The Future Of The Manual Transmission

Mr_Shiftright

Sure, SUV designers have learned a lot from their mistakes (and their lawsuits) about stability and handling. It's not really the SUV part that makes me decline a manual transmission in a particular car---I just don't like rowing big vehicles around with a gearshift lever. Besides, any kind of luxury vehicle with a manual transmission probably retards its resale value these days.

ateixeira

early 1st generation with something like 13" wheels

14s actually, and very light at that. The BBS optional ones weighed something like 8.9 lbs per one web site.

Almost no unsprung weight for the suspension to fight with, just like the Elan that inspired it.

Tires were 185/60HR14, not exactly the stickiest stuff in the world.

stickguy

my first new car was a 1985 (dang, i am old...) Dodge colt with the sport package (basically the turbo car, without the turbo) and it had that size tire. Absolutley the best handling car I had ever driven, since the tires were basically showroom stock racing tires (Yokohama A008s). Summer compound (did not work well in a NE winter..), and barely any tread. The outer 1/3 looked like a golf ball, with dimples.

but man, that thing stuck like glue. Which was good, because with 68 HP on tap, you did not want to lose any momentum.

ateixeira

With autocross tires those were hard to beat. They'd crush a lot of vehicles with far more power. On a dyno a 90-93 Miata would pull about 99hp at the wheels.

victor23

To those who take their vehicle to a race track: I hear ya.

To all others: where do you guys have all this "fun" and "engagement"? I live in the land of speed limits (so much for your HP), 4-way-stops (so much for your handling/body roll), left-lane-campers and cruise controls. Everybody drives like in a funeral cortege; if you accelerate harder (even though still within the speed limit), it looks rude, or "maybe that guy has some personal problems". So much for your torque.

Now, think about it: huge trucks/SUVs are, in effect, deadly weapons and should be considered like that. They should have different rules of the road, lower speed limits, different lane discipline, and different driver's license requirements. Fair enough. Don't you think that driving SUV on a public road in a manner when you could say the difference between 0.6g and 0.91g should be treated like brandishing a machine gun or RPG? My apologies to those who would say that I am trolling.

fintail

Heck, my fintail has 13" wheels. When new, the performance of that car was considered to be pretty amazing. It doesn't weigh much, so small wheels are tolerable.

fintail

So where in the Puget Sound area do you live?

Speed limits and certain controls are only illegal to break if you get caught...and certain times of day can be used for more enjoyable driving. Early Sunday morning off the speed-trapped (it's all about safety, really!) interstates isn't so bad here.

habitat1

I'll take my stab at answering your questions. First on the "fun" and "engagement", this is a relative issue. I don't have to drive like Mario Andretti 24/7 to prefer the crisp, nimble handling of a well engineered sport sedan. Hell, just being able to point my former 911 down the highway and have it track like it was on rails was enjoyable. As far as preferring a stick, I've been driving one for about 35 years, so there really aren't any conditions - even stop and go rush hour traffic - in which I have ever said to myself I'd rather be sitting in an automatic. I know that the new DSG's and PDK type transmissions allow for multiple downshifts or upshifts, but for an old fart like me, I can use my left foot and right hand and always be in the right gear for the conditions without even thinking about it.

As for the 0.6g vs. 0.9g SUV difference, again, no need to drive like your hair is on fire to feel that difference in handling. Our old 1996 Trooper was downright scary if you tried to take an on or off ramp at the posted speed. Our current 2005 MDX is pretty good. The 2012 BMW X5 we have on order is more stable than 90% of cars out there, perhaps 14" wheeled Miata's and my aforementioned 911 aside. The fact that something like an X5 or Cayenne handles well is a GOOD thing, as an accident avoidance maneuver in our old Trooper was essentially an accident waiting to happen.

Frankly, the biggest danger on the road today are the distracted drivers who, instead of being "engaged" and having some involvement behind the wheel, are playing with their smartphone, Bose 23 speaker stereo or some other electronic gizmo that has no place in the process of DRIVING a deadly weapon, as you put it.

I'm sorry to hear that you sound like you live in bumper to bumper traffic that is miserable to drive in. But even if I was in your shoes, I would personally be in even more misery driving a floppy slushbox GM sedan or SUV than a TL 6-speed, 911 or X5. Whether the price of any of those vehicles is worth it under such conditions is another question that only has subjective answers.

ateixeira

Here in the DC area they're moving to more mobile speed cams, so they can pick a different spot each day.

I'd be OK with that type of enforcement if the speed limits weren't so artificially low.

Having said that, I drive a car that's fun at low speeds. It's all about preserving speed in the turns.

fintail

I can deal with such cash grabbing shenanigans in school zones, but otherwise...we both know they won't be used in a responsible manner. I hope the cams become a target for vandals, along with the homes of the camera operators and legislators who are in bed with them. It is an especially dirty example of crony capitalism.

