Karl's Daily Log Book

jchan2

How do you feel about the 2004 Infiniti I35? I bought one a few weeks ago and it seems fine- I still don't understand why it didn't sell well. I drove the Lexus ES330 also and felt like the I35 was a better car- slightly sportier, roomier and cheaper.

badtoy

Actually, BMW has been a luxury brand for over 30 years...Volvo has not (and still isn't, in my book -- "near" luxury, yes -- "luxury," no).

In fact, BMW started its upscale climb with the introduction of the Bavaria in the early 70s. It was intended to be a very reasonably priced upscale sedan with BMW handling attributes, but dealer markups quickly sent it beyond the reach of working folks. After that, it was all uphill, and only the 3 has remained affordable to the masses. The days of the 2002 are long gone....

editor_karl

Ugh! Been about as sick as I've ever been over the past three days. The symptoms of this one could support its own discussion, but I'll try to stay on topic.

While I've been mostly bedridden recently, the wife took her first drive in our long-term Honda Accord Hybrid. She thought it was very cool, and had an interesting take on the vehicle:

"This is one of those cars you can be passionate about driving. Not because it has passionate driving traits, but because you know you are drivng cutting edge technology that likely points to the future."

This is a woman who normally uses my 1970 Plymouth GTX to shuttle the kids and buy groceries, so she has a unique perspective on modern cars that can still inspire passion.

Since she drove this car before I did (it was delivered to my house by a kindly Edmunds road test editor), I have to go with her driving impressions so far.

Hopefully I'll make it back to the real world in the next 24 hours and have some first-hand comments to offer.

vcheng

kurtamaxxguy

Karl, thanks for all your posts and reviews!
I have two questions:

1. Given all the security fears the USA has been facing since 9/11, might those fears be a reason why, in spite of high gas prices and road congestion, Americans now want huge vehicles and powerful engines in the belief that these vehicles will make them "safer"?

2. How much horsepower in a vehicle is enough? (subpoints: Do we need a viper V10 in a Chrysler 300? A 1000 Hp Bugatti?)

editor_karl

A good question. The last time we tested that model was waaaay back in 2001, as the I30 in our 2001 Entry Level Luxury Sedan test: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=46528/pageId=4787.

However, many of the items that placed it 7 out of 9 in 2001 still hold true for the 2004 I35.
1. It's a glorified version of the Maxima, which is itself a fine automobile. Yes, the ES 330 is a glorified Camry, but the Camry isn't exactly a compelling car, just a very rational one. The Maximum has performance and a solid foundation in luxury, so why pay more for an Infiniti version. The jump from Maxima to I35 just wasn't enough for most people to justify the extra $$$.
2. By 2002 you had the G35, so if you really wanted luxury and performance, that's the one you bought. Again, Toyota makes it work with both the ES 330 and the IS 300, but that brings me to my third point...
3. Toyota has a longstanding advantage of being...well, Toyota. They have a massive loyalty base and a relatively spotless history of building solid product. Don't foget that the majority of the I30/I35's lifestyle was during Nissan's dark years (1996-2001). During this period it wasn't "cool" or "hip" to buy a Nissan, which it is again since Ghosn has been crowned the greatest man in the automotive industry (sorry Lutz). During those dark Nissan days only the strongest product prospered, and the I30/I35 just wasn't a super strong offering, especially with the less expensive Maxima readily available for less cash.

editor_karl

Ah, two more good questions (see how much I can post when I'm stuck at home sick!!).

1. I think you're partially correct. You're suggesting that people are buying big cars to be protected from terrorism. I believe it's slightly more complex. People who used to fly to Hawaii or the Caribbean or Europe for vacation getaways now face a much gloomier obstacle course when using air travel. Even if you think flying is safe, and even if you think you'll be safe once you get to a foreign country, the bottom line process of using an airplane is simply a pain in the you-know-what. As a result, many people (myself included) are taking to America's roads for vacations. Two years ago I drove a Honda Pilot from Los Angeles to Cooperstown, New York while visiting friends and relatives in Colorado, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and Texas along the way. It was fun -- and no body cavity searches required!! Plus, I could pack as much stuff as I wanted without fighting for overhead space or dealing with secondary screening on checked luggage (luggage that could very well get sent to a different continent from where I'm going, anyway).

