of slowing a car down that the big challenge for automakers is figuring out how to make it easy to modulate all that braking power.

    I eventually got used to the IS 350's brakes, but it took awhile. The upside? The car stops very quickly and confidently.
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Wouldn't it have made more sense to wait for the 2006 Honda Civic to hit the lots before doing a comparison test?

    Yes...but if we did that then people would be saying, "Why didn't you wait for the Dodge Caliber?" and if we waited for that they'd be saying "Why didn't you wait for the next Sentra?" and if we waited...

    You see where I'm going. The Civic is coming relatively shortly, but then we have to:
    A. Get possession of one for long enough to run a comparison test (at least 12 days), which is always tough when a "hot new car" enters the press fleets
    B. Get one that is hopefully not have a pre-production model, which will also be tough to get in the press fleet for several months. If we use a pre-production model then the readers often yell, "You guys put a pre-production version up against all those full production competitors, that wasn't fair!"
    C. Schedule all of the other economy sedans (6), which is tough no matter when you run a test.

    Bottom line, we would have had to hold off on the test for at least another six months, during which time people would have continued to ask "When are you guys going to test economy sedan?" (people have already been asking that in this discussion). So am I suggesting their is no perfect time to run a comparison test? Um...YES, exactly.

    However, don't forget that we can always take the winner of this comparison test and have a two-way shootout as soon as we get a new Civic...unless the old Civic wins the current test. It'd be kind of weird to have a two-way shootout dubbed:

    2005 Civic versus 2006 Civic! Which is Better?!!

    I certainly know Honda wouldn't be happy if the 2005 won...
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    I am guessing you have not yet driven the Solstice?
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    Were the economy sedans manuals or auto?

    Autos (just like 92 percent of the ones sold in this country)

    So, what was the 8th car?

    A Mercedes-Benz R-Class. Nice car. It's drives smaller than it is...but it's huge so it still drives "pretty big." And those rear doors? Hope you have a wide garage.

    Apparently there was a recent media drive for the Solstice - when can we expect an article? Did you go?

    We did not. We're supposedly going to the short lead.

    We'll see.
  • kurtamaxxguykurtamaxxguy Member Posts: 677
    Thanks for insight, Karl. I'll be very interested to see how the Solstice fares in your and other Edmunds' drivers' hands.

    Car and Driver tested a preproduction Malibu Maxx (Chevy's manager of communications told me so last year). They complained about rattles and other stuff going on with the car (the overly light steering), all of which was more or less addressed in the production versions.

    Hopefully you folks don't have to test too many pre-production cars for your reviews!
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    so ..... which car won?
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    No winner yet. We still have to go through the on-road driving loops (doing that yesterday and today), plus feature content check, 22-point editor evaluation and pricing/value equation.

    The test should go live in about three weeks.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    What an incredibly biased post. It's amazing that auto writers will claim that they have no personal vendettas against GM and they are just making reviews based on the facts when that is clearly not the case. Your unfiltered comments on this forum prove that you dont really give any GM vehicle a fair chance from the get go. You have such a low opinion of them (and it seems personal) that you write off anything they produce before even driving it. You have trashed the HHR and the Malibu SS before even driving them. I also question whether or not you know much about the automotove industry at all. Not that having such knowledge is critical in this field, but it would be helpful. You reference GM's "rapidly" decreasing market share but that doesnt reflect reality. GM had 50% share maybe 30 years ago. Back then there was no Hyundai, Kia, Mistu and the other import companies barely had a foothold in this market. This isn't to say GM didnt make some bad cars, but to talk about their market share without acknowledging their increased competition is stupid. Every import that came into this market came in offering something competitive to get established and they fought hard, especially in terms of value, to steal customers from the Big 3. To suggest that GM should have a simiar market share in 2005 as they had in 1975 is to suggest that 90% of the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Hyundais, etc. would never leave dealer's lots. With all the hundred of new models in existance today there is no way GM could ever maintain more than 27%-30% share. As Lutz pointed out, no one has a dominant share in Europe and no one ever will. He pointed out te VW once had GM type dominance in the German market but now they are down to 20% in spite of the fact that the press loves their vehicles. You don't hear to many journalists analyzing VWs fall from grace though, especially not here on Edmunds where German cars are considered flawless.