Slow car fast can be fun...I know it is a lot more engaging to get my fintail moving around at a decent clip than the E55. Gotta plan ahead for hills, turns, and make sure it isn't in 4th when you want to get moving.

nippononly

Just out of curiosity, what kind of city/highway gas mileage does your sister's diesel actually get?

My sister actually DOES drive the X5 like her hair is on fire, all the time, so in her mostly-city driving she gets mid-to-high teens for MPG. When we have taken it on highway trips I have found that even when maintaining 75-80 mph with bursts to 90 or more for passing, it will pull low 20s for mpg overall.

I want to echo a thought expressed above - it is much more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Of course, I am lucky enough to have a commute on a rural highway with a canyon between me and my destination a couple of days a week. :-)

But I will also echo what others are saying: even stuck in slow-moving traffic or driving at low speeds around town, I very much appreciate a car that is fun to drive for how it handles and the way it engages me in the drive. No big cars or SUVs for me. ;-)

ateixeira

They removed a speed cam from Canal Rd recently, 5 miles from the nearest school and a road with no pedestrians at all (not even side walks).

It was vandalized at least 3 times. Once some police were servicing it and a Prius drove by showing them the middle finger. The irony...

The new strategy is mobile speed cams, I'm sure it will raise funds safety awareness.

habitat1

I'm hoping to do a little better than your experience, gas mileage wise. A friend of mine bought a 2011 335d and he averages 25 around town and hits 38-40 on the highway at 70-75 mph between DC and the Outer Banks. (i.e. both of which are above the EPA estimates). Our independent mechanic traded his older gas X5 for a Mercedes ML350 Bluetech and averages 28-30+ on the highway. He guessed the X5 diesel would be comparable. He helped talk me into the diesel with his assessment that they last forever and require less maintenance over the long term.

On the other hand, the Cayenne GTS manual transmission that I test drove a few years ago can't pass a gas station without stopping.

stever

require less maintenance over the long term

Highly debatable, as the pundits say. Check back with us in a decade on that please. Meanwhile, you can try to catch up with that Irv guy and his P1800. AT unfortunately, which kind of shoots the "manuals last longer" theory in the foot too.

habitat1

AT unfortunately, which kind of shoots the "manuals last longer" theory in the foot too.

You need to double check your homework before you turn it into an "unfortunate" lesson. I distinctly see Irv shifting at about the 55 second mark in this video.

Manual Transmission on the P1800S

Come on, who in the world would consider driving a slushbox 3 million miles "fun"?? Way to go Irv....I think we should crown him the King of the Manual Transmission! And a living example of why, every once in awhile, we should all try to take the long way home...before it's to late.

stever

heh, I really screwed that one up - went to three links and thought all of them said his was an AT.

Found one that says his 3rd gear synchro had to be changed as well as the front and rear seals. (Design News)

Still, not bad for not being a diesel rig. :shades:

plekto

The gear selectors on those old Volvos were like the 140/240 series in that they were all in a single line. So it's not uncommon to see people power-shifting their automatics in Volvos.

stickguy

there are interior shots on the web that clearly show the stick shift though.

habitat1

Still, not bad for not being a diesel rig.

I'll give you that one. Although it also doesn't hurt that the engine is only pulling around 2450 lbs and Irv obviously treats it with more TLC than his ex-wife ever got.

One other curiosity. In one video he stated he went through something like 116 tires. That's only 29 sets. A little hard to believe that he's getting 100k miles per set?? His 8,000+ tankfuls of gas works out to about 25-30 miles per gallon, so that sounds right.

stickguy

tires sound better when you say he gets about 1 year per set.

nippononly

A friend of mine bought a 2011 335d and he averages 25 around town and hits 38-40 on the highway at 70-75 mph

I'm thinking the X5 is a much HIGHER and heavier vehicle than the 335d, which will severely limit mileage on the highway.

That said, the silly "instant MPG" needle that seems to be a mandatory instrument on every car these days does swing to the upper 20s in the X5D if you lay off the speed and stick to 65 mph or so....I think it's rated for 19/26, whereas the 335d is rated for 23/36 according to Edmunds. So with a 10-point spread I would think you would have to nurse it to see upper 20s, which aligns with my experience with it.

Just noticed: the 335i is rated 3 points BETTER for fuel economy with the automatic than with the manual. :-( :-(

habitat1

Just noticed: the 335i is rated 3 points BETTER for fuel economy with the automatic than with the manual.

Most manual transmissions in higher performance cars are now rated lower mpg than their 7-8+ speed automatic counterparts. Some of that is real, some isn't. I believe BMW's figures assume the auto start/auto stop function is always activated and, from what I've heard, it is a frustrating gas saving feature at best for most drivers.

Porsche now offers a 7-speed manual in the 911, with the 7th gear a very tall highway cruising gear. It still doesn't get them to the PDK mpg ratings, but cuts the difference in half and is really only for 75-80 mph+ cruising. Top speed is still precisely achieved in 6th gear at just under redline. Not that I would ever test that fact, but you have to love Porsche engineering precision.

I have a 2004 TL 6-speed manual; a golfing buddy has a 2005 automatic. We followed each other last April about 450 miles from DC to Augusta to go watch a Master's practice round. I beat him by a fraction (28.8 vs. 28.3). But more important to me, every time we came up on slow traffic, I could quickly shift down from 5th or 6th to 3rd floor it and pass in much less time than it safely took him.

brentnelson

My opinion is in future people will use automatic transmission because automatic transmission technology is improving , and its gives fuel economy and log life of cars. so day by day manual transmission will disappear from cars . BrentNelson">link title

srs_49

But I will also echo what others are saying: even stuck in slow-moving traffic or driving at low speeds around town, I very much appreciate a car that is fun to drive for how it handles

My thoughts also. Takes me back to my '73 Fiat 128. Thinking back, it was slow as snot (1.2L), but a real blast to drive, even in the city.

srs_49

I hope the cams become a target for vandals, along with the homes of the camera operators and legislators who are in bed with them.

Some of them have, around here. And no, it wasn't me!

New speed camera vandalized

ateixeira

At least MD puts them in school zones.

DC is insane - no such rule exists. They put them where they generate revenue, safety is irrelevant.

victor23

The whole idea and practice of speed enforcement has nothing to do with safety and even with speed:
1. There are more egregious and dangerous violations that are routinely ignored;
2. If safety were at issue, the enforcement would tend to be highly apparent (to the point of sham), not hidden and even provocative;
3. If speed were at issue, it would be mandatorily limited electronically long ago.

andres3

Is first and foremost, that it makes a mockery of justice, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the United States of America.

The second problem is that it doesn't work.

The third problem is that it is usually a losing proposition for tax payers (even the one's that don't get caught).

habitat1

Wrong, questionable and wrong.

I'm not happy when I get a camera ticket any more than you, but I have limited tolerance for those that would go to the extreme of suggesting that the use of red light or speed cameras is anti-Ameican. Come on, I suppose you think using technology to bust child pornograpers is a violation of perverted privacy? Frankly, after losing a business colleague to a head on collision in July caused by a truck driver texting and crossing the center line, I'd be in favor of adding a 12 gauge to the cameras to take out the tires of "distracted" drivers. Or maybe aim a little higher for repeat offenders.

As for "not working" that's an implementation issue. I agree that politics and revenue generation have been the priority in some cases, but that's solvable.

As for a losing proposition for taxpayers? Come on again. I'd rather have police being available to respond to real emergencies than have to patrol every problem intersection and tie up rush hour traffic hand writing a red light ticket.

Again, I don't like getting tickets, period. But I also know it's my responsibility to obey the law and I'm not going to go crying to the ACLU when I don't.

stever

Can cameras tell if you're driving an automatic or a straight shift?

Not really, but let's try to get back on the topic please. We have at least two other "speeding" threads going on around here as it is. Try the Traffic Laws & Enforcement Tactics discussion. Thanks.

andres3

I suppose you think using technology to bust child pornograpers is a violation of perverted privacy?

Depends how the technology is used. Typically, you have an operator for the camera, witnessing the camera's operation when you are doing surveillance. With traffic camera's, the whole process is corrupted, hearsay, and lacks foundation.

You have a right to face your accuser in a court of law. Since the person that installed the camera was not operating the camera, you can't really face your accuser in a court of law with automated camera enforcement.

I'd rather have police being available to respond to real emergencies than have to patrol every problem intersection and tie up rush hour traffic hand writing a red light ticket.

That's fine, but you do realize the camera neither stops the red light runner, nor does it inform him immediately of his violation (to stop him from continuing to do so at other intersections). Also, red light running isn't really a problem as once the camera's are installed, if yellow lights are of proper length, the violations disappear, and the revenue dries up. Studies show lengthening yellow lights works far better than camera enforcement anyway. The NMA has offered $10,000 to any city that can prove otherwise.

Camera enforcement on highways CANNOT be fixed. It has no place in the USA. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. There are big differences between the video tape of a convenience store and that at an intersection.

Getting back on topic, no, a camera cannot determine if the car is a manual or automatic, nor who's driving. Identifying the driver is the prosecutions job; not the car owner's!

Anybody know if stick shifts get more tickets than automatics? (insurance rates might tell the tale if they differ)?

nippononly

for 2013 Kia will no longer offer a manual in the Optima.... :-(

On the plus side the Cadillac ATS will offer a manual with the turbo, but for me that only balances out the fact that they have dropped the manual on the CTS (except for CTS-V).

Mr_Shiftright

The manual trans is much more logical n the compact Caddy. Big sedans with manual transmissions make very little sense in the marketplace.

Where do 3 Pedals belong?

In small, 2-seat sports cars
In thrifty bare bones economy cars
In compact sports coupes and sports sedans
In Jeeps
In 3/4 ton work trucks

ruking1

I actually had and loved the M/T in a Toyota Landcruiser (SUV). It posted app 250,000 miles in 14 years before it sold for -35% of PP.

stever

You forgot SWB minivans. Caravans had them for years, but now the only one standing in the US is the Mazda5.

Mr_Shiftright

I didn't forget them. I was talking about what I personally thought was an appropriate vehicle for a manual transmission, and minivans and SUVs aren't on my list. I suppose an old FJ40 would be okay--that's much more like a Jeep, noisy and rough---good for off road.

stever

I knew that, I just don't agree with you.

Even the "big" Renault Grand Espaces are available with manuals over the pond. But Top Gear doesn't like 'em either.

Mr_Shiftright

Well with Top Gear on my side....I rest my case! :P

nippononly

Or anything other than the most stripped, base trim?

Then you can't buy a
Mazda5
Mazda3 SkyActiv
VW TDI (except the Jetta wagon)

...with a manual. :-(

For me the manual would be a must-have in all of those....but then, fpr me it is a must-have almost no matter what I might be getting!

stickguy

I believe you can now get a manual in a Focus titanium too. top of the line.

nippononly

Yes, and of course the new Focus ST (or is it RS?) will ONLY be available with a stick. :-)

ateixeira

My brother picked up a Forester Premium manual. That has a gigantic moonroof, FWIW.

We also test drove a Kia Sportage (fun, but poor visibility) and a manual Optima, a rare bird. The stick/clutch was better on the Sportage. I didn't like the Optima's manual anyway, so good riddance.

xwesx

My brother picked up a Forester Premium manual. That has a gigantic moonroof, FWIW.

Yep, I have one of those, too. It isn't the best manual transmission, but I wouldn't have bought it without a manual. My new Fiesta, which is also loaded to the gills, has a manual too. That thing is a hoot to drive; it doesn't even seem like the same car as its automatic twin.

I stopped seriously considering the Mazda5 when I found the MT was only on the base (and I mean base) trim. Had Subaru offered an upgraded MT in their Impreza offering for 2012, I would have considered it further. But, it's the same transmission as my Forester, and feels much the same. I couldn't justify spending thousands more, not having the option of the Limited trim, and losing fuel economy just for the AWD. We already have an AWD car; I don't need it on my daily driver.

ateixeira

Yeah, I like to have one AWD in my fleet, so we're covered.

On a snow day you don't usually use more than 1 vehicle.

elias

drove caddy cts-v driving-experience @ monticello track. WHAT A BLAST. I selected the automatic CTS-Vs all day long - could have tried the stickshift - but automatic made for much easier concentration on all the other driving stuff - and two hands on wheel at all the crucial times!

meanwhile, driving on the street/highway is so relatively boring and unengaging, that's a reason I actually prefer the stickshift for the street... leaving automatic for the racetrack!

I gotta go back to that track and do the full day cts-v rental/track-time. fantastic setup they have there , and what a fantastic car the cts-V is.

no matter stickshift vs automatic, it would seem wasteful driving one on the street now that I've experienced what it can do on the track at/near/beyond it's "100%".

ruking1

So what is not to like about 550+ hp/torque ! ? :shades: (except maybe 638 hp/604 # ft on a 3.3 k # chassis) I am not sure I like the look, but that is strictly a personal preference or lack there of.

While I have grown to like the 6 speed manual Tremec; with either, I think one would have to spend some brain cells on being more careful than the A/T: and both for equipment sake and for which part/s of the EDGE/s one happens to be on.

bpizzuti

So what is not to like about 550+ hp/torque ! ?

5.5 MPG highway. :shades:

ateixeira

Owners do complain about range.

Of course driving style surely has some effect...

stever

My father-in-law was reminiscing with his childhood best friend (both late '80) the other day and talking about someone fixing up the former lumberyard manager's house. The subject got around to the 1930-something Packard the manager drove - he was famous for never shifting it out of second gear. The idea was that never shifting ensured the longevity of the car. Then they remembered a local doc who did the same thing with his car. Could hear him all over town winding his car out.

volkov

Sort of a continuous "Italian tune-up".