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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    faster than you, don't get me wrong man, i've got a 07 rabbit that i switched over from a brand new civic, i can appreciate a german car no problem. But lets not be silly and say stuff like you think you people would. I mean all pretenses rather fix a german car than have a problem free japanese one. I agree that going by all those numbers is a lame approach, but just like all the german car bashers here, you are resorting to those same numbers!

    Just because the european accord is the acura tsx here in the states does not mean that 'the real honda' is in europe; their version of the civic in europe, while it has more dramatic styling, has an inferior suspension to our double wishbone version here and their high performing type r civic which should be out soon is actually on par with our si, which is not supposed to be as exclusive.

    Look, i would take a gti over a lot of cars, its my, hopefully,next vehicle. But i still can respect competitors.

    Look, i know that honda may fall just a hair short of interior build quality behind vw, but thats just a hair and its very very arguable. My civic was pretty impeccable and if you are insinuating that honda is cheap, your, well...just wrong. If you have a preference for a brand thats fine, hey who doesn't! But it just seems that you are a bit of a flamer thats all. I used to do what you do, but i've tried to tone it down. It does not help anyone to understand your point better...i don't think anyone will be able to either since what you are trying to prove is not a point, but that you think one brand is better than another.

    Right now, i think i favor vw more than honda, they offer a cool sporty car that has torque and looks good and is available with something reminiscent of an automatic, something that honda doesn'T not offer with their si and i love that car too, and i understand why they offer it with only a manual.

    I'm pretty sure that vw europe doesn't sit there and analyze the fact that americans don't look for special cars. Its because its not true. Maybe some of them don't, but not everybody. Hatchbacks just don't do as well with the average american, but i happen to love them. The golf sells better in europe because of that. I think that if vw doesn't feel that the US will be a good market to sell in they wouldn't do things like make the rabbit nameplate exclusive to us or make the 2.5 five cylinder exclusive either.

    I agree that for SOME of us the gti is unmatched. I personally thing that for ME it is also unmatched. But i think honda is a great company too and that both companies have their strengths and weaknesses.

    Dont be hatin'! :blush:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    When did VW start the GTI, out of curiousity? :confuse: :)
  • "When did VW start the GTI, out of curiousity?"

    June 1976.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Thanks.

    Just wanted to know how much earlier the GTI came out than the Civic Si. 9 years is the answer.
  • 1 place Lexus(has about 126 defects per 100 cars)and for example BMW(I think is 17th place has like 170 per 100 cars). If we assume that that's true is still an insignificant difference.

    Hardly. It's a massive difference. Lexus had 136 problems per 100, while BMW was far behind at 212 and VW is ludicrously behind at 299.

    http://autos.aol.com/article/general/v2/_a/lexus-most-dependable-auto-brand-for/- 20060810091909990001

    If you're getting 50-60% more problems than the guy next to you, you're spending far more time at a dealership. VW's ranking is much, much lower - almost 300 problems per 100 cars. That's a difference that's near impossible to ignore.
  • Suprised by your dismissive comment.

    Well I was surprised by his absurd statement. VW's not just a little behind Honda in terms of reliability...
  • For the study, Westlake Village, Calif.-based J.D. Power questions owners of three-year-old vehicles about problems they are experiencing. This year's survey questioned 47,620 original owners of 2003 model-year cars and trucks.

    Wow, 47,000 people surveyed from 37 different car manufacturers...hmm... :confuse:
  • It'd called a representative sample. This is how polls are conducted.
  • "Hardly. It's a massive difference. Lexus had 136 problems per 100, while BMW was far behind at 212 and VW is ludicrously behind at 299."

