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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si



  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I hope that's just an ugly rumor started by mazda haters. The car would be pretty worthless as FWD only.

    I really do hope it's AWD. If it is, this shoots to the top of my list. small, nimble, quick sports wagon? only downside is no convertible (could hold off and get a used miata a year or two later then).
  • josh28josh28 Posts: 14
    Where does Edmunds have specs on the MazdaSpeed3? I've checked New Cars and Future Vehicles but found nothing.

    Re: FWD, I've read that the 3 MPS will be FWD in part to differentiate it from the 6 MPS as well as to compete on "price and performance." IMO (since this is all subjective) I'm hoping for FWD; better fuel economy, better acceleration and slightly lighter hence more chuckable.
  • tsx24tsx24 Posts: 85
    The information is on INSIDE LINE news article on edmunds. you know how much torque steer will screw this car over if it is FWD only? I will not be interested in this car unless it is AWD. This will be a real shame by mazda if no AWD. to the unreliable Audi A3 I will have to go. they wouldnot be competing on "performance" if they have FWD only....just price.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    As a FWD car acceleration and handling would be compromised by the fact that the car would have massive torque steer. Heck even now a regular one has torque steer when really shoved around.

    Not to mention FWD cars handle like garbage when really pressed. Yeah the Mazda3 is fun but when push comes to pull, in a corner I'd rather push out of it than understeer and pull away.

    Don't like the weight of AWD but I'd accept that it if meant I could stomp on the car and not have it tug left or right.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "One more thing - if you've read the road tests on the upcoming 2006 VW GTI, the general consensus is that "VW has once again raised the bar" - which the original GTI did back in 1976. The GTI is the ORIGINAL pocket rocket which provided the inspiration for the genre all the way to the present day pocket rockets. And that's a fact...."

    But the MkV drives nothing like the MkI, Britain's AUTOCAR, etc. pointed out the MkV got no real steering feel along w/ lack of comfy ride.

    No wonder I got to spend a fortune duplicating the MkI (w/ a trunk & wide rear glass for lane change ease):

    You can laugh at VW's steering feel all you want these days, but my '90 Protege & manual-steering '84 Jetta both beat the Mazda3 & American Focus in this area.

    It's like you can get the E46 Beemer w/ sport suspension, but the older E36 w/ lower-g-force std suspension is still more fun due to more steering feel. IMO.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    From Motor Trend's preview of the upcoming Golf GTI:

    "While 200 horsepower is entry-level these days for a decent pocket-rocket, in this light, lithe and sleek hatchback, it feels like the right number, making for a well-balanced car. You can throw the car into a tight turn, downshift to second, and get even, strong power from the turbo four, with virtually no lag and with a crisp, rorty exhaust note that could be a tad louder. It's uncanny how smooth this turbo engine is, certainly the smoothest four-cylinder of its kind. VW estimates a 7.2-second 0-to-62-mph time, and it feels a bit quicker. But, like the original 110-horsepower GTI launched in Europe in 1976, the car isn't all about power; it's about graceful use of power. Think of that first GTI versus a big sled of a 1964 GTO, and you'll understand. The GTI will make you feel good about turning and braking as well as going straight, where the VW shows its European bias--estimated top-speed is about 146 mph."

    The GTI's 7.2-second 0-62mph time equates to a sub 7-second 0-60 time. The fact that the GTI does it with 56 less horses than the upcoming Mazda 3 tells me that you really have to wind the Mazda engine to get to its peak torque - while the GTI's peak torque starts at 1850 rpm. A prime example of "less is more".

    Bottom line: There is more to a "hot hatch" than 0-60 times, horsepower ratings and skidpad ratings - the key to the GTI is its overall balance...
  • nkeennkeen Posts: 316
    I recently sold my 2002 GTi due to reliability problems. I now have a 2004 Acura TL 6 speed, which is very fast, but really a bit of a lump to drive. I miss the handling and tactile, immediate nature of the VW.