    Your statements about the Solstice being the last hope are also questionable. First of all you haven't even driven the car and yet you are ready to dismiss it as more talk without substance to back it up. How could you have an opinion without driving the car? Secondly, you (and many other "experts") are jumping on Lutz's case saying he has had more than enough time. Arent you the sam guy who gushed over GM;s future products a few months ago? Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a car from scratch? Cars like the Lacrosse, STS and G6 were under development when he got there and it would have been stupid and costly to cancel those designs and start over. If it takes about 3-4 years to develop a new model than the first Lutz models should appear this year. Yoou are also suggesting that GM has nothing to offer besides the Solstice and therefore the companies future rides on this vehicle. The CTS-V, Vette, Equinox, Cobalt SS, GTO, G6 GTP, etc. don't count for anything? Not to mention the Z06, STS-V and XLR-V which have already been announced for production. What excuses has GM made for any of these vehicles?

    I would love for you to explain to me why you have such a beef with GM but little to say about Chrysler and Ford. Chrysler has three hot products as far as I can see, but they also have SUVs that have been less than popular, they arent a factor in the small car market and the most pathetic midsize sedans on the market. Any comment? What is Chrysler's gameplan beyong the 300/Charger?

    Ford has two desirable cars, one of which is unaffordable Lincoln is a joke right now and Ford isnt investing anything into the brand. The Fusion looks good though. Ford's crossover is a flop and will be cancelled. Ford's SUvs are doing even worse than GMs and Ford's product future is based on Mazda and Volvo platforms.

    You honestly think the Civic and Focus have a better interior than the Cobalt? Were you in a preproduction model or something? In my opinion the cobalt has one of the better interiors in the segment, in terms of appearance and materials. My brother has a Mazda 3 and I have spent much time in that car so I can say with assurance the materials in that car aren't class leading. He would agree and he bought the car.

    You also make reference to GM being the top automaker for now, that may be true but Toyota will never be bigger than GM in this country. One of the main reasons Toyota can be #1 is that the Big 3 have ZERO sales in Japan and that is one of the largest markets in the world. It's great for Toyota and the press that Toyota will be number one in global sales, but GM only has about 15% of the global market which really isnt that much at all. It's going to be a lot more difficult for Toyota (13%) to catch up to GM(27%) in the US, especially with Hyundai and Nissan doing so well.
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    ouch!
  • editor_karleditor_karl Member Posts: 418
    You have trashed the HHR and the Malibu SS before even driving them.
    I've driven the HHR. It's too slow, the interior material is sub par and the philosophy behind it is five years out-of-date (a retro compact SUV -- how did they think up that???). The Malibu SS? I've only commented on the MalibuMaxx SS, and my comment was that the this model has already done poorly in the market, so I don't see how adding a niche, "SS" version is supposed to save it.

    To suggest that GM should have a similar market share in 2005 as they had in 1975 is to suggest that 90% of the Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Hyundais, etc. would never leave dealer's lots.
    Please point out exactly where I suggested that GM should have the same market share that they had in 1975. Of course, you can't, because I never did. But their market share is dropping, and it's not just that the share is dropping, but the rate at which their share is dropping is increasing. If it wasn't for their financing arm they'd be in serious trouble, because that's where the company's profit is coming from. Please explain why I shouldn't point out these facts, especially when I feel their weak product offering is the reason?

    With all the hundred of new models in existence today there is no way GM could ever maintain more than 27%-30% share.
    OK, so does that mean when they hit 26% I can call it out as a problem? How about 25% or 24%? Are you suggesting that they will hold their share position at "27%-30%"? We'll see...

    You don't hear to many journalists analyzing VWs fall from grace though, especially not here on Edmunds where German cars are considered flawless.
    Yeah...that's why the 5 Series just finished fourth out of fifth in our latest comparison test, behind an Acura and Infiniti.