But I did need a big vehicle with plenty of room for kid paraphernalia and the latest gadgets (nav system, in-car entertainment, etc.) to make the thousands of miles roll by with minimal pain. So, did I drive the Pilot for security? No, I drove it to avoid the security at airports. But both circumstances are a direct result of 9/11.

2. The horsepower race is being driven by the same factor that drives everything in corporate America: money. Right now there's an appetite for high horsepower engines (despite rising fuel costs). This means that most companies would rather be able to brag about having the highest horsepower number for a given segment than worry about its practical uses on increasingly crowded roads lined with increasiingly expensive gas stations.

Don't get me wrong, I love capitalism and letting the market drive design. I'm just saying that as long as consumers buy 300-plus horsepower SUVs and 500-plus horsepower sports cars, the carmakers will keep making them (as well they should). It would take something drastic to change this situation, and I don't even count $3 a gallon as drastic. If you spend $50 a month on gas and it goes up to $80 a month, how much does that $30 really affect you? That's less than most people pay for their ISP.

So, how much horsepower in a vehicle is enough? However much it takes to get people to stop buying them. So far we haven't hit that point.

kyfdx

If I buy a 500 HP BMW M5, then I can pay for the extra gas, just by dropping my DSL service...

Plus, I'll be so busy driving my new car, I won't have time for the internet, anyway...

Oh, honey.. I found a way to pay for that new car...

lev_berkovich

Karl, Although I will agree in general with your "capitalistic" point of view, I still think that you underestimate the influence of the media, including Edmunds.com that glorifies the extra power.
If more of respected reviewers will emphasize the reason versus the power hunger, we might see the different outcome at the dealer's lots.

One example - the XC90 and S80 that my wife and I drive. We have opted for the lower power - 2.9 and 2.5T in both cases and believe that both vehicles have more than enough "muscles" for the everyday' drive.
But all and every "official" review from the auto magazine or web site defines these trim as underpowered. And no matter what it is, if I as a consumer is pre-conditioned that 200HP is not enough, I surely will "feel" it.
My point is that if you, personally, along with your colleges will take a different stand and start convincing general public that enough is enough, we will be much closer to the rest of the world with the average size of the car's engine.

By the way, most of Europeans mange to drive much less powerful cars like maniacs, compare to the average American driver

stever

Karl, just what do your neighbors say when they see you driving a different car every day?

Steve, Host

andys120

I don't even count $3 a gallon as drastic. If you spend $50 a month on gas and it goes up to $80 a month, how much does that $30 really affect you? That's less than most people pay for their ISP

$50 a Month! What Planet do you live on? My weekly fillup is close to $50.

I believe we've already reached a tipping point where fuel prices are affecting buying decisions, witness the decline in sales of big trucks, and SUVs. Most people who can afford MegaHP cars aren't affected but $3 gas will work it's way down the food chain and hurt the sales of powerful cars intended for the ordinary consumer
(Mustangs, 300Cs, etc.)

nitromax

2. The horsepower race is being driven by the same factor that drives everything in corporate America: money. Right now there's an appetite for high horsepower engines (despite rising fuel costs). This means that most companies would rather be able to brag about having the highest horsepower number for a given segment than worry about its practical uses on increasingly crowded roads lined with increasiingly expensive gas stations.


I agree with you, but I think it's sad. A lot of this extra HP goes to waste with most drivers and most of the time.