    Will the Mk V sold in the U.S. be German built (I thought I read somewhere that all Golfs would be but could be wrong)? Also, will we get the 146 MPH top speed, or will the US version be electronically emasculated like the BMWs sold here? 130 perhaps? I think (going back to the 60 Minutes Audi sudden acceleration fiasco and before) the technically precise Germans have little respect for American drivers, with their poor lane discipline, cell phones to ear and their coffee slopping around the car, and will do anything to avoid litigation in this market.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    nkeen: the 06 e90 3 series is no longer limited to 128. btw, some versions of the e46 were limited to 155 - like my 330i performance package. I know for a fact my specific car will blast right on past 128. ;)

    600k: the blurb i read about 7+ seconds to 60 for the mazda was on edmunds site. regardless, with 250 hp and 2800 lbs, the car would have to sprint to 60 faster than 7 old jetta turbo could do it in a little over 7. Something's not right with those numbers.

    Oh and considering how dialed in the Mz3 is now it's safe to assume the mazdaspeed version will cut corners like a monster. haven't driven a new gti yet - look forward to it - but my experience with the last gen VW gti doesn't have me confident the car will be tuned like the euro one. Maybe VW is finally willing to give us decent handling again.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    Based on what I've read, the GTIs will be built in Wolfsburg. The regular Golf will probably come from Brazil.
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    "but my experience with the last gen VW gti doesn't have me confident the car will be tuned like the euro one."

    I don't think lack of Euro tuning was a problem with the previous GTI(s). Except for the RS32, lately they just were heavy with mediocre performance and outdated suspension.

    "Maybe VW is finally willing to give us decent handling again."

    All (international) reviews I have read indicate that the completely redesigned suspension (and finally, independent rear), increased rigidity, and the torquey TFSI make a convincing package.

    Now all I have to decide between is a 4-door GTI (if available in the US), a Golf with the TFSI and sport suspension, or the A3 (if available with quattro and TFSI). I would also seriously consider a 140-170hp TDI.
  • mazda6smazda6s Posts: 1,901
    "Now all I have to decide between is a 4-door GTI (if available in the US), a Golf with the TFSI and sport suspension, or the A3 (if available with quattro and TFSI). I would also seriously consider a 140-170hp TDI."

    Yeah, there will be a 4-door GTI, but it will be the GLI. ;)
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    "Yeah, there will be a 4-door GTI, but it will be the GLI."

    Thank you, but no thank you. I like hatches and wagons. Rumors from a source close to VWoA have it that there will be a 4-door GTI this time in the US (like in Europe) - probably a higher chance than the regular Golf getting the 2.0 TFSI engine as an option.

    A beefy (140-170hp) TDI would be nice, too, especially with AWD.

    I would have to see both of them in person; the GTI looks sharp, but I don't want the boy-racer look. Also, I am concerned with ground clearance where I live, although my daily route with 1/2 the drive through the twisties would make a sport suspension fun.

    This is why the Forester XT (perhaps lowered and with stronger rear sway bar) is also still in the running for me.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    How about this... Who cares about GTI's higher cornering g-force. The Golf/Jetta lost the steering feel since after the MkIII. ml

    Oops, not sure if it'll make it here.
  • allhorizonallhorizon Posts: 483
    The article you mention tests the non-turbo 2.0 FSI that is currently not available in the US and may never make it here. It also emphasizes the difference between the AWD and non-AWD Golf versions - non of them GTIs.

    FWIW, I have read more than 10 reviews of the new electro-mechanical steering in the A3/ Golf/GTI/Jetta, and have yet to come by one that is not decidedly enthusiastic about it.

    See your nearest Audi/VW dealer for a test drive.
  • mz3bmz3b Posts: 13
    You know? Mazda3 has the potential to be the best compact car on the planet. Sure you're going to get nit-wits griping that the brakes arent big enough, or its not snappy enough, or the rearview mirrors are too ugly, or the windshield washers are misplaced. The fact is, for the money, its the best buy, period. I shopped for compacts and this car just took the cake. I compared prices, performance, looks, and economy. Hard to judge reliability on a car that has only been out a month before I bought it. I took a chance. To me, everything else was just average for the same money. The MZ3 struck me as being well above average.