    First of all you haven't even driven the car and yet you are ready to dismiss it as more talk without substance to back it up.
    Once again, please show me exactly where I dismissed it "as more talk without substance." I'm saying that it sure as hell better be good, both because it's Lutz' baby and because GM really needs a good product right now, but I haven't already dismissed it as "not good" (though the curb weight does worry me).

    Secondly, you (and many other "experts") are jumping on Lutz's case saying he has had more than enough time. Aren't you the same guy who gushed over GM;s future products a few months ago? Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a car from scratch?
    How long did it take Ghosn to fix Nissan? Most people (myself included) were ready to write-off Nissan in 1999. Now everyone (myself included) is ready to crown Ghosn king while putting a deposit down on a number of Nissan products. The company was basically considered "turned around" by the time the 350Z hit in 2003, meaning in four years the company went from zero to hero. BTW, I gushed over the potential of their new products based on pictures that I saw. I didn't wrap my wedding ring on dash to see if it goes "click-click-click." I didn't turn the steering wheel to see if it provided subtle, intuitive feedback or overboosted deadness. So I have no idea how good they really will be, at least not yet.

    And just to be absolutely clear, I am officially out of patience with the whole "It takes awhile to turn the Titanic around" excuse for GM. In my opinion, someone yelled "Iceberg ahead!!" back in 1973, when there were gas lines and the average American car weighed 4,500 pounds, had a 400 cubic inch engine and made 120 horsepower while getting 11 mpg. By now the "Titanic" should have spun around, lost 40 percent of its weight and started towing water skiers behind its powerful hybrid drivetrain that gets 100 mpg and costs $18,000 (for the entire "ship") to produce.

    I would love for you to explain to me why you have such a beef with GM but little to say about Chrysler and Ford. Chrysler has three hot products as far as I can see, but they also have SUVs that have been less than popular, they aren't a factor in the small car market and the most pathetic midsize sedans on the market. Any comment? What is Chrysler's game plan beyond the 300/Charger?
    Chrysler is profitable year-to-date, and their market share has actually increased. Bash them all you want if you think they are relying too much on a few models for this turnaround, but I tell you this much -- GM would LOVE to have a "Chrysler 300" vehicle in their line-up. Beyond the 300/Charger they have the Caliber, a new Stratus/Sebring and a slew of new Jeeps. And, of course, anything they put the Hemi into seems to sell well.

    Ford has two desirable cars, one of which is unaffordable Lincoln is a joke right now and Ford isnt investing anything into the brand. The Fusion looks good though. Ford's crossover is a flop and will be cancelled. Ford's SUvs are doing even worse than GMs and Ford's product future is based on Mazda and Volvo platforms.
    Ford is still relying too much on the truck market for profit, which hurts them when gas approaches $3 a gallon. But the Fusion looks good (literally and figuratively). Who cares where the platforms come from? If they work, they work. Once again, GM would love to have world-class platforms like the Mazda6 and Mazda3 for their domestic nameplates, even if they came from Saab or Suzuki. You want to make fun of Lincoln being dead and the Freestyle being cancelled, yet GM is making Saab WRXs and Trailblazers? Whatever.

    You honestly think the Civic and Focus have a better interior than the Cobalt? Were you in a preproduction model or something? In my opinion the cobalt has one of the better interiors in the segment, in terms of appearance and materials. My brother has a Mazda 3 and I have spent much time in that car so I can say with assurance the materials in that car aren't class leading. He would agree and he bought the car.
    Yes, I honestly do. We had a production Cobalt in our comparison, and we just bought a Cobalt for our long-term test. The Mazda3 simply blows it away in every measurement except straightline acceleration. So does the Civic (the current one) -- plain and simple.

    You also make reference to GM being the top automaker for now, that may be true but Toyota will never be bigger than GM in this country. One of the main reasons Toyota can be #1 is that the Big 3 have ZERO sales in Japan and that is one of the largest markets in the world. It's great for Toyota and the press that Toyota will be number one in global sales, but GM only has about 15% of the global market which really isnt that much at all. It's going to be a lot more difficult for Toyota (13%) to catch up to GM(27%) in the US, especially with Hyundai and Nissan doing so well.
    It sounds like you don't want "the press" to call out Toyota's success (or GM's failures). Do you also want us to tell people to buy GM cars regardless of their quality?
  • bigdaddycoatsbigdaddycoats Member Posts: 1,058
    "Yes, I honestly do. We had a production Cobalt in our comparison, and we just bought a Cobalt for our long-term test. The Mazda3 simply blows it away in every measurement except straightline acceleration. So does the Civic (the current one) -- plain and simple"

    Blows it away in every measurement? I think that is a little strong.