There's also an appetite for liposuction and makeovers but we don't see cars being equipped mith liposuction machines and collagen implanters.
:-)
"I had my thighs done on my way to work this morning"

"check out my lips....did them at lunch while waiting for my Big Mac meal"

LOL

Don't get me wrong, I love capitalism and letting the market drive design. I'm just saying that as long as consumers buy 300-plus horsepower SUVs and 500-plus horsepower sports cars, the carmakers will keep making them (as well they should). It would take something drastic to change this situation, and I don't even count $3 a gallon as drastic. If you spend $50 a month on gas and it goes up to $80 a month, how much does that $30 really affect you? That's less than most people pay for their ISP.

I would say many consumers don't know what they are doing and they act like moths drawn to the light (or the bug zapper)

So you are suggesting people could get rid of their ISP to buy more gas?
Just so they can maintain their normal driving routine...but drive in style?
once again....sad
(not saying you are sad, it's just that some people will do this)

and so much for checking out cars and their features on Edmunds.com because they no longer have an ISP...
....or cable

But that Durango with the Hemi is out in the driveway and everyone in the neighborhood is in envy....or so the owner thinks.
:-)

There's too much excess in todays world....everyone seems to be trying to out-do each other with superficial things.

kurtamaxxguy

Thanks for feedback, Karl! You are absolutely right about the airlines - my last year-ago airtrip was very unpleasant (nasty security check, bus like accomidations). A great disincentive to fly.

One thing not mentioned much, though... We now have huge traffic jams thanks to all the extra "avoid-airline" traffic. Ex: The LA,CA through Sacramento CA freeway system is a giant parking lot during any major holiday.
Including more huge trucks, the traffic is pulverizing our interstate system and many local roads, and offering potholes and other ruts that eat dubs and their skinny rubber for lunch.

So how is the USA (and us) going to keep the roads working? New Taxes? Tolls? Use fees levelled at the vehicles that damage or clog the roads the most?

davem2001

I definitely agree. I find it interesting how perceptions of what is "underpowered" have really changed over the last 20 years...

I remember when the first Rabbit GTI came out in 1983 - people were thrilled because it had 90hp!

Now, the Jetta is thought to be waaay underpowered with 115hp!

Or... the first Mustang 5.0 in 1982 had 157 hp. Less than a 4-cyl Camry has today... Now the "wimpy" base V6 Mustang has over 200hp and does 0-60 in around 7 secs.

Etc.. etc....

I'd say 10,20 years ago a car with a 0-60 time of around 10-11 seconds was considered average or almost quick...now that's considered dog slow...

davem2001

Definitely, air travel is a pain in the wazoo these days... anything less than about 300 miles or so, it's quicker door to door just to drive, when you factor in driving to the airport, parking, the security check, the delayed flight, the cattle car accomodations on the flight, the search for your luggage when you land, etc...

Much more pleasant just to drive, IMO.

editor_karl

I shouldn't have said ISP. I usually say cable when making this point, and not because either of these items should be given up to pay for gas. I simply mean to call out that people spend $50-$100 a month on pure luxury items, every month, and they don't even flinch. If you are spending over $50 a month on cable (I am, by the way) that means you're spending $600 a year to watch extra TV channels.

As such, it's my opinion that (most) people will spend an extra $600 a year on gas without even thinking about it.

I'm not putting a "good" or "bad" judgment call on this, I'm just stating what I believe to be a fact.

But you bring up a good point with regard to cosmetic surgery. The essence of life in America is having both the means and the freedom to buy what you DON'T really need.

I'd challenge anyone to look at their last credit card statement and identify the things they HAD to buy...

(said in a Yakov Smirnov voice) America! What a country!

editor_karl

A couple things to point out here:

You say, "We have opted for the lower power - 2.9 and 2.5T in both cases and believe that both vehicles have more than enough "muscles" for the everyday' drive."

Well that's great...for you. But it's possible your definition of "enough muscles" may be different from mine, or anyone elses. Are you suggesting there is some universal definition of "enough muscles" and anything more than that is unnecessary and wasteful for any and all buyers?

What about people with large families that live in Denver. Have you ever driven from Denver to Vail in a 2.5T XC90, loaded with passengers and luggage? People in that circumstance might have a different definition of "enough" power.

