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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • davertdavert Posts: 23
    Volkswagen GTI cornering seems just fine. Rabbit will probably be very similar though less busy since the wheels/tires will be more pragmatically sized. With the horsepower of the regular Rabbit comes extra weight - I wonder how much faster it is compared to the original? ... my own GTI impressions are in this Volkswagen GTI car review.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    i belive the corninering is fine too, and there is a quite a bit of grip...but the body roll is nothing to write home about, as both the si and mazdaspeed 3 control it better. maybe only the new wrx is worse.

    dunno how much quicker than the original the new bunny is, but its quite a bit quicker than the model it replaces...with the same fuel economy.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    while all these Mazdaspeed3/VW V GTI/Civic Si are penalty boxes over bumpy roads.

    The Rabbit is luxurious, as its optional ipod includes a front center armrest w/ rear-seat A/C vents behind it, same as the GTI.

    Anyway, after my test drives, I've decided to own the 2.3 Focus ST. It handles way sharper, & especially its feel-ful steering makes it much more fun than the Rabbit, while still rides less nervously than even the non-turbo 2.3 Mazda 3S.
  • I've just had the pleasure of test driving the new 30th Edition GTI on a race track and boy it was good fun (extra 35bhp or so over Mk V GTI, 18 inch black alloy wheels, leather race seats, polished drilled steel pedals, etc). It didn't seem to want to let go on the corners no matter how hard it was pushed! I haven't tested any of the competitors cars mentioned here such as the MazdaSpeed3 or Honda Civic Si, but was wondering if anybody here has tested the 30th Edition GTI against these other cars and how they compared?
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    OK, you guys all want hardcore versions to compete w/ the hard-riding Mazdaspeed3.

    Now it's Civic's turn:

    http://honda.bfi0.com/W7RH02BFC330732251441313DE05E0

    & priced to match. :P
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    are you in europe? because we have no edition 30 gti here!

    the extra hp torque would be nice though!
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    i dunno about penalty boxes...i know they are stiffer than the rabbit (especially the si and mazdaspeed) but i would hardly call the gti a pentalty box, as its the most softly sprung out of all of them minus the regular versions of each respective car.

    the bunny is pretty darn luxurious though.

    creakid...i'm suprised you say that the focus st rides less 'nervously' over roads than the 3...i test drove one the other day and it was good fun, and sportier than my rabbit.

    is the st the c-1 chassis? i was always under the impression that the c-1 chassis can only be found under the euro focus...
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    creakid, i would hardly call this the 'hardcore' version.

    a free-er flowing exhaust and slighlty stiffer suspension...this is just a limited edition for some jdm fanboys.

    the civic that would fit your description was reviewed recently on insideline: the jdm civic type r sedan :222 hp, 8500 redline, 18 lightweight wheels, and incredibly well handling suspension that actually allows this civic to lap FASTER than a stock s2k, and brembro brakes.

    that is a hardcore civic.
  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,024
    It's a nice appearance package, but IMO it's not worth 29K.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • roadburnerroadburner Posts: 6,024
    this is just a limited edition for some jdm fanboys.

    You nailed it. All show, with very little-if at all-extra go.

    2009 328i / 2004 X3 2.5/ 1995 318ti Club Sport/ 1975 2002A/ 2007 Mazdaspeed 3/ 1999 Wrangler/ 1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica

  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    OK, a Civic Si with a Mugen suspension and aero kit, and a different Honda exhaust. I did not see any mention of more power. If it heads near $30K, its WAY over priced. I would rather buy the Mazdaspeed3 and add the Mazdaspeed intake and exhaust that adds make the engine a 293hp and 310tq monster.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    the jdm civic type r sedan :222 hp, 8500 redline, 18 lightweight wheels, and incredibly well handling suspension that actually allows this civic to lap FASTER than a stock s2k, and brembro brakes.