    I will agree that the Mazda3 is all around a better package, but the Cobalt is close, not blown away. Just my opinion.

    So what model Cobalt was in the comparison test? I drove an 06 SS Cobalt a few days ago and liked it a lot better than the LS model I drove before. I would say the SS is more comparable with the Mazda3 line. I still give the interior nod to the Mazda3.

    Have you driven a Mazda5 yet? I had a brief drive this evening - very cool concept. It will be interesting to see how us Americans take to this vehicle. If I was in the market for a family vehicle, this would definately be in the running.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Very amusing post, but little of it is backed by any fact. You claim GM's share is decreasing at an increasing rate as time goes on. I don't know where you got that from but I doubt you can back that up. I guess I will play your game and pick apart quotes. Again, I'm not here to start arguments or prove I know more than you, but I would like you, or any other "expert" to at least acknowledge that you guys are biased against GM. Being prejudiced is human nature even if most people dont want ot admit it. The problem with you and other people of your age is that you cant separate the past (GM's "glory" days) from today's products. People like you love to talk about how far GM has fallen from glory but you dont mention that GM never made great cars back in the day. They had share because the competition was sparse and hp was all that mattered. It's really that simple, by today's standards their designs were lame and their quality was shoddy. IF GM built cars like they did back then they would have 15% share.

    "I've driven the HHR. It's too slow, the interior material is sub par and the philosophy behind it is five years out-of-date (a retro compact SUV -- how did they think up that???). The Malibu SS? I've only commented on the MalibuMaxx SS, and my comment was that the this model has already done poorly in the market, so I don't see how adding a niche, "SS" version is supposed to save it. "

    So you are saying that once a car company comes out with a successful product, others should steer clear of that market because it's saturated. Funny, that's the same thing Lutz was saying about trying to duplicate the 300C and yet most journalists insist that GM needs to get a retro RWD sedan to the market to copy the success of the 300. BTW, MT tested the HHR vs the PT and they prefered the HHR and I can say that the inside of the HHR looks far more upscale than the PT so I'm not sure what you're comparing it to when you call it subpar, especially when it only costs $16K. I haven't sat in the HHR yet so I cant vouch for the interior but considering what I've seen in the photos and what I've seen of GM's new products like the Impala, Cobalt, Equinox and Lacrosse I seriously doubt you are being fair. As far as I'm concerned that last GM products to come out with half [non-permissible content removed] interiors were the '03 CTS and '04 Grand Prix. Everything since then has been at least competitive, if not ground breaking. The HHR is just a retro version of the Element (which I'm sure you love) and the Scion box truck (which I'm sure you love) and I dont see why you dont get that. Toyota and Honda dont do retro because they have to automotive heritage to trade on so they jump from one lame styling theme to another. The point of the HHR is to compete in the low end cross over segment with the PT and Element, it just so happens that it's styled like a old Chevy truck and it's obvious that the PT was its inspiration. As a fan of Toyota and Honda I find it funny that you jump on GM for copying an idea when that is what they have been doing for years. You also claim it's slow (compared to what?), have you seen the 0-60 times on an Element lately? I didnt think so. BTW, how many years late will Toyota be when the come out with a real full size pickup in late 2006?

    "OK, so does that mean when they hit 26% I can call it out as a problem? How about 25% or 24%? Are you suggesting that they will hold their share position at "27%-30%"? We'll see..."