This also goes to what I just addressed in my last post. How many people out there are looking for "enough" horsepower? What's that old banking/investment tagling, "Because Americans want to succeed, not just survive." I will not try to decide what is "enough" for people. I will tell them what is available at any given price point, and let them decide. And if one vehicle at that price point feels noticeably more lethargic than another vehicle at that price point, I'll be sure to report it in my road test (I'd consider it negligent not to report such a fact).

Finally, even if everyone at Edmunds decided to take an anti-horsepower stance it wouldn't make a difference in the free market. All that would happen is someone would buy a vehicle thinking it had "enough" power because our road test said so (or failed to say it didn't), and then they'd find themselves crawling up a hill and/or unable to grab open slots in traffic. Then their opinion would be "Well, I guess Edmunds.com doesn't report the important stuff, I'll have to go somewhere else for the facts."

Horsepower exists because horsepower sells, and it doesn't sell just because road test editors like it. It sells because almost everyone likes it. I can't change that fact by ignoring it in my car reviews.

doug889

Great points, Karl. Let the market work, let capitalism work (it works!). I grew up in a communist country and I will take capitalism and American way of life any minute.

davem2001

I'm not saying the HP race is driven by the automotive media, what I'm saying is, it's pretty interesting to me to see how the perception of "enough" power has changed over the years...

I just read a review in Car and Driver of the 2005 SSR with 390hp and it was talking about how the 2004 model with "only" 300hp was underpowered and had a 0-60 of "only" 7.0 secs.

I remember back in the 80's when an average car probably had 110hp and was lucky to get under 12 sec 0-60.

I wonder if, 20 years from now, we'll be reading reviews and the writer will say, "it only has 400 hp and can't get under 6.0 sec 0-60, so it's a little slow..."

I'm not complaining or saying that the goverment needs to intervene, I just find it interesting how perceptions have changed...

I guess we're living in a Golden Age of performance right now...

andys120

The perception that we need "more power" is in part because of the dramatic increase in weight incurred in recent years.

Cars in excess of a ton and a half are common now
(I drive a compact that weighs 3300 lbs).

Back in the day I drove a 2000 lb sports car with
all of 105 hp. Like everyone I wished for another 20 or 30 horses but I had fun spinning the little 1600 and wringing every once of power out of it.

davem2001

Yes, that is true, but still ... I'd say 'average' 0-60 times have dropped from maybe the 11,12 seconds range in the 80's to maybe 8,9 seconds today...

kurtamaxxguy

Yes, free market is better than communism by far!

And looks like the HP market is evolving - now a 450 HP engine in the "Cobra GT500" version of the new mustang was just announced (7000 per year - get in line now!).
Will the Viper V10 option in the SRT-8 be far behind?
It's nice to have a responsive vehicle, but what's point of engines that melt the tires?

nitromax

And looks like the HP market is evolving - now a 450 HP engine in the "Cobra GT500" version of the new mustang was just announced (7000 per year - get in line now!).
Will the Viper V10 option in the SRT-8 be far behind?
It's nice to have a responsive vehicle, but what's point of engines that melt the tires?

I agree. I fear we're going to hit a wall similar to what happened in the 70's.
Gluttony is never a good thing.

andys120

Just as in the 70's the insurance industry will "tax" big hp out of existence.

There's an article in today's USA TODAY about potential safety problems with High powered vehicles with high-centers of gravity
SUVs and P/ups

davem2001

I'd say between the insurance industry and the rising price of gas, just enjoy it while it lasts...the pendulum might swing back toward the late 70s, 80s style of "performance" in another 10 years!

allwheeldriv3

in another 15 years, only the upper class will be able to afford to drive fully gas powered cars as their primary form of transportation....i predict that around a decade from now, a majority of people will be at least planning on making the switch to hybrids(and still pay $100+ a month for gas) or electric/hydrogen-cell vehicles, and many will have made the switch already.....

kurtamaxxguy

Thanks Karl for HP comments. Agreed, one needs more HP for some vehicles and situations (a 100 HP small car is essentially a hockey puck on LA CA freeways). Then again, what good does 600 HP do in a lightweight roadster do other than vaporize the tires? If folks wanna pay the extra $$$, insurance and related fees to run these things, fine, but it seems a waste.