    Now on to the MAZDASPEED3. Mazda has the potential to provide a car that can whipe the street with the competition. I mean the total package. Looks, performance, reliability, economy, safety, you name it. I hope they don't drop the ball here though. The ultimate test for Mazda is to stuff a [non-permissible content removed] ton of horsepower in this car and also design a drive train and suspension to harness it. Thats the key. Straight line, cornering, the whole nine yards. They are going to have to do their homework in order to make it affordable too. I am confident they can get it done. And when they do you can kiss your WRX's (which are the ugliest cars with a Porsche engine on the planet), Golfs, 'yota's, and whatever else good bye.

    I know some of you are saying "there is no market for a pocket rocket" and "Mazda needs to build a solid reputation again before going out on a limb with the Speed3 by focusing on where the markets lie" blah blah blah......Well here is Mazda's chance to break the mold and set trends.

    This car is already setting trends, though. Note the headlight bezels on the new toyota camrys. The front end of the new Acura's (I dont know the models off hand but you can picture them). You get my drift. Wait and see......this is THE next compact.
  • mz3bmz3b Posts: 13
    1987 VW Golf GT - 624,000 miles
    1975 VW Scirocco - 250,000 miles

    After how many engine swaps?? My bud owns a jetta. He just puked an engine....and he drives it really gentle like......I dont know for sure but I'm guessing he had under 100K on it. It was cracked up in the nose, he did the cosmetics on it really cheap. Now he knows why.

    Also VW's are just average. Mazda's are above average.
  • mz3bmz3b Posts: 13
    I agree with the AWD. I would spring the extra cash for it. I wouldnt care about the extra weight either. The extra horsepower will compensate. Also it depends how drastic Mazda wants to get but things can be done to cut weight. Aftermarket goodies like body panels, etc.

    Bring on the MZ-Speed3!

  • mz3bmz3b Posts: 13
    Bottom line: There is more to a "hot hatch" than 0-60 times, horsepower ratings and skidpad ratings - the key to the GTI is its overall balance...

    You dont think Mazda knows this?? We shall see what tomorrow brings. I have a feeling though that the GTI is going to take a back seat to the trend setting MZ3 about to knock the Golf off balance and off the charts...

    Just a side note. I work with a guy who has a VR32 or whatever that GTI Golf clown car is. It pushes 250 Hp with the intake and chip (6 speed manual, 18" dubs, all that jazz and some rear suspension mods). He said in a straight line its pissa' but the RX8 eats it up in the corners (his wife has an RX8). I know, different classes of cars but a testament to Mazda's overall handling characteristics. Also a really short wheelbased Golf with suspension mods should be somewhat comparable to a larger wheelbased RX8, dont 'cha find??
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    The R32 is the last gen GTI.

    The next get one comes with an IRS and it's far lighter than thr MkIV.

    I'm actually quite interested in the GTI 2.0 DSG as it's a sub 3000 lbs car and it's got one of the best engines around (I actually prefer that 2.0 to my 330i's inline 6). And that DSG is sensational. I've only driven an A3 DSG but even that car had me excited and delighted.

    Imagining that same engine on a much lighter, lower, more nimble GTI...yummy. And the tuners out there always can tweak Veedub turbos for more power. Great handling, awesome engine, super gas mileage, uncannily smooth DSG and of course an exceptional VW cockpit all grab my attention.

    We'll see what the info is coming out for the Mazdaspeed3. I'm not totally sold on the interior v. VW. And the engine and its economy worry me too as my Protege ES Mt5) can slurp gas when I'm really flogging the little beast. On the flip side, mazdas are bulletproof (in my 15 years of experience with them) and VWs are prone to major breakdowns (experience and the record).

    I won't declare one has me over the other but I must say on paper the DSG equipped GTI has me more interested now. Reliability be damned.
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