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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

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  • Is it just me, or does anyone else scratch their head over the striking similarities of the Ferrari 599 and the C6 Corvette? I know that they are not totally identical, but they seem very close.
    Reminds me of the Ferrari Daytona that tons of people mistake for a '68-'69ish Corvette. Not to mention the Ferrari is using Corvettes Magnetic Ride Control technology to make it handle like a...Ferrari?
    Do you think that Ferrari is getting ready to throw something at the Corvette LeMans team in the next few years. Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
    I also find it funny that the Corvette has very Ferrari looking headlights (like the F430) and the Ferrari 599 has more plain looking headlights that could have come from a Corvette or something similar. Man, the globalization is making things wierd.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    Back in the day lots of people sneered at the 365GTB/4, referring to it as the "Italian Corvette".

    The Daytona with it's clean lines and sharp edges was a real departure from the classic PF Ferrari look but it's stood up over time a lot better than the '68 Corvette.

    The 599 is a sharp departure too with it's narrow headlights and wraparound rear glass but I like it in a way I could never like the plainly derivative C6.

    Corvette needs a new styling Mojo to go with the fabulous performance IMO.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • xkssxkss Posts: 722
    Pedro Lamy won the GT1 class of the American Le Mans Series race at Lime Rock Park by 0.033 seconds in his # 009 DBR9 over Johnny O'Connell in his # 3 Corvette C6-R.

    The Corvette C6-Rs were carrying 199 more pounds than the Aston Martins, running smaller intake restrictors, and using smaller fuel tanks as a result of "balance of performance" adjustments mandated by the sanctioning body.

    GT1 report
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/08/30/cr_supercars/

    Sports Car comparison, FWIW. Not sure I'd expect the 505hp
    Z06 to be only say 1 or 2 tenths faster 0 -60 than a 355hp
    911.
    Randy
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I read CR, don't get me wrong, but relying on them to evaluate supercars would be like Good Housekeeping ranking Heavy Metal bands.

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,179
    Well... one thing you get from them is the unvarnished truth... They aren't swayed by price tags or hood ornaments or "heritage"..

    So, if the $80K car drives like crap and is all image, at least they'll tell you about it, and not try to gloss it over... That is more than can be said for the enthusiast car magazines..

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    True, but things like a racing heritage will matter to the enthusiasts that buy them.

    Not to mention, I doubt that same buyer will care much about cup holder placement. ;)

    -juice
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,179
    Enthusiasts probably make up a very small percentage of buyers of any make.. even Porsche..

    Cupholders: My wife can't be away from a bottle of water for more than 20 minutes without having a major hissy fit... Even enthusiasts get thirsty.. :)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The cup holder on my Miata broke, and I never replaced it. My wife complains, though.

    -juice
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    Ah ... "one thing you get from them is the unvarnished truth... "
    All depends on how you arrive at truth. The 0-60 I remember for the Z06 is 3.7 sec's while on Edmunds I find the base 911 at 4.5 approx. They came up with 4.3 vs. 4.4 for the two cars, 6/10th's slower for the Chevy and 1/10th
    faster for the Porsche. Ignoring HP the torque comparison is 470 vs. 295, and that would seem to be hard pressed to explain with the term truth. Might even be lack of skill but after three times at the track with my C5 coupe I was able to hit the factory 13.3 in the quarter and I'm not really too good. Maybe cupholders is the real issue ...
    Randy
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Why would a person need a cup holder for a water bottle? Just curious. I had a Miata and just wedged the bottle between seat and console area.
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    I'm with you still in the C5 since the depth of the one supposed cup holder is too shallow to be much use. Then again they don't let us take bottles on track so I don't get much use for it anyway. I'm sure the Miata is more fun on track too.
    Family weekend followed by another 3 days at Buttonwillow for the end of the month. Out of about 110 cars entered per day there should be about 10% Vettes which is higher than average from experience. Should be a challenge since we run the track in a different configuration each day with the first CW and then two days CCW. Saturday will be the fast config with my times down below 2:10's on street tires for the 3mi course.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    the "definitive discussion" of sports cars and we're talking about cupholders? :sick: :sick:

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • We just bought a 95 Mazda MX-6 LS for our son, it had a cold air intake installed on it. In order to get the car to pass inspection we had to remove it and install the orginal breather back on it. No she skips and cuts out like crazy when in gear and pullin down the road, it starts at about 1500 rmps. If it is in park you can rip it up to 5000rpms and she's smooth as can be. Anyone know what could be the problem? Any help would be greatly appreicated!! THANKS!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I would disassemble and reassemble the whole thing again, slowly. Odds are you missed a vacuum tube or an electical connection.

    I saw a case where a friend worked on an intake for a Subaru and forgot one vacuum tube. It threw error codes and wouldn't even start!

    -juice
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    Stuff like this is hit and miss without data. However, if
    the ECU was reprogrammed or the car tuned with removed cold
    air intake it might be starved for air. Again, it's a guess
    without data.
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    So, got to spend another day at Laguna Seca last Monday with
    a group of other sports cars and what not. Since I had not
    signed up ahead of time I was hanging in the trailer waiting
    for sign in and heard the following:
    Aaron 'Do you need to run in separate groups?'
    Dad 'No, we both have cars.'
    Aaron 'Did you drive them up?'
    Son 'No, they are being delivered.'
    Check is written and I get to pay as well and get my wrist
    band. As I go back to my parking spot, where there are now
    6 Corvettes in a row, there is a semi hauler parked behind
    us. Full graphics with picture announcing: "Ferrari of
    Newport Beach" and the tail is open and what I think was
    the first of two Stradale (?) Challenge Ferrari's is being
    lowered on the lift platform. Wouldn't want to drive down
    ramps I guess. They had a driver in addition to the tech
    for the cars who was talking with the guy who trailered in
    his personal Ferrari track car who was coaching for Dad &
    Son. Ah, the simple life.

    As for the track, sunny morning and got within a few tenths
    of my PB for Laguna. Helped a few folks with the line, one
    who I passed in the first session but after I suggested a
    couple things was doing 2 sec's a lap faster than me by the
    third session. Beautiful winter day on track, gotta love
    CA between storms. I think there were 9 Vettes there out of
    about 80 cars total running in three groups.
    Randy
  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    Nice to hear from you, Randy. I could have sworn that was going to end with you passing Ferraris. ;-)
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    But now that I'm running in upper Intermediate or Advanced
    groups, I get passed much more than the reverse. The Cayman
    has become the bane of my track days as I hardly ever come
    across one that isn't really fast. I never went to look at
    LS last week for what tires one was running, but a black
    one blew by me after closing fast through the corkscrew.
    My street tire setup with a 3450# loaded platform will only
    go so fast around corners and where I seem to lose out more
    is with only 350HP on the straights. Amazing how many cars
    can pull me up the hill to turn 1 at LS. Oh well.

    The two Ferrari's were beautiful to see and as most know
    hearing all three going down the front straight fully wound
    out was glorious. Then again there was an old orange
    Pantera that had a Cleveland 351, I think, that I really
    prefer for sound, no accounting for taste.
    Randy

    Off to Thunderhill soon, I hope ...
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    I have become interested in this brand and am considering for my next car but have some questions that I hope can be answered. It appears that dollar for dollar as in tech features, power, creature comfort etc, the P cars are significantly more expensive than the new 3 series and others for example. Is the premium price in the fact that it's a smaller company and thus the cost per vehicle is higher (no economy of scale), the prestige factor and marketing strategy,better quality and more hand workmanship or is the money in non-visible performance areas like suspension, steering etc.?
    Thank you for any input as this is something that I'd like to become educated in before my purchase (cayman S?)
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    I wasn't sure if this posted correctly.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    I'm not sure if I understand your question. The new 3-Series is a wonderful car by all accounts but it is a Sport Sedan and nowhere near the pur sang sports car a Cayman is, you are comparing apples to oranges.

    Porsche generates the highest profit per car of any company in the industry. I'm not sure that would be true if Ferrari, Aston-Martin, Lamborghini etc. weren't owned by other larger companies.