On another note, what do your daily observations portray as the most __aggressively driven__ car brand out there?

What I see in LA, CA. is BMW far and away's the most aggressive, followed by Audi, Mercedes, and (because of the "tuners"?) Honda Accord.

You drive far more than I do...would welcome your comments as to "why" as well as "what".

allwheeldriv3

in jersey, the most aggressivly driven cars are:
1. honda/acura (tuned)
2. high hp SUVs (Escalade, H2, Cayenne, X5)
3. cop cars

i very rarely see anyone abuse the power of their M3, A6, 911, EVO, or WRX STi and i see all of these cars on a daily basis. when i goto my girlfriends town(very rich area) i see people going the speed limit plus/minus 5mph in their ferraris, bentleys, and mclarens....only once have i seen a ferrari driven the way it was meant to be, and it was beautiful for 3 seconds(i tried to keep up in my minivan....lost cause)...

editor_karl

I keep saying I need to write a book:

The North American Spotter's Guide to Vehicles, and What They Say about Their Drivers

I've driven around this country enough to have a pretty strong opinion about what any given make/model really says about its owner, though I readily admit there are frequent exceptions to my generalizations.

That said, you won't get me making any specific comments here. I don't need the aggrevation of labeling a given model's driver type only to hear from them for the next 30 posts.

I will say that along PCH I see plenty of high-dollar/exotic machinery, and I rarely see these cars being driven more aggressively than other, "normal" cars. I'm also shocked at the level of aggression I see from truck/van drivers, often with corporate names splashed all over the side of them (I'm always scanning them for the "How am I driving?" sticker).

I see plenty of aggressive import tuner cars, but plenty of non-aggressive ones, too, so I can't make that generalization.

But that damn Oscar Mayer Weinermobile (yes, I've seen it on several occasions) needs to quit tailgating! Ha!

kurtamaxxguy

I forgot forums are often flame havens (easy given fx deadlines I deal with lately...).

Let's hope you and/or associates can put such a book of un_forum_able goodies together!

jchan2

I've driven the G35, the ES330 and my I35. And my favorite would probably have to be my I35, especially for the price I paid (you can wander over to the I35 Prices Paid board to find out what I paid, or ask me) The G's ride just seemed to be too stiff for me. My highway commute is 110 Miles roundtrip at least twice a week.

And due to the fact that the Maxima went through a redesign, the I35 ended up being cheaper than a similarly equipped Maxima 3.5 SL, which would have been my third choice as a car behind the Toyota Avalon XLS.

I also slightly prefer the styling of the I35 over its Maxima cousin, but the fact that I got the prestige of the Infiniti brand (due to the fact that there is a Nissan plant nearby, you actually see quite a few Nissans and Infinitis running around) for a lower price than a Honda Accord EX-V6 just sealed the deal for me.

And I do have to honestly admit that if I had bought a car in 2003 and if it came down to the Maxima vs. the Infiniti I35, I probably would have bought a Maxima since I knew the redesign was coming, I could get one at a huge discount, and I would rather have $3000 in the bank than a more prestigious ride.

Guess I took advantage of Nissan's dark years and got a decent, reliable car that's pleasant to drive.