    I was in St. Lucia and picked up a British car mag, forgot the name, but, on the cover, it had a comparo between the WRX, Mazda3 MPS (Speed3 over here), and Civic Type-R. It was a pretty good article. The Subi came in last, the Mazda 2nd, and the Type-R 1st. Mazda got kudos for being the fastest, and handling while the Type-R won because of handling and driving ergernomics.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    yeah right now the brits love the type r, i've seen it proclaimed as the best hot hatch over there right now by a few euro car mags. (funny because edmunds review of it was less than stellar.)

    the type r i was talking about avi is the jdm version. its the one with the huge brakes and 222hp engine.

    some sources say 212, but the engine in the EUROPEAN hatch type r is supposed to be only 198 hp. Its essentially our si's engine, but tuned for torque and midrange. (it has more of it too rated at 142 lbs.)

    it actually only has a torsion beam rear suspension; but the interior and exterior simply own our si and the jdm type r(which is just a jdm civic sedan.)

    even though its technically the lesser of the two, i'd love the euro type r hatch, the sytling is amazing and its still quite a bit quicker than our si, if not quicker than the jdm r.

    again, the styling alone is the selling point. on top of that, while it does lack an lsd, it comes with a stiffer suspension, noticably bigger brakes, awesome wheels and a better k20.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    It is absurd that the Euro Civic w/ such low-tech suspension can beat the Control-Blade GTI & C-1 Focus ST, per most Brit magazines. That's b/c lowered sport versions don't use much suspension travel, & therefore the crude suspension geometry doesn't show much. The 5-cyl turbo in the C-1 Focus ST also hurts, no wonder it got ranked behind the GTI:
    creakid1, "2008 Ford Focus future vehicle" #43, 19 Jan 2007 2:11 am

    But once comparing the "normal" versions, the order almost always goes reverse. The C-1 Focus w/ 4-cyl beats both the Golf (Rabbit) & the Euro Civic, mainly b/c the Euro Civic's ride sucks & neither can match Focus' steering feel.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "...but i would hardly call the gti a pentalty box..."

    Yeah, but I'm sure the 30th Edition is, per some Brit magazine who found it too uncomfortable for British roads. :)

    "creakid...i'm suprised you say that the focus st rides less 'nervously' over roads than the 3...i test drove one the other day and it was good fun, and sportier than my rabbit."

    I only drove the '04 Mazda3's, so I don't know if its quick-rebound ride has changed or not. But the Focus ST has retuned the suspension after the '05 & no longer using the SVT shocks. No wonder Consumer Reports mentioned how comfortably the '06 ST rides.

    "is the st the c-1 chassis? i was always under the impression that the c-1 chassis can only be found under the euro focus..."

    Some Brit magazine also found the old BMW E36 3-series more fun than the E46 3-series mainly due to the more lively steering feel & more playful oversteer from the multi-links. So even an E36 w/ std suspension is still more fun than an E46 w/ the less comfy sport suspension.

    The same goes to the old C-170 Focus I vs the C-1 Focus II. The only thing wrong w/ the U.S.-spec is the over assisted steering on all but the discontinued SVT model. But I know how to fix that by tapping into the pwr-steering wires. I can also have this cheaply equipped car sound insulated by Dynamat to feel more luxurious.

    British Top Gear said:
    comp386, "2008 Ford Focus future vehicle" #47, 19 Jan 2007 10:14 am
    In other words, the old C-170 Focus I beats the Mazda3 & the Golf V.

    It also beats its own new version in fun but not ride/handling compromise (see post#67):
    creakid1, "Ford Focus 2005 release date" #67, 25 Dec 2004 12:39 pm

    That's right, you don't want to give up a lively tail if the high-tech Control Blade design can harness it w/in a predictable level.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    hey man whatever works works. i too was a bit of a snob and scoffed at this (and that with me being a honda fan), but you know what? like someone else on this site said its excecution that counts.

    if the focus or mazda 3 accomplished what they do using a torsion beam, than i'm sure you wouldn't complain. ;) there is no denying the purity of the type r philosophy.

    plus creakid, you haven't driven the type r have you? i'd say the brits are pretty savvy on their hatches...they know what they are doing. ;)
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    maybe i should clarify... i thought the c-1 chassis was the only reason why the focus was fun, and the only chassis that had the control blade suspension.

    i was under the impression that that 3 here in states was the only offering with the control blades....so your saying that even your focus st has them?

    but then again, you and top gear also think that regardless of the suspension, this older focus is more 'fun'? ok i get that. i'm just trying to confirm that this is what you are saying! because you mentioned it 'