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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si



  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Now I wonder how a turbo Civic would do against the Mazdaspeed on the track."

    Probably better than a stock Civic.

    I wonder what a GReddy kit would do to your powertrain warranty? I wonder what a stock Speed3 would do with some of the upcoming Mazdaspeed parts? I wonder if Mazda will see fit to produce their Kabura concept car (2600 lb RWD coupe with a 3+1 seating configuration based on Miata mechanicals)? I wonder how a Kabura would do with the Speed3 motor? I wonder if a Civic Si would need a JATO bottle on the roof to keep up? :P

    Which begs the question - is this some sort of acknowledgement that a stock Civic Si doesn't match up well with a stock Speed3? ;)
  • mmmm Kabura. They need a drool icon!
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    No kidding.

    I think the only thing stopping the production of the Kabura is that it would kill RX-8 sales. Just my 0.02.
  • Wow Rorr, you so intelligent. You amaze me with your logic. LMAO :P
  • poita33poita33 Posts: 11
    I'm in the same situation as doubleohseven. I want a sporty fast car and a hatchback is more practical. I was looking at the Mazda3 or Rabbit, but wanted something with a little more power and performance. So the GTI is a logical step.

    I'm not looking to race so paying a bit extra for the 3speed over the GTI just isn't worth it since the GTI has more HP than I will ever need. I haven't found any other hatchbacks the fit this need so well.

    I love the look of the GTI especially the interior, but all this talk about reliability is killing my buzz.
    I think I will still go the for GTI next year and replace my Ford Contour(175HP).
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    "GReddy offers a failt inexpensive full turbo kit that boosts the stock HP up to 147. If you run the numbers, this gives the Honda a better power to weight ratio (which I think counts more than overall power, right? Correct me if I'm wrong) than the Mazda. That peaked my interest."

    You will run into a bit of a problem, grounding all that power. Yes, the Honda does have a limited slip, however, with out a computer system to help you ground that power, in addition to the limited slip, it will be left at the starting line.

    This is why Mazda had to use a computer aided torque limiting system to help launch the Mazdaspeed3 off the line.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    This was brought up (briefing) in another thread on Edmunds regarding a new performance test which Car and Driver is trying to implement: timed laps at VIR.

    They felt that, for performance cars, the standard old 0-60, 1/4 mile, skidpad, slalom, braking numbers don't tell the complete story about a car's performance and so they've started testing performance cars at VIR to get a better idea of how various cars fare against their competition.

    The test not only has the overall lap time but also entry speed/avg. speed/exit speed through 5 different sections of the track to try and see WHERE each car is strongest (or weakest). Some sections stress high speed handling, others stress highly technical handling, others combination braking and turning, etc. etc.

    The Nov. issue has the results of the first round of tests. The Speed3 was NOT included in the group. However, the cars in the sub $30k group included the Civic Si and VW GTI. (Also included the Miata, Cobalt SS, Mustang GT, Mistu EVO, RX-8, and 350z)

    Between those two cars, those in the Civic camp may not like the results. The GTI was faster in every section, even in the low speed highly technical sections. They also commented that the Si chassis felt flabby (or floppy - can't remember the precise adjective used) and that the brakes gave up after just a couple of laps.

    The big shocker in the test was how good the Cobalt SS was on the track where it soundly trounced both the Civic Si and the GTI (much closer in lap times to the RX-8 and Mustang GT and was far and away the fastest FWD coupe in the test).

    Now, I'll be the first to admit that numbers are not everything (in fact, the Miata posted the slowest numbers almost everywhere on the track, yet by all accounts is one of the funnest, most rewarding cars to drive). But I thought I would just throw this out there for folks to mull over....
  • I'm not a big fan of mags but I think that test style is a better indicator of what cars can do.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Oh, it'll be great fodder for forum discussion.

    But I'm certainly not going to buy a car based on those numbers because how a car behaves on a track is NOT alway indicative of how it handles in the real world. Or even how much FUN it actually is on the street.

    Unfortunately, I can't think of any purely 'objective' test that could be performed which would indicate how much fun a car might be (not to mention the fact that we ALL have a diferent idea of what a fun car feels like).

    I say you can narrow down a buying decision to maybe 3 cars based on reviews, but nothing beats a hands-on drive.
  • but nothing beats a hands-on drive.

    True. I don't really put any stock in the mag's views. I gotta experience the car for myself.
  • Blasphemy! How dare you bring up empirical evidence stating the Si is not the best car in the world! ;)

    By the way, what is VIR?

    I'll be the first to admit that I've gotten caught up in the numbers game: looking at 0-60 and 60-0 times, skidpad numbers, etc. The conclusion I am finally reaching is that I don't need the fastest car, but I do want one that is engaging to drive with a balance of handling, power, ride quality, reliability and a bit of fun.

    I'm not sold on VW's reliability, both from CR and the few people I know who have owned VW's. I guess if I were leasing a GTI with the plan of getting rid of it prior to the warranty expiring, it may be different. For better or worse, I am going to buy my next car, and I have more faith in Mazda than VW. But time will tell.

    rorr...thanks for the information!

  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630

    I'm sure I was burned in effigy at the Temple of VTEC last night....

    VIR = Virginia International Raceway.

    "The conclusion I am finally reaching is that I don't need the fastest car, but I do want one that is engaging to drive with a balance of handling, power, ride quality, reliability and a bit of fun."

    Absolutely. Test numbers and lap times are fun fodder for forums such as these, but nothing beats an actual road-test to see just what car appeals to you the best. As noted, the Miata was the slowest car they tested at VIR, but was probably the funnest.
  • nt/2114

    Still, despite all this wholesome goodness, the Civic Si suffers a dearth of power under 6,000 rpm. This lack of oomph is especially frustrating when passing on the freeway. Downshift from sixth gear into fourth and punch it! Now the car is making a bunch of noise but not really going anywhere. Plus, well, you’ve gotta downshift two gears to get this lack of response. Wait a moment or two, and the Civic’s motor finally screams up into its sweet spot, and you get what you came looking for – it just takes awhile. A Volkswagen Jetta GLI, by contrast, just whooshes right along.

  • riposteriposte Posts: 160
    I can identify with that feeling. I used to have a Ford Taurus SHO, which had a sweet Yamaha V-6, rated at 220 HP, but the power was way up in the RPM band. You had to downshift from 5th to THIRD on the highway to pass anything. Otherwise, it had no power at all.

    That got kind of old.

  • waiwai Posts: 327
    "A Volkswagen Jetta GLI, by contrast, just whooshes right along."
    I wonder if 2006 GLI with 2.0L turbo can just downshift one gear from six to five ISO six to four to have the passing power required.
    My 2004 GLI with 200hp required to downshift from six to four to generate enough passing power.
  • The 2006 GLI uses the 2.0T - that's 200 ft-lbs of torque from 1800 rpm to 5500 rpm. and 200 hp too. The car has go juice without ever downshifting.
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    The SI is a true sports car. Unlike the "GLI" it requires driving. It would beat the GLI on a track anyday. The GLI is larger, heavier and outright ugly.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The GLI is larger, heavier and outright ugly.

    Ugly is subjective, let's not forget that. Many people can't stand the "ugly" Civic interior, where I happen to like it.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The SI is a true sports car.

    A true sports car is RWD, if you want to get technical.

    Why is it more of a sports car then the GTI?
This discussion has been closed.