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Sports Cars - The Definitive Discussion

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Comments

  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    The making of this conversation about each other needs to stop.

    The discussion is about Sports Cars. It is about all the cars listed at the top. It is okay that someone comes here to talk about any of those listed cars.

    It is not okay to make the conversation about other posters.

    Again, if you don't like what someone else is saying, just skip the post. There is this handy-dandy secret "ignore" feature we have here in CarSpace known as the "scroll wheel" - if you are tempted to attack the person who posted the message you just read, just scroll on by.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    OK, there's an impression that--while the Vette is superior to the GT3--it falls short in the 'dash-stroking' category. Usually reviewers from foreign, German automotive magazine publications. I don't know where they get their crazy ideas!:

    $120,000 Porsche GT3. Notice the vertical "grand canyon" panel gaps in and around the glovebox, and general cheapness all around:

    image

    Here's the $75,000 LeMans and ALMS-winning sportscar to which all other sportscars in the world are judged:

    image

    No grand canyons here, folks! No junky interior panels. Just pure business.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    We are done buying into your insults. I really wish you the best. I hope you enjoy your car to the max. Good night. Oh, by the way, in the Corvette ..why is the parking brake handle on the passengers side...doesn't seem logical? It seems like you'd have to reach over the center counsel to reach it. Just wondering...Junky? What...

    Chromedome
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Here's the $75,000 LeMans and ALMS-winning sportscar to which all other sportscars in the world are judged:

    No Offense but no race car has an interior anything like either of those two above pictures. Anyone who actually goes out and races or has built a racecar knows that there is very little that is kept true to a street machine once it's been converted over for race duty.

    I don't see any fire suppression on either car.
    I don't see any roll cages on either car.
    Heck I don't even see seats that would be legal in even the lowest level of club racing!
    They both have airbags, which are absolutely not allowed in racing.

    :)

    So let's calm down with the "Racing" comments since we are talking about street cars here. :)

    -mike
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    Without beating the dead horse too many times! Please do a little research and review the massive number on wins that Porsche has posted in the last 58 years, in all categories. Porsche has been on the forefront of bringing racing technology to their " street " machines since 1948. I remember Tiger Woods being slammed about his " B game " comment. He is an asonishing golf prodigy!.... but he has not beat Jack Nicklas' record of major wins yet.A simple broken finger could ruin his career. One win does not a legend make. Rather than using a picture to make a judgement of the interior quality of the 997 and 997S , because this is what we are talking about here..street machines ( the 997S being the most popular in the line )go down to your local Porsche dealer and take a look, preferably at one that offers a full leather interior. You will see the world class fit/ finish /material and build quality. I've seen the Corvette...More than one car mag writer has positioned the 997 as the worlds premier sports car, regardless of those who make unjustified and biased comments . Elevation to world class stature takes more than a critique of your opponent, to be a true winner you have to have class. More " Evolution than Revolution" is what embodies Porsche The Corvette and the Porsche 997 are 2 vastly different cars, from the Porsche being a true 2+2, to it's unibody contruction , European design and engineering to it's heritage and history. With the car world in general recognizing the position the Porsche holds ..how can you be so critical? It just doesn't make sense.

    Chromedome
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Sir:

    PS I'm getting tired, yawn ( also of this ) so don't listen to my diatribe. Go to Edmunds : Full Test: 2007 Porsche 911 S... Mr. Huffman dosen't seem to find any glaring issues with the 997, his comments are on the contrary,you have to trust someone. I'm figuring it's his business so who do you believe? I'm done.

    Chromedome
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    The brand new Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid gets 2 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Malibu and adds ZERO horsepower.
    The Toyota Camry Hybrid gets 12 extra MPG (city) over the standard 4 cylinder Camry and adds 29 horsepower.


    The Corvette gets 16/25.
    The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city. The Chevy Tahoe weighs over 5,000 lbs, can tow over 6,000 pounds, generates almost 400 horsepower with over 400 ft/lbs of torque and can seat over eight people. An astonishing engineering feat that makes the engineering in the putt-putt Camry hybrid look like the first-generation hybrid technology it is.
    I say again: Toyota's technological leadership in hybrid technology is first-generation and will be for the forseeable future; GM's technological hybrid leadership is newer, better, more powerful and much cleaner.
    The Corvette is the sportscar leader and always will be.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    No Offense but no race car has an interior anything like either of those two above pictures. Anyone who actually goes out and races or has built a racecar knows that there is very little that is kept true to a street machine once it's been converted over for race duty.
    I don't see any fire suppression on either car.
    I don't see any roll cages on either car.
    Heck I don't even see seats that would be legal in even the lowest level of club racing!
    They both have airbags, which are absolutely not allowed in racing.


