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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "As I've tracked my cars, I want the vehicle to have the range to pull in 2nd/3rd/4th. I never see first or 5th/6th on a track or when I'm playing (like in the moutains east of san diego). I don't give a damn how quickly the car pulls from 60 in top gear - I would never do that anyway...I buy manuals to shift."

    I haven't driven a MS6 (and neither, of course, a MS3) and I currently drive a low-torque, high rpm 6-speed with ummm, well odd gear ratios (Celica GTS) so take the following with a grain of salt:

    First, it strikes me as a bit odd that Mazda would resort to CUTTING the torque output in the first couple of gears due to concern about torque steer, rather than just making those gears a bit taller (or making the FD ratio a bit taller). After all, gears are just torque multipliers (the shorter the gear, the more torque multiplication) so it doesn't make a lot of sense to have short gears and then cut the torque through electronic chicanery.

    Second, I'll agree that I'd rather have 5th and 6th somewhat taller for highway cruising. After all, the turbo MZR is supposed to be a torque monster so one shouldn't really NEED to be turning high rpm at highway speed to have decent pull. And I agree; manuals are for SHIFTING. Generally speaking, I'll know a bit ahead of time when I'll want more giddyup and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that 4th will get you a lot more grunt than 6th.

    Finally, personally I think you may be going a tad overboard by labeling the MS6 essentially 'undriveable' simply due to short gears. Even if 2nd gear WAS good for 62 mph, it's not like you'd be shifting AT REDLINE ON EVERY 0-60 run. Heck, 9 times out of 10 I'm shifting up to top gear by the time I hit 60 in my Celica (skipping 3rd and often 5th along the way). The ONLY time that extra shift to hit 60 has ANY relavence whatsoever is in some kind of street race or track event; and then what POSSIBLE difference does it make if you are shifting at 58 instead of 62? You might as well be pissing and moaning about an extra shift into 4th for the quarter-mile run.....
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I guess we are all entitled to our own opinion.

    The lousy FWD-biased AWD system and the severe understeer through the numb steering made driving anything but pleasurable.

    That's funny, because this car handles WAY better then the Audi A4 Quattro, and Subaru Legacy GT Spec B. The latter two are considered to have the best AWD systems out there, and yet, they do not handle nearly as well as the MS6 does. Yes, Haldex AWD is not as advanced as Symmetrical or Quattro, but, it is far from lousy. I really wonder how you came to your conclusions. The V6 Mazda6 does not hold a candle to the MS6. I guess our opinions or expectations on vehicles are in vast contrast. But, thats OK.

    Also, in your previous post, you mentioned that the "MS6 was back in the running..." Why would you consider this car if you hated it so much?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I really wonder how you came to your conclusions. The V6 Mazda6 does not hold a candle to the MS6. I guess our opinions or expectations on vehicles are in vast contrast. But, thats OK.

    After driving the MS6 I came away wholly unimpressed with everything but the keyless-go and better interior. The MS6 felt so disconnected from the Mazda line. I found more pleasure in the Miata (NA, NB, NC), Protege, Mazda6 S and Pro ES. Perhaps I had a really off car? Doubtful. The 3800 lb weight matched to the FWD system pretty much guaranteed the MS6 wouldn't be fun to drive.

    Also, in your previous post, you mentioned that the "MS6 was back in the running..." Why would you consider this car if you hated it so much?

    Typo. Meant MS3.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    ...you might want to avert your eyes if you see the latest issue of Sport Compact Car, which has a rather indepth look at the new Speed3 (nearly 10 pages worth).

    It says, in part:

    "For the last year, the sub $23K price range has been the domain of the GTI and Civic Si. But you simply can't compare those two to the Mazdaspeed3; it is really that good"

    :)
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I read that review. To say they loved the car is a gross understatement. I am meeting with a Mazda dealer to put down a deposit this coming week.
  • I read the Mazdaspeed 3 will do 0-60 in "about 6 seconds". This is only .5 seconds faster than an SI or a GTI. Plus it is a hatchback. Does not do anything for me. I'm glad I got the fun, reliable, quick, and great handling SI for about $3,000 less (or more, who knows).
  • "Lack of real Power". I don't know where you get that impression from. I sure didn't. It has as much as the GTI or many other "performance cars". Motor Trend preferred it over the GTI as did Edmunds as a matter of fact. Reviews give it anywhere from 6.5 to 6.9 seconds in the 0-60. Plus it out handles the GTI by a long stretch in both reviews. So I would say your opinion is in the minority and quite biased since you supposedly "drove your friends SI" and that is where you made your opinion. ;)
  • I don't know where you get that impression from. I sure didn't. It has as much as the GTI or many other "performance cars".

    Driven around town there is a decided difference in how the Si gets moving v. the immediate 200 ft-lbs of the GTI. I enjoyed revving my buddy's Si but not so much I'd want to spend every day on the north side of 5k for everyday driving.

    Motor Trend preferred it over the GTI as did Edmunds as a matter of fact.

    So? I didn't. I'm buying. They aren't.

    Reviews give it anywhere from 6.5 to 6.9 seconds in the 0-60. Plus it out handles the GTI by a long stretch in both reviews.

    Yeah, it's a tighter car in all respects. the handling is sharper but the trade-off is a really, really skateboardy ride. The whole chassis reacts to road imperfections. Some like that feel - the guys with cut springs for instant. I prefer to feel the imperfection through my steering wheel a la BMW/Mazda and to a lesser degree VW.

    So I would say your opinion is in the minority and quite biased since you supposedly "drove your friends SI" and that is where you made your opinion.

    Ugh...this kind of ad hominem attack makes talking in a civil manner to some people very difficult.

    In the end, the Si is a nice deal for 20k. But the engine is loud and buzzy in an Orange County way. The ride's harsh but provides good cornering. The engine's fun to zip up and the car has a typically sublime Honda tranny (far better than anything from Mazda, VW, BMW, etc...well anyone save the Mazda MX-5 NA and NB). But the engine's lack of torque means I must constantly wring it out and even then it lacks the forceful power I desire (hell my last two 3.0 liter BMWs matched to 6 speeds have felt gutless too, so I'm sorta demanding).

    The GTI's - highs:

    1. The ride's comfortable and offers some sport. A 288 mm sway and a lowering kit wouldn't hurt the ride quality and would definitely improve the car's handling. hopefully shifting it from understeer to at least neutral or preferably oversteer prone.

    2. Additionally, the Xenon option makes this an easy decision for me. I won't go back to halogens. Ever again. Two cars with Xenon and I'm sold for life.

    3. Finally, the GTI's engine is easily tuned for 250hp/300tq - $700 gets you shove-you-back power on tap all the time. Short of a several thousand dollar install of a sc or turbo, there's no way to make an Si develop the sort of torque I crave.

    4. Interior refinement is just the class of the segment and really most cars.

    GTI downsides:

    1. VW build quality. Well, all german cars - save porsche - are poorly made. VW continues a longstanding tradition. My BMWs were built like a mentally challenged monkey assembled them and my last VW was the same way.

    2. See 1.

    3. See 2.

    Mazdaspeed3 - highs

    1. Great handling in the 3 2.3i hatch (the hatch is a must have anyway for me) and my affinity for Mazda handling (they're the BMW of Japan when it comes to roadfeel/handling) puts this car at the top of my list.

    2.Xenon lights.

    3. Reliability. Owned many mazdas and so has the fam - rock solid, best cars made for people who like to drive hard, imho. Yes empirically, this doesn't appear true. But in my little world, Mazdas have been the best cars around - mixing fun, great chassis design and reliability.

    4. Power - the turbo in the MS6 is a fun engine. Like all turbos, there's chipping potential.

    Mazdaspeed3 - lows:
    1. Crud gearing that makes 6th anything but a cruising gear.

    2. Lousy Mazda resale value.

    3. It will sell for below invoice by December.

    4. Bad mazda dealership service.

    5. Bad mileage.

    BTW, 6.9 0-60 is anemic for what I'm used to. My 2003 330i ZHP did sub 6 second 0-60 runs. My current one is a low 6 second car and that car feels quite slow to me.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I read the Mazdaspeed 3 will do 0-60 in "about 6 seconds".

    The current issue of Car and Driver had the Mazdaspeed3 do 0-60 in 5.3 seconds.....thats a wee bit faster then both GTI and Si.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Some personally directed comments have been removed. Let's just stick to talking about the cars rather than each other ... thanks.
  • I've read on other sites that some Mazda 3 owners in the hot Southwest have had issues about the cooling efficiency in the 3.....Is anybody in any hot area experiencing cooling problems with the Mazda 3 Air Conditioner?

    Will the Turbo in the Mazdaspeed3 make the car that much harder to cool?
  • Highly doubt that, 6 seconds sounds more reasonable. Plus the fact that it is a hatchback with handling that can never match a coupe like the SI.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Plus the fact that it is a hatchback with handling that can never match a coupe like the SI.


    That's a good one! Are you here all week by chance? :P
  • And the Si coupe will never match the handling of a Lotus Elise. Apples to oranges.

    I think a much fairer comparison would be the Si sedan against the MS3.

    For the added utility of four doors and a hatch, plus the turbo'd engine, it's going to be hard to beat the MS3 (at least in my book).

    Greg
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Highly doubt that, 6 seconds sounds more reasonable. Plus the fact that it is a hatchback with handling that can never match a coupe like the SI.

    Hey, buddy, read the current issue of Sport Compact Car!! The author says the Si cannot compete, in any aspect. Not those exact words, but, read the article, you will get the point.
  • So, because Sport Compact car says so, it is so? I dont think so. No VW/Mazda Hatchback, turbo charged or what not can keep up with the SI in the curves. It will beat them.
  • "No VW/Mazda Hatchback, turbo charged or what not can keep up with the SI in the curves. It will beat them."

    So you have driven the MS3?? How about waiting until the verdict is out..

    Anyway, it won't matter. Even with the curves, the MS3 is so much faster that it would have no problem blowing the Si coupe away everywhere else..

    I almost bought a Civic Si, but the horrible interior and massive front windshield were just too much. And I own both a Mazda and a Honda, and I can tell you that there is little to no difference in fit and finish between the Mazda and Honda. Honda makes a great car, but the MS3 simply blows the Si away on paper.. And I would not be surprised to see an MS3 sedan in the near future..
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    No VW/Mazda Hatchback, turbo charged or what not can keep up with the SI in the curves. It will beat them.

    According to Motor Trend the regular "Joe" Mazda3 5-door pulls .87g on the skidpad while the Civic Si pulls .89. Their figure eight test shows the 3 with an average time of 27.4 seconds @ .62g while the Si came in at 26.8 seconds at .64g. I couldn't find their slalom speed for the Si but they ran the 3 through at 64.9 mph.

    You see how the Si barely beats the base Mazda3 5-door. And you think it will beat the MAZDASPEED3 at, well, anything? Did we finally get through to you yet? ;)
  • I'm sure some mag will do an econo coupe match up. An aussie rag did the R32 and MS3. Obviously the R32 is far more composed but it's also a good 8k more expensive!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    I'm guessing all the mags will do an econo hot rod matchup. These things are pretty hot these days. I also don't think we'll see anything surprising, like the Si being crowned the performance champ, come out of those matchups either.
This discussion has been closed.