And by the way, I think Edmunds.com reviewed the Infiniti I35 in 2002 (Entry Level Luxury Comparison Test) where it faced off against the Lexus ES300, the Saab 9-5 Arc, the Chrysler 300M Special and the Volkswagen Passat W8. It tied for second with, of course, the Lexus ES300.

editor_karl

You're right about the 2002 comparison test. That was the year we did two "Entry Level Luxury Sedan" comparos, but I had forgotten that. The other test was for the "sporty-luxury" cars like the 3 Series and G35, while this test was for the "luxury-luxury" cars like the Chrysler 300 and Infiniti I35.

jchan2

Guess there's not many non-sporty entry level luxury cars out there. You have the Mercedes-Benz C240, the Lexus ES330 and maybe the Volvo S60. But otherwise, that's about it. All the others try to market performance and horsepower, cars like the G35, 3-Series, IS300, CTS, etc. Is the Entry Level Luxury-Luxury market dying? It sure seems like it.

andys120

Is the Entry Level Luxury-Luxury market dying? It sure seems like it.

You left out the X-Type and the Volvo S40 (the S60 isn't "entry level").

The fact is that most of the people who buy an
entry level sub-compact want a sports sedan
and are willing to accept the trade off of better performance and handling in a smaller lighter car for less room and fewer gadgets than a traditional luxury sedan.

So yeah the EL-Lux-Lux market is dying off and being replaced by entry level Sport-Lux. Wagons are gaining in popularity as well.

macakava

There is a smart reason why SMART drivers in cars like Ferraris, Vipers, Corvettes, etc tend to stay close to the speed limits. Because these cars are more visible and get the "attention seeking" from both Smokey and other folks(who the drivers are targetting). Another reason is that the drivers know the have the power to blow the doors off almost any other vehicle if they want to. So there is no need to show it! So we must pick our battles.

I drive over the speed limit regularly in my conservative sedan(a Continental) and a few times, I have seen Smokey speed past me to go after one of these sportier cars that is going just as fat as I am. Of course, I frequently look for rabbit drivers ahead of me that I can use as bait to flush out Smokey ahead. The more rabbits, the better to hide! If i see no rabbit, I stay within 5-9 over the limit. It works as I have not had a speeding ticket in 15 years.

kurtamaxxguy

On a different topic, Karl, I've noted many postings in the forums where people, stung by bad service and very weak manufacturer support, end up having to go to lemon law arbitration and usually are successful in getting rid of their "dogs". What is sad is that the "lemons" problems were often similar to other vehicles problems that __were__ successfully repaired elsewhere!

What _is_ the problem with the auto industry? I've heard the same old tired manufacturer statement that dealers are independent businesses and can do whatever they want since "time began". Yet it is dealers we interface with - their actions are a factor in whether we will be repeat buyers or not. Why won't the manufacturers do a better job of retraining or (worst case) terminating the bad ones? Or does the auto industry truly believe repeat buyers are of little value?

jchan2

The S60 isn't terribly expensive- If you add a few options to the 2.5 model it comes in nicely just under $36,000, which is about where Lexus charges for its ES330. The S40 is questionable- I'd call the T5 model more of a sport sedan and the 2.4i more of a compact luxury sedan.

The X-Type I forgot. Sorry.

Guess Lexus, Jaguar, Volvo and Mercedes-Benz are the only luxury companies still selling entry level luxury cars that don't emphasize performance.

nitromax

Speaking of entry level luxury cars. I'm keeping my eye on the new A3 sportback that's due out this May.

editor_karl

The dealer situation is very frustrating to me. They wield a lot of (too much?) political and economic power, and I don't see that changing any time soon. This means that even bad dealers are basically untouchable, and the only way to not deal with them is to...well, not deal with them.

There's a local dealer near Edmunds (I will keep brand to myself) that is absolutely horrible. We used them repeatedly simply because they were close to us, and we kept hoping that each bad situation was an enigma and not par for the course. After about the 10th bad situation (out of about 13) we realized they were simply a bad dealer, and we stopped using them. It's a pain, because they are physically the closest dealer to us, but we'd rather drive further (which in L.A. is saying a lot!) then put up with their horrible service.