    In any case high performance sports cars are very high priced, high profit items and only you can decide whether the additional performance and prestige are worth the premium prices they command.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Hum. Well, based on pure numbers, you are not going to be able to justify the price premium for the porsche, especially when you take service and depreciation into account. A 335i is comparable to a cayman S in some performance metrics, is way cheaper to buy/own and can hold 4-5 people and luggage..

    But a porsche is in general just a riot to drive. It's fun, it's way overbuilt, and it's "special." You're paying for that extra 1/10th. Is it worth it? You can always ask that for any car, depends on your money and priorities.
  • topspin628topspin628 Posts: 373
    Exactly. And I take it that you are an owner? If so, I'd love to hear from you what that extra 1/10th is that you love so much. By the way, I think it's true for all cars that as you spend more you get less "tangible" value but and it's a big but, you get more emotional value and for those of us who love cars and driving, that's more than worth it. For example, having owned many premium cars, I can easily communicate what it is that has made them special to me.
    So tell me about the Porsche experience and smile factor. (It's one of the few brands I've yet to try)
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Actually, no, i have a BMW. I'm not at the point right now where buying that extra 1/10 makes sense for me. Where i live the car would get banged up, and i have investment goals to hit...

    But as for your quesion, to me, a porsche feels like a bmw kicked up a notch or two. It's like comparing a bmw to a lexus--the lexus may have the same numbers, but you have more fun in the bmw; the car is more live, you feel more wired into the steering, throttle, brakes, and you can hit the turn a bit faster, etc.

    And yes, i agree there's definitely diminishing returns in cars, as with practically everything else.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Porsche has the pedigree to command those prices. A history of racing and leadership in automotive engineering.

    That's just a start, the cars have to be great else the rep would only carry them for a year or two.

    My buddy has a Boxster and it was a hoot. It had the best automatic transmission I've sampled in my life, by far. They went the extra mile to engineer that trans to basically read the driver's mind.

    So, to the people that can afford it, it's worth every penny, yes.

    Now, speaking from a practical stand point, you tend to see diminishing returns as you spend more to get more.

    A $20k car tends to be much better than a $15k car. Step up from $20 to $25k and you get smaller improvements. To $30k and again, smaller gains.

    So it's hard for a practical person (myself included) to understand why pay $50 grand for a Boxster when a $25k Miata is plenty fun enough.

    -juice
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 16,643
    BMW has the highest margins of any of the big sedan makers.
    There are lots of people who think the high prices of 3-series sedans are not justified by any concrete advantage over competitors from Lexus, Inifinti, Acura and Audi to name a few.

    Let me hasten to say as a BMW owner, I am not one of them. ;)

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    Porsche has the pedigree to command those prices. A history of racing and leadership in automotive engineering.
    That's just a start, the cars have to be great else the rep would only carry them for a year or two.
    My buddy has a Boxster and it was a hoot. It had the best automatic transmission I've sampled in my life, by far. They went the extra mile to engineer that trans to basically read the driver's mind.


    Porsche has what pedigree to command what prices? Last time I checked, the car below had a 4-cylinder that was also used in the AMC Gremlin, an engine that generated a whole 110 hp-, a 0-60 sprint of 10 seconds and retailed for an astonishing $10,000--the same price as the 205 hp, 250 ft/lbs, V8 Chevrolet Corvette!

    image

    I owned the 924. I bought it for about $1,500, the same used car price as a Honda Prelude although I went with the Porsche since it had the better displays.
    Still, $10K new for that? The same price got this in 1984:

    image

    Porsche is pulling the same gimmicks, even now. A Porsche Boxster, which competes in the same class as the Miata MX-5's, Pontiac Solstice GXP's and Honda S2000's, commands nearly $50,000!!!

    And Porsceh consistently loses in endurance races such as 24-hours at LeMans!

    Where's the "pedigree" to which you refer?
    ...boxster with automatic transmission is a "hoot." lol...
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    If Porsche can command that money, why not?

    I've driven Porsches on-track as a track instructor and they are far and beyond most other cars out on the road, stock to stock in terms of sports car ability.

    -mike
This discussion has been closed.