    The picture of the Z06 car I showed is the commercial version of the car Chevrolet races in their endurance events. So when I said "Here's the [LeMans and ALMS winning] $75,000 sportscar..." I was not out of line (the Z06 is a $75,000 sportscar, and races at LeMans and ALMS, albeit with interior and suspensions strictly intended for the professional racing circuit). My main aim in posting these two pictures was to show that Corvettes are sadly underrated in their interior execution, and that Porsche models are grotesquely overrated in this regard, and I illustrated this unfortunate fact visually.

    Also, Edmunds just banned my picture-posting privelidge on this forum. it's a little disturbing to read a post from chromedome where he approximately stated, "Edmunds said the interior of the 911 is without peer, reaches Lexus-like levels of craftsmanship and Edmunds also said the Corvette interior is flimsy and plasticky" then when I try to post pictures showing that the 911 might not be as good as they say and that the Corvette may be better than they say, Edmunds censors my picture-posting privelidges on this forum. I wonder why?
    Paisan, do you have an explination? I'd confront this with a private message, but this forum doesn't have P/M's.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    chrmdome, I tried to find links to support this post of yoours by Googling, "porsche lemans alms wins podium finishes" and the only thing I found was that Porsche had a podium finish back in 1998 at LeMans in the LMP-class. Can you please support your posts with links that prove Porsche's successes in professional motorsports? I have been unsucessful in doing so myself.

    What's funny is that Googling, "porsche lemans alms wins podium finishes" brought up like five links relating to Chevrolet's dominance in these endurance events.

    link title
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    More " Evolution than Revolution" is what embodies Porsche The Corvette and the Porsche 997 are 2 vastly different cars, from the Porsche being a true 2+2, to it's unibody contruction , European design and engineering to it's heritage and history. With the car world in general recognizing the position the Porsche holds ..how can you be so critical? It just doesn't make sense.

    OK, good question (your last question).
    I think the reason I'm (or Vette fanboys in general) are being so critical of Porsche is because we're winning race after race and comparison tests after comparison tests, but some sources (especially foreign ones like CAR magazine and Germany's Auto Bild magazine) seem to conveniently ignore this glaring fact. Why is it that the foreign automotive press is so reluctant to acknowledge Corvette's superiority as a car and as a racing entity?
    Why do they heap on vague, abstract praise like, "The Porsche is European engineering and elegance. From the soft corinthian leather to the large tachonometer that was inspired by their racing victories, this automaker screams craftsmanship. The engine is the aural equivalent of the london Philharmonic symphony orchestra doing a Tsaichovsky composition, and the shifter feels as if it's linkage is coated with sheets of silk..."
    This "praise" trickles down to the domestic automotive journalist, but fortunately most journalists on this side of the continent still have enough professionalism to render the Corvette the #1 car and the Porsche (or any other automaker for that matter) the #2 car. But still, some of the fluff from Europe still occasionaly makes it to your local Car and Driver magazine from time to time.

    That's why we critisize. Tell it like it is, journalists!!!
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city."

    Apples to oranges. The Tahoe is a truck that uses engine/fuel management devices that are not acceptable in a mass-market family sedan. You claimed that GM has superior hybrid technology, then why didn't they use it in the Malibu? I proved you woefully wrong with a comparison between the current/comparable midsize family sedans from each company.

    And for the record, the automatic Corvette gets 15 MPG. The manual is rated at 16 MPG in the city, but only with the help of the "skip-shift" feature that forces the driver to go from 1st to 4th gear until normal acceleration. The new Lexus LS-F (with a 412 HP V-8) is also EPA rated at 16 MPG city even though it weighs 600 lbs more than the Vette (it's a heavy, luxury/performance sedan).

    Which brings up another point - if the Corvette is such a world beater, how come the C6 engine needs 6.2 litres to produce a relatively dismal 430 hp (69 hp/litre)? The Mercedes CLK63 makes 500 hp with the same displacement. Toyota stomps Chevrolet with the new Lexus LS-F. It's V-8 makes 412 hp with only 5.0 litres (83 hp/litre). And don't forget BMW. The new V-8 M3 makes an astounding 414 hp with only 4.0 litres (103.5 hp/litre)!

    Like I've said before. The Corvette is a fantastic sports car and an amazing performance bargain, but there's a reason why it only costs $45,000. You get what you pay for.

    Drive a 10 year-old/100,000 mile Corvette back-to-back with a similarly used Porsche/BMW/Toyota and you'll immediately see why you saved so much money.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "I think the reason I'm (or Vette fanboys in general) are being so critical of Porsche is because we're winning race after race and comparison tests after comparison tests."

    The problem with this logic is that the characteristics that make a great race car or generate great test numbers are not necessarily what make a great street car. A race car has it's cockpit ripped out and suspension beefed up. All that matters is how fast will it lap a certain course - Who cares if it rattles? Who cares if it's compliant over rough roads? Who cares how noisy it is? Who cares if it falls apart at the end of the season?

    A street car, on the other hand, must be refined, comfortable, quiet, reliable, and enjoyable to drive and own in a variety of environments. This is where a high-priced European sports car trumps the Corvette. Controls are silky smooth and don't fall off in your hand. Seats are well padded, supportive, and comfortable for long distances with high quality surfaces that won't wear and seams that won't split. Steering and driveline and refined and responsive, and transmit road information without being too harsh or too numb.

    The C6 Corvette is surprisingly competent in these areas, but a Porsche or BMW is simply sublime (I know it's cliche to say it this way). There's simply no other way to put it and until you experience the difference, you'll never understand.
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    Also, Edmunds just banned my picture-posting privelidge on this forum. it's a little disturbing to read a post from chromedome where he approximately stated, "Edmunds said the interior of the 911 is without peer, reaches Lexus-like levels of craftsmanship and Edmunds also said the Corvette interior is flimsy and plasticky" then when I try to post pictures showing that the 911 might not be as good as they say and that the Corvette may be better than they say, Edmunds censors my picture-posting privelidges on this forum. I wonder why?
    Paisan, do you have an explination? I'd confront this with a private message, but this forum doesn't have P/M's.


    No idea, I'm only a host in the Tuning/Modifications Area and the Motorsports Area. My guess would be that they may have limited your picture posting abilities due to possibly copyrighted material? Best bet would be to drop an e-mail to the helpdesk or one fo the hosts in the area where they were deleted.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Posts: 21,181
    The problem with this logic is that the characteristics that make a great race car or generate great test numbers are not necessarily what make a great street car. A race car has it's cockpit ripped out and suspension beefed up. All that matters is how fast will it lap a certain course - Who cares if it rattles? Who cares if it's compliant over rough roads? Who cares how noisy it is? Who cares if it falls apart at the end of the season?

    Yes my point exactly! I'm glad someone understands the point I was making :)

    -mike
  • starrow68starrow68 Posts: 1,142
    Interesting perspective. Who cares if my daily driver has disc brakes? I do, and
    they came from Zora pushing a racing agenda against his brass who didn't care or
    understand and improving the performance of the Corvette. Even Edmunds has
    written up the Chevy small block and how far GM has extended the design to get
    performance levels that apply to street cars. The point of racing, even for P-cars, is
    to get what is more efficient and apply it to the street fleet to beat the competition
    where it matters, selling cars. Does anyone seriously think we would have the
    performance cars on the street today without racing?

    As for Corvette wins at LeMans vs. Porsche, at least in the past few years, the cars
    run in different classes. The GT2 class is a glorified street car, i.e. the GT3 P-car.
    The GT1 or GTS class is a purpose built race car, tube frame and has as much
    relation to the street version as a NASCAR Ford or Toyota does. BTW, the exotic
    materials, if you want to call an aluminum frame exotic, but the mag. engine cradle
    sure seems like it is, are what has so far kept the C6 Z06 out of SCCA racing.
    They don't know how to certify the safety of something they have no experience
    with.

    c...dome, be the first on your block to see what your car is really capable of ...
    And maybe your limitations aren't as large as they look ... ;)
    Randy
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    Not saying the Corvette isn't high tech - and I agree that racing improves the breed of street cars through trickle-down technology. It's a credit to GM that the Corvette weighs as little as it does and performs so well.

    But the fact remains that, although the C6 is a huge improvement over previous generations and is no longer the "one trick pony" it once was, it still does not possess the chassis refinement, suspension compliance, nimbleness, steering feel, build quality - overall BALANCE of a Porsche.
  • chrmdomechrmdome Posts: 107
    Greetings:

    My main point, althought my point might be buried amongst the dialog being beaten back and forth like a red-headed stepchild is this. Statistics... ya those can't be used in any way to make a point one way or another.!!! duh... come on! Whether or not your Corvette does a 0-60 in 0.12567 faster than my 997S , I find no enjoyment in battering the build quality, interior, paint job or any other aspect of Corvette. I enjoy my Porsche totally. If we deny the heritage and history that Porsche holds among the builders of world class automobiles, Ferrari, BMW MB etc, we are just showing our ignorance. As out host has mentioned ( twice ? ) this is about street cars...sure racing improves the quality of our products ( one of my main points with Porsche ), but we are talking street cars here. Softer ride quality with a sporting touch (PSM, PSAM ) is what we look for, on the street I'm 57 years old and don't enjoy being bounced around like a bean in a 55 gallon drum. Does this make my 997S less worthy.? Here in California you will promptly be arrested for even 1 mph over 100mph. I don't need that grief in my life. So whats my point???? Go look at the 997S Porsche at the dealership. You will in most cases be treated with respect , given all the information you seek in a professional manner and most everyone will be totally impressed with the world class cars they see. The 997S is a daily driver... every car mag I've read about the 997S in review touts the car as simply world class, expensive but world class... so what do you know unless you drive it every day. How can you (Guys ) critique something with such distain using only your statistics about racing .. your not driving a Porsche everyday ...how do you know anything about the steering, shifting etc.. I've find no argument about what Chevy has done with the Corvette. How can anyone deny the place that Porsche holds ??

    Chromedome
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    Replying to: pmc4 (Dec 07, 2007 8:52 pm)
    "The V6 Camry gets 19 MPG city, whereas the Chevy Tahoe hybrid gets 21 MPG city."
    Apples to oranges. The Tahoe is a truck that uses engine/fuel management devices that are not acceptable in a mass-market family sedan. You claimed that GM has superior hybrid technology, then why didn't they use it in the Malibu? I proved you woefully wrong with a comparison between the current/comparable midsize family sedans from each company.
    And for the record, the automatic Corvette gets 15 MPG. The manual is rated at 16 MPG in the city, but only with the help of the "skip-shift" feature that forces the driver to go from 1st to 4th gear until normal acceleration. The new Lexus LS-F (with a 412 HP V-8) is also EPA rated at 16 MPG city even though it weighs 600 lbs more than the Vette (it's a heavy, luxury/performance sedan).

    Which brings up another point - if the Corvette is such a world beater, how come the C6 engine needs 6.2 litres to produce a relatively dismal 430 hp (69 hp/litre)? The Mercedes CLK63 makes 500 hp with the same displacement. Toyota stomps Chevrolet with the new Lexus LS-F. It's V-8 makes 412 hp with only 5.0 litres (83 hp/litre). And don't forget BMW. The new V-8 M3 makes an astounding 414 hp with only 4.0 litres (103.5 hp/litre)!
    Like I've said before. The Corvette is a fantastic sports car and an amazing performance bargain, but there's a reason why it only costs $45,000. You get what you pay for.
    Drive a 10 year-old/100,000 mile Corvette back-to-back with a similarly used Porsche/BMW/Toyota and you'll immediately see why you saved so much money.


    I've been waiting for a post like this ever since Mercedes brought their big-bore M156 engine to market (the 6.3L DOHC V8 M156 engine is Mercedes Benz's attempt at dethroning Chevrolet's exemplary LS3 V8 and powers an S-Class AMG coupe)!!!

    Truth be told, folks, even with Mercedes Benz's multi-million dollar development effort at bringing to market large-displacement, complex engines, the DOHC concept still falls short of the goal.

    Even with 32 valves, four camshafts, tons of doo-dads for variable valve camshaft timing and phasing and variable intake geometry, the very best Benz can do is 503 horsepower with a so-so 456 ft/lbs of torque! The LS7--an engine that has it's roots in a post WWII Cadillac V8 pushrod engine--generates 505 horsepower and 470 ft/lbs of torque.

    Lemme get this straight. A pushrod engine generates more power and horsepower than a variable-valve V8 DOHC engine that has 32 valves, variable cam phasing at both the intake AND exhaust, costs almost $40,000 by itself, and has had nearly a billion research euro's thrown at it?

    How can that be? I mean, for years, the 'sport-compact tuner' crowd has been saying, "The DOHC engine is just more refined and advanced than the LSx engines from Chevy. Sure, the Chevy engine makes more power, but it does it through brute force, not engineering. The only thing Chevy does is make a big-bore engine and throw pushrods at it, so there's no wonder it makes more power: through displacement and not through technology, like the DOHC engines.
    "If a company like Mercedes Benz (or Honda) were to bring a big-displacement DOHC engine to market, Chevy's pushrod V8 would be history! I mean, just think about it. DOHC advancements with large displacement? Now that would be one powerful engine!"