To me, this is one of the two areas left for manufacturers to differentiate themselves. No manufacturer can use the claim of building relatively safe, comfortable, luxurious or dependable cars as the reason to buy their models, because they ALL make relatively safe, comfortable, luxurious or dependable cars. Now they have to differentiate their products with unique styling and dealer experience.

It will be interesting to see how much time/energy manufacturers put into improving their dealer service, because I truly think that is the last great frontier for them to conquer in the quest to capture market share.

allwheeldriv3

so true...

i just bought a volvo and i had mixed experiences with them while i was shopping. i went to the volvo dealership 3 times in 2 months and every time they were better and better. they actually remembered me by name after only one visit there and almost 2 months in between visits. i did have issues with them, but it all worked out for the best when i scored my S40 T5 AWD for a sweet price(visit the volvo s40: prices paid thread if you want details)

durring my 3 month window shopping/test driving spree, this is what i've encountered.

Honda/Acura: the dealers of this brand were relatively good. I went to 2 different dealerships in my area and both were informative, helpfull and ready to bargin(which was suprising to me since honda's generally sell themselves)....i only have one minor complaint with one of the dealers...they seemed to ignore me and even help people that showed up after me before they even greeted me(probably because i look like i'm no older than 18 years old)

VW: these guys acted like i figured the honda dealers would as far as haggling went. they made the impression that they have no problem selling their cars for msrp. they were almost as stuck up as the BMW guys.

BMW: these dealers(i visited 2 of these as well) were hands down the worst. all if the dealers i talk to were snobby, noone wanted anything to do with me, and when i actually got one of them to talk numbers, they quoted me over $45,000 for a 330xi(nowhere near fully loaded, way over msrp)

Mercedes: they were almost as snobby as the beemer guys, but atleast they didn't rip my pants off, bend me over and try to stick it to me...they actually tried to sell me a car at a competative price.

Subaru: one of the best if not the best i experienced. i was given time to look around the lot before i got hounded and they weren't pushy at all once we did start talking. they let me totally abuse a WRX STi for almost 45 mins, it was awesome. these guys were great and i would have bought a WRX STi from them if it wasn't such a cop magnet.

EDIT: Mazda and Mitsubishi dealers were on par with the Subaru guys, but i got dirty looks and was told to "slow down"(the mazda guy) when i pushed their vehicles(6, rx8, EVO) in the test drives

Pontiac: i went to these guys to check out the new G6 and i got bum rushed immediately. seriously, i dont think these guys see a customer for weeks at a time or something...they were salavating....totally annoying

not that i know from first hand experience, but i've heard that Saturn dealers are superb...

jchan2

I've had some interesting experiences car shopping, especially at a big Honda dealer.

I used to live in a city that had 4-5 Honda dealers. I visited 3 of them.

Dealer One: pretty normal- a test drive, then a visit to their office, then a little discussion about the changes between model years, etc.

Dealer Two: I test drove the Odyssey- again. They had front-loaded the car with a ton of junk and they claimed they couldn't remove them. The van was a EX model, no leather, etc, but it stickered for almost $28,000. They said the trunkmat couldn't be removed, but I just lifted it out of the trunk and said "Here's your trunkmat!" I offered $27,000 for the car ($190 below sticker price before all that crap) and they refused. They stuck to their offer of sticker plus $500. (after all the dealer installed crap)

Dealer Three: The most courteous. We sat down, and the salesperson said that he couldn't let us test drive an Odyssey because the one Odyssey they had was already sold. We talked a little about price, and offered $500 under sticker. The dealership took the offer immediately and asked us what color we wanted. They had a beige coming in, and we said "sure". A month later, our van arrived and he spent 2 hours going over the whole van with us. Probably my most positive car buying experience so far.

Infiniti dealer: When it came time for me to buy a new car again, I set up an appointment for a test drive. The salesman talked with us briefly about why the I35 was discontinued and took us outside to see his remaining inventory. He tossed us the keys to a car and said "See ya in a few minutes" Later, after a brief discussion about the actual car, we came around to price. He offered $27,988, and we declined.
A month later, he e-mailed us telling us that he was down to his final three I35s. We made our offer and he called us back. After some brief negotiating, we settled on a price. At delivery, he just tossed us the keys and said "Enjoy." without explaining all the features or patiently going over the paperwork with us.