    You (and your peers) keep harping on this market share issue, but no one has established what market share the leading car company is supposed to have in the US. Toyota has been selling great products in the US for 35-40 years and they have gotten to only 13% market share. the rest of the Japanese cant even get up that level. For the foreseeable future GM will probaly have about double Toyota's market share in spite of the fact the media has praise almost every Toyota product to hit the market in the last decade and derided 90% of GM's models. If we can all agree that Toyota makes the best vehicles should we all assume that they will eventually have 40-50% market share in the US? No one would be stupid enough to say that and that proves that no matter how great the product, no car company is ever going to have more than 30% share in this country due to the intensity of the market and the increasing number of entries. You can complain when GM hits 25% or 24% or whatever, but it's still not going to change the fact that GM if it had been perfect for the last 30 years would probably only have another 3 or 4 points of share. If GM ends up with share in the low 20s and makes high quality, good looking cars I would be happy with that. I don't see people abandoning Toyotas/Hondas anytime soon so GM should be happy with a profitable 23 or 24% and great cars. In case you missed this news flash, Ford and Chrysler have lost tons of share as well.

    "Yes, I honestly do. We had a production Cobalt in our comparison, and we just bought a Cobalt for our long-term test. The Mazda3 simply blows it away in every measurement except straightline acceleration. So does the Civic (the current one) -- plain and simple. "

    Karl, you can't be serious. The current civic lacks features, power and style. Plain and simple. It has one of the cheapest lookng, plainest interiors in the segment. This is not to say the build quality isnt good but there is no way I can believe that the 5 year old civic has a more upscale interior than the cobalt. I have been in both cars and there is nothing high class about the civic as far as I can tell.

    "Chrysler is profitable year-to-date, and their market share has actually increased. Bash them all you want if you think they are relying too much on a few models for this turnaround, but I tell you this much -- GM would LOVE to have a "Chrysler 300" vehicle in their line-up. Beyond the 300/Charger they have the Caliber, a new Stratus/Sebring and a slew of new Jeeps. And, of course, anything they put the Hemi into seems to sell well."

    You are talking about products that arent even out yet. I can't believe you are a Chrysler defender when they are just as guilty as GM when it comes to having poor quality (in the past) and failing to make a competitive midsize sedan. First of all, Chrysler market share is up slightly (for the record, GM's is probably up for the year after the employee sale) and it has been established that Toyota will pass them soon, if they havent already. In spite of how great you seem to believe the unseen Stratus/Sebring will be the fact is right now Chrysler doesn't build a competitive midsize sedan and neither does Ford, although that will soon change. The chances of a buyer cross shopping a Camry/Accord with a Chrysler midsize sedan are slim to none and that isnt debatable. Chrysler is getting out of the small car market just after GM launched a strong entry to re-establish itself as a player. The Neon is a failure and that's why they
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    are giving up on that market. The 300 is a success and no doubt GM (and Ford) wish they had a 300. The fact of the matter is anyone in this market would like to have a product that generated the buzz of the 300 but only Chrysler has that vehicle. When the 300 launched many in the press were skeptical because it was RWD, the interior wasn't great and it got pricey with options. Now that the car is a success, everyone is saying "Why can't GM build a great $35K RWD car?". Spare me the Monday morning quarterbacking. BTW, why is it only GM needs to work on a 300 competitor? I never hear anyone saying Ford, Toyota or Honda should work on a 300-type sedan. Honda has more or less sworn off any RWD sedans and yet no one insists Honda is in trouble unless they develop a credible LX platfrom competitor. As for the HEMI, it does have a high take rate but it's done little to keep the high rebates off the Grand Cherokee or Durango as neither vehicle has been a great success.. Just because Chrysler makes a OHV V8 everyone gets all hot and bothered but a few years ago GM was the laughing stock of the auto world for continuing to make OHV engines. I have no problem with the 300, but one hot product (whose recent monthly sales have been slightly higher than the lacrosse) does not make Chrysler a better company overall. You have to be a competitor in the low end and midsize markets to build volume and they get an F on both counts. For all the Malibu's faults, at least it's in spitting distance of Accord and Camry. Chrysler doesnt even have a credible vehicle to compare to the class leaders.

    "Once again, GM would love to have world-class platforms like the Mazda6 and Mazda3 for their domestic nameplates, even if they came from Saab or Suzuki. You want to make fun of Lincoln being dead and the Freestyle being cancelled, yet GM is making Saab WRXs and Trailblazers?"