    But your 'moment of glory' never came. Mercedes did exactly that--created a large-displacement DOHC V8-- and it still falls short of the Almighty Pushrod's glory!
    It's still weaker, has less horsepower, costs far more to manufacture and most important of all, has a very irregular powerband.
    And let us remember, we must compare base engine to base engine; premium engine to premium engine. THe base engine is Benz's S550 V8. Their premium engine is the AMG M156 engine. Thus, we must compare the LS7 (not the LS3) to the M156, since they're both premium engines. We should compare the base LS3 to the S550 Benz mill, since they're both base mills and not premium engines.

    For all these years, us enthusiasts have been saying that a large displacement DOHC V8 would still fall behind Chevy's tuned Pushrod V8. For years, you guys have been saying we were wrong. Mercedes Benz brings your engine to market and it's still not as good as Chevy's LS7.
    FOR YEARS YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN FOOLED!!!

    This Edmunds website shows the characteristic output curve (dynograph) of the big-bore Mercedes Benz V8 DOHC engine. Notice that the engine doesn't even start making 90% of its peak power until 3,500 RPM, and, being the very narrow powerband it is, falls below 90% at 5,500 RPM or so.

    This dynograph is for the Chevrolet LS7, the world's most powerful normally-asperated V8 engine.
    Notice the nearly flat and wide powerband, where 90% or greater power is generated even well past 6,300 RPM. You will not find a broader powerband anywhere, except on the racing circuit.
    This is what tuning does to an engine. Honda and Mercedes Benz strategy is to add as many expensive doo-dads on an engine to try and boost power and flatten the torque curve; Chevrolet's strategy is to refine and tune the LSx engine to the point of perfection in order to get that ultra-wide powerband. Titanium con-rods, forged aluminum pistons and sodium-filled intake valve can't hurt, of course...

    image

    Chevy ^^^
    Mercedes Benz:

    image
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    Not saying the Corvette isn't high tech - and I agree that racing improves the breed of street cars through trickle-down technology. It's a credit to GM that the Corvette weighs as little as it does and performs so well.
    But the fact remains that, although the C6 is a huge improvement over previous generations and is no longer the "one trick pony" it once was, it still does not possess the chassis refinement, suspension compliance, nimbleness, steering feel, build quality - overall BALANCE of a Porsche.


    Most of you guys are being incorrect in this department. The very reason why I posted the pic of the Vette and of the GT3 was to show that the Vette is underrated and the Porsche is overrated in the 'dash-stroker' category. Critics are too afraid to admit that the BMW or the Porsche has a sub-standard interior, especially where price is concerned. I proved this by showing photographs of both interiors.

    If you really want to see a very graphic illustration of this corrupt phonomena, just (and I implore you guys to do so) pick up the latest issue of Car and Driver magazine when you're at the store.
    In it, Car and Driver compares the BMW 328i, Infiniti G35, Cadillac CTS and Mercedes Benz.
    BMW wins the Comparison test.
    Go to where Car and Driver heaps on praise regarding the "refinement, quality and execution" of the BMW's interior.
    Then look at all three photographs--the photographs of the BMW, Infiniti and Cadillac interiors, side-by side.

    What you are about to see will bring a tear to your eye.

    Standing next to the Infiniti and especially the Cadillac, the BMW is far cheaper-looking, horribly executed, contrasting shapes, irregular colors and overall cheapness compared to the Infiniti and Caddy.
    The BMW's tacked-on speaker grille tops it all off.

    Then go to where they test the Lexus LS-F a few pages later, where they say, "With the merits of this Lexus, you guys will think we might consider getting off of BMW's bankroll..." It's clear from this review and the other review that Car and Driver is indeed being somehow paid by BMW.

    If you look at the three tested cars, you'll believe it, too.
  • pmc4pmc4 Posts: 198
    People are hilarious!
    People can be told that the interior of a Porsche or BMW is high-quality and that the Corvette is low quality.
    Then when they sit in both cars, they see that the opposite is true: That the Corvette is richer-looking than the Porsche.

    Then they walk away saying that the Porsche is richer-looking, because that's what they were told to believe. A remarkeable psychological phonomena indeed!
This discussion has been closed.