    A massive difference????????. You are not serious, are you?
    When they will say Lexus has 3 problems per 100 vehicles and BMW 212 they I will count Lexus as being very reliable compared with a BMW . According to your numbers I would still need to go to the dealership if I buy a Lexus and that's enough reason not to settle for a lesser car. With the BMW at least I have the satisfaction of having a fantastic car. The odds are that I have all the chances to get a BMW that is problem free but absolutely no chance to get a Lexus that will satisfy me as a driver.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    what this thread is suppossed to be about. :P
  • "I'm pretty sure that vw europe doesn't sit there and analyze the fact that americans don't look for special cars. Its because its not true"

    That's what car makers do...analyse the market. And yes the regular car buyer in America is a lot more interested in reliability ratings than the actual quality of a car. You are not the regular car buyer just like most of the people that talk about cars online. The regular car buyer is the one that buys a Honda because "It's a Honda" :confuse:. Like that is suppose to tell you something more than, it is just a car brand. Honda and Toyota are a cult in US just like Mercedes and BMW are a cult in the rest of the world. Take a look at this picture and you will see what the buyers want in their respective market. It is "supposed reliability" vs excellence. I am saying supposed because the reliability rating are different in Europe with Mercedes and Audi being in top for the most reliable luxury brands, not Lexus. Who's right about this ratings? I don't really know. All I know is that the sure bet is always the better car and not the supposedly more reliable one.

    "I agree that for SOME of us the gti is unmatched. I personally thing that for ME it is also unmatched. But i think honda is a great company too and that both companies have their strengths and weaknesses."

    I agree that Honda is a good brand but they sell junk inside US under that name instead of just selling the Acura priced lower and branded Honda.
    I actually drove the Civic type R and I can tell that is miles ahead this American SI. Is faster, tuned more aggressively, has better seats, better interior. We would call that here Acura RSX type S(not the old version of course).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If I (a car-buyer who paid a lot of money for a brand new car) have to take my car to the dealer twice as much as you do because of a problem, I consider that to be a massive difference, yes. A brand new car these days, regardless of manufacturer, shouldn't have 3 problems per brand new car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Honda and Toyota are a cult in US just like Mercedes and BMW are a cult in the rest of the world. Take a look at this picture and you will see what the buyers want in their respective market.

    That makes whom our supreme leader, Sochiro Honda?

    It is "supposed reliability" vs excellence.

    The facts (various consumer reporting media) say it is actual reliability excellence. Nobody here is trying to take away from the fact that the VW is a fine automobile to drive.

    Well, then it certainly seems the rest of the market is flooded with junk, if what you say is true. Honda's Accord is on the car & Driver Ten Best List for the what, 21st year out of 25? The Pilot AND Odyssey are both on the list for 5 Best Trucks for several years running. That doesn't make them perfect in my eyes... a magazine doesn't decide for me. But what it does tell me is that there are others who decidedly feel that this "junk" accusation is pretty laughable.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    of course they analyze the market, no one is disputing that, i'm just saying that its a bit silly to say that vw looks at america and says; they aren't interested in any premium products. I doubt that honda looks at it that way too. For example the 02-05 civic hatch. its a lot less gung-ho styled than the regular new civic hatch that is available in europe right now and it got flamed again and again on not just its performance but its looks. Can you imagine what such a dramatic looking car such as the new civic hatch in europe would do over here? I can already imagine the negative posts that would just be flying around! (i personally like it but i'm figuring that most americans wouldn't) not to mention the american markets preference for sedans over hatches. In my opinion, that IS looking at the market and designing vehicles accordingly. Do i wish the euro civic was over here? Yes. Would it do as well as the current gen civic sedan? No probably not. honda realizes that.

    And again the fact that the tsx is the accord in europe doesn't mean that the accord we have here is inferior. I'm pretty sure there are at least some europeans who wish that they had the us spec accord over there for personal reasons, much how i would like a diesel euro civic hatch here in america.