Conclusion: It doesn't take a luxury branded dealership to get a good experience and good service.

Although I have heard that Saturn's dealers are very friendly and when I visited the Lexus dealer the salesperson was also very polite and courteous.

editor_karl

Yesterday I did instrumented testing on the new Altima SE-R and the Honda Accord Hybrid:

Altima SE-R -- I haven't driven an Altima for awhile, and I forgot how much I like this sedan. Excellent steering feel, comfortable and roomy interior, and, on the SE-R version especially, spot-on suspension tuning and lots of torque. They've also upgraded the interior materials for 2005, which was always this car's weak spot. Unfortunately, we had an automatic version, so the the quarter mile times were only in the low 15s. And while the braking distances were short, the pedal really shutters when ABS kicks in (much more so than with a Camry or Accord).

Honda Accord Hybrid: I have to say right off the bat that I'm not as impressed with Honda's hybrid system as I am with Toyota's. When you drive a Prius (or Escape) and the car's engine doesn't even start until you pass 25-30 mph, you really feel like you're driving something different. With the Accord, you get a car that shuts the engine off at stop lights and uses coasting/braking to recharge the battery. I know it's still a very advanced system, but it doesn't feel nearly as different, or "special," as the Toyota version. Also, it only pulled a 16 flat in the quarter mile, which seems pretty slow for a 255 horsepower drivetrain. Again, I know that hybrids aren't like conventional drivetrains in that they don't simply combine maximium engine and motor power to provide maximum acceleration, but I still was hoping for better times. At least it still has Accord steering, ride quality and interior design, which I love.

And by the way, it's getting high 20s in fuel mileage. Not exactly staggering...

davem2001

Tend to agree about the Accord Hybrid... for my money, I'd just buy a 4 cylinder Accord, costs a whole lot less, real world performance and gas mileage probably isn't much different...

kyfdx

And, you can get a sunroof..

davem2001

The thing that makes me wary of a hybrid now is the battery life. I tend to keep cars forever, drive them til the wheels fall off. I still have a 92 Integra with 130K miles, still going strong, I have no intention of getting rid of it...but, if it were a hyrbrid it would be ready for a very expensive new battery, and it wouldn't be cost justifiable.

I'd be more comfortable with a hybrid if the battery life was more like 20 years, 250K miles

kurtamaxxguy

Thanks for note on dealers, Karl. Toyota may be "getting it" as they supposedly will implement what they've learned from Scion customers and dealers into the Toyota dealer practices, getting rid of some of the hassles and possibly improving service.

As for the USA and Euros, I'm not holding my breath.

How does the new Scion Concept t2b strike you?

editor_karl

The t2b is yet another of what I'm calling the "small armored assault vehicle" craze (Ford SYNus, Dodge Nitro etc).

I'm not sure where all this anger and fear is coming from, but apparently people want Hummer attitude in Mini Cooper dimensions.

These cars are cool in terms of creativity and features, but I don't really support the basic theme.

kurtamaxxguy

Perhaps the influence of gangsta rap is responsible for assault vehicle craze?

And wasn't there another time in history where "assault vehicle" type cars were popular?

badtoy

I'm sorry, but I have the sense that you're looking at Japanese offerings through the lens of an American. If you're looking for Toyota's answer to the Hummer, look no further than the upcoming FJ concept. The xB and its progeny were and are not intended to compete with the bloated monsters so cherished by the Wonder Bread population between these shores -- it is intended to serve the needs and wishes of 20-somethings both here and in Japan. Boomers need not apply (though they're welcome if they behave themselves).

Motor on....!! =D

mirth

badtoy - I think he wasn't referring so much to the size of the vehicle so much as the "armored car" appearance (like the Ford SYNus concept).