    Karl, you're killing me here. GM has a world class midsize platform called Epsilon that is surely competitive with the Mazda 6 platform. You are making little sense to me. Surely you have driven the Saab 9-3 which is based on this platform and has been widely acclaimed as a great handling FWD car. The Malibu may be a little softly sprung, but I've seen little criticism of it's structure. In fact, most reviews have said the car's platform deserved a sporty suspension, steering and wheel/tire package that allowed the car to reach it's potential. I think the Malibu SS and G6 GTP will do just that and the upcoming Aura with 250hp and 6 speed auto looks to be a winner. The delta platform that the Cobalt is based on is only about three years old and I'm pretty sure the Ion Redline and Cobalt SS SC count as world class small cars. As you know this platform is also used on the acclaimed Opel Astra in Europe. ON top of that the Cobalt SS with 170hp is coming out as we speak and it should prove to be a competitor to the 3, unlike the base sedan which is tuned for comfort. Just because you don't like GM cars doesn't mean they dont have any competitive platforms. Again, there is a difference between facts and opinions. Also, I am not making fun of Lincoln but the facts speak for themselves. Lincoln and Cadillac aren't even mentioned in the same breath anymore. The press talks about Pontiac and Buick being killed because they are starved for product and losing their way and I say WHAT ABOUT LINCOLN? What Ford is (or isnt doing) with Lincoln is a disgrace and that alone means Ford can't ever look their nose down at GM regardless of how many Mustangs they sell. Selling Mustangs is not enough to save a company the size of Ford. They need performance cars and competitive luxury cars and they need them now. I'm not sure what your point is about the Trailblazer but last time I checked it hasnt been cancelled like the Freestyle. Also, there is nothing wrong with Ford using Mazda/Volvo platforms but it's sad that Ford has to let it's subsidiaries take the lead on vehicle development.

    "Do you also want us to tell people to buy GM cars regardless of their quality?"

    Of course not, but what do you mean by quality? Everyone has acknowledged GM's quality is up, their fit/finish is up and their interior designs are getting better every day. When you look at the interior of the cobalt vs Cavalier or 2006 Impala vs 2005 impala there is no comparison, they seem like they were designed by different companies. If GM's reliability is better than everyone short of Honda and Toyota and their build quality is right up there with the best, what are you basing your statement on? The fact that you personally believe any GM metal is undesirable (including the vette coupe) doesnt mean that it's fair to dismiss their vehicles in reviews. For example, I can't stand Toyota but I would NEVER tell people not to buy one because they are good cars if you want basic reliable transportation. You said you wont tolerate any more excuses from GM and I say you shouldn't make excuses to dimiss their products. Back in the day people trashed GM vehicles for reliability, but now that's not an issue. The focus then went to fit/finish and noise levels but not that's not an issue. Now the issue is supposedly interior design and "refinement" but as far as I can tell that is being addressed with the models coming out over the last two years or so and the buzz on the new SUVs is that their interiors are of VW quality. Of course we cant verify that because journalist havent had a chance to tap their rings on the dash yet. Even C&D, notorious for hating on GM products, praised the cobalt for interior refinement and attention to detail. When C&D brings themselves to praising a GM product I have tendency to believe GM did a good job. But to no surprise you don't agree and find that the cobalt cant hold a candle to a dated civic.

    One more note, to compare GM to Nissan is silly. Nissan had financial problems but few people thought they were on the brink of collapse. Even when Nissan had those problems their products werent really called into question. Some of them may have been out of date, but Nissan's image and portfolio weren't in the toilet. They launched new products and spiced up their dull styling to turn the company around and it worked. Much of their success came from competiting in segments they hadnt competed in before, the Titan and Murano come to mind. GM competes in every segment except hybrid and ulta luxury so there is little chance for them to turn around as easily as Nissan. On top of that GM is saddled with image problems, design process problems and labor/healthcare issues that Nissan couldn't even imagine. I would love to see Ghosn turn GM around in 4 years. Give me a break. I'm not saying Lutz will turn GM around, but I can say that it is undeniable that GM is producing far better products than they did a few years back.
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