    Back to the si though.... you said you drove the new civic type r. Hmmm... its not even out yet is it? Unless of course you are reffering to the p rev. gen. type r? The one that looks like our 02-05 si? Yes that version is tuned more aggressively, has better wheels and tires and it has the 200 hp engine that we now have in our si coupe and sedan. (if im not mistaken it also has a six speed tranny like our current si and si sedan as well.) As far as the new type r goes, the only real difference is a ,yes, 'better' if not more complicated looking interior, 212 horsies as opposed to 197 and they happen to find themselves further down the tack to make more usable power and torque. This plus the fact that there is a trim level that will reduce the weight of the thing should make it faster than our si, but i don't know if it will out handle it; i don't think it comes with a lsd and i know for a fact it has a torsion beam rear suspension! But since you drove it maybe you could shed some light on it? Or can you not compare the 2 since it does not seem that you would even take the time to bother with the american si to even test drive it?

    Are you in europe? Because even if the new type r is available, its only available there, will be in limited supply, and for your info type r has never, ever been available in the US in civic guise. Only on the integra. So that whole 'america gets the crappy hondas' crap is just ridiculous. Personally, i think that the new civic type r, despite its good looks, should have offered the k23 turbo in the rdx to make it more competitive against vw and mazda's offerings instead of offering a few mild performance upgrades and an aggressive look.

    And if the new type r would be here in the us, i doubt that it would be the new acura rsx type s.

    As a matter of fact, going by what you seem to insinuate about honda being crappy outside of europe, how did you feel about the new si outperforming the now extinct acura type s? Doesn't that kind of contradict the notion that honda sells lesser products under its honda badge in the us?
  • A massive difference????????. You are not serious, are you?
    When they will say Lexus has 3 problems per 100 vehicles and BMW 212 they I will count Lexus as being very reliable compared with a BMW .


    136 v 212 means BMW has 1.558 problems for every 1 problem a Lexus has. That's a massive difference. So your neighbor takes his Lexus in twice per year while you've blown another 4 hours of your life taking your bimmer in a third time that year.

    According to your numbers I would still need to go to the dealership if I buy a Lexus and that's enough reason not to settle for a lesser car.

    JD Power's numbers, not mine.

    No response to 1.5 times one must take in their VW for every trip by a Honda owner?
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    the mazdaspeed 3 vs. civic si. vs. gti reliabilty. :P
  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    136 v 212 means BMW has 1.558 problems for every 1 problem a Lexus has. That's a massive difference.
    What blueguydotcom is saying is accepted by most of the auto journalists that I have read. A car with poor reliability can still be fast, exciting, and luxurious. Reliability just happens to be an attribute that many consumers value. If one disagrees, one can always ignore these reports and surveys. Let's not distort the reports or surveys to suit ourselves.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    very true. I would also agree that sometimes this notion of perceived reliability is taken a bit to far sometimes though. Even though its important to a lot of the posters here, it may not be the foremost thing on peoples mind when considering cars such as we are discussing. It very well could be, but how many mazda fans would go for the si if they knew the ms3 was going to have less than stellar than reliability? They probably would still get it anyway. Besides these cars have so many other virtues that can be compared and weaknesses to be overcome that we can discuss. These discussions too often turn into 'this one is better and everything else sucks' (ahem fasterthanyou ;) ) when i think it'd be nice if it was more along the lines of 'why i like this one best for me.'
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I actually drove the Civic type R and I can tell that is miles ahead this American SI. Is faster, tuned more aggressively, has better seats, better interior. We would call that here Acura RSX type S(not the old version of course).

    Where did you get to drive one? Europe?

    From all the specs I have seen, it uses the same drive train that the current Civic Si uses here. As for interior, pictures do not paint the whole picture.

    The Acura RSX has ben discontinued, but, really, it is the current Si. Same frame, similar drive train, same power. Besides, the out going RSX was more like a Honda. Very cheap on the interior for Acura standards.
  • "No response to 1.5 times one must take in their VW for every trip by a Honda owner?"

    Do you hear yourself? 1.5 times? Why don't you buy a Buick then? Is rated better than Honda.
    This is what you are trying to tell me that I should buy a Lexus instead of a BMW because I could avoid spending 12 hours in a dealership instead of 8? How about the rest of 8752 hours in that year that I have to spend with that miserable car, Lexus. Those are not important to you? Well, they are to me. If 4 hours is the price I have to pay to drive the car I want...I'll take it.
  • "These discussions too often turn into 'this one is better and everything else sucks' (ahem fasterthanyou ) when i think it'd be nice if it was more along the lines of 'why i like this one best for me."'

    I'm not saying everything else sucks. I don't have a problem with Honda in general(I actually own one)just with the inferior products they sell in the States under this name.
  • "And again the fact that the tsx is the accord in europe doesn't mean that the accord we have here is inferior."

    Are you kidding? Acura TSX and Honda Accord US versions look to you like they have the same quality?
    US spec Accord is a monstrosity in its current form.
  • "Reliability just happens to be an attribute that many consumers value. If one disagrees, one can always ignore these reports and surveys. Let's not distort the reports or surveys to suit ourselves."

    I'm not saying reliability is not important but 1.5 defects as opposed to 1 defect means ....nothing. I might have "half", or "almost" a defect more in a year?. That makes Lexus reliable and BMW unreliable? That should keep me a way from the most exciting brands? Please... :confuse:
  • This is a GTI thread. The GTI is part of the VW family and is rated at 299 problems per 100 cars.

    The funny thing is, I'm leaning toward the GTI. Stop acting like I'm anti-VW. What I'm pointing out is quite simple: I'm not going to mislead people and tell them VW and Honda are step for step on quality. That's simply not true.

    Yes VW's GTI is fun to drive. But it should go without saying that it will probably be more problematic than a Honda Civic.
  • Unfortunately, reliability surveys can give wildy different results. They are hardly reliable themselves.

    In the JD power survey, Mazda is doing pretty poorly.
    However, in this survey of UK and US cars:
    link title
    Mazda is number one in reliability followed closely by Honda. VW seems to be lagging behind.

    Although I may not agree with Consumer Report's methods, I like how they do reliability based on specific models (even trims within models) as opposed to entire brands. That makes more sense in this global economy where cars from the same brands may be built in different parts of the world.

    From my general impressions of the various surveys out there, this is what I've concluded:
    Honda seems to have pretty good reliability across the board.
    Mazda seems to have good reliability with cars built in Japan, and improving reliability with cars built elsewhere.
    VW seems to have poor reliability across the board.

    This is how I look at these makes. However, when buying, you should look at all the reliability surveys out there, look at how they conduct their surveys and come to your own conclusions.
  • I agree with you. Across the board though, it seems VW consistently lags. That certainly speaks volumes about the make.
  • "What I'm pointing out is quite simple: I'm not going to mislead people and tell them VW and Honda are step for step on quality. That's simply not true."

    You are right they are not equal in quality. VW is way better. If you are talking only about reliability between the two than who knows maybe you are right and the Civic will do better due to the antique technology and lack of features and electronic controls. The old, simple technology used by Honda makes for a crappy ride but sometimes works in the reliability department.
  • d_hyperd_hyper Posts: 130
    Lexus has much more technology and electronics on any of its models, not to mention hybrids, and still is at the top of reliability ratings. Your argument does not hold water. Actually this was not an argument, but rather a rant. :sick:
  • The broken record response. Spin it anyway you like. Look at the resale value of a 2006 Civic SI base with 15k miles and a 2006 GTI 2-door base with 15k miles.

    Civic:17,971
    GTI: 18,408

    The GTI was over 1000 more expensive than the Si but yet it's only worth about 425 more after just 1 year? What will this look like in year 3?!

    So perhaps the GTI uses new technology but that comes at a premium for cost, resale value and maintenance.

    FWIW, I'd take a 4 door GTI over a Civic Si sedan any day and twice on Sunday. ;)
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "You are right they are not equal in quality. VW is way better. If you are talking only about reliability between the two than who knows maybe you are right and the Civic will do better......"

    Amazing the way your mind works. An analogy - one aspect of a vehicle's performance is fuel efficiency. A Prius has better fuel efficiency than a GTI; ergo, a Prius has better performance than a GTI.

    Thanks, fasterthanyou; the application of your brand of logic will be very entertaining in the future.....
This discussion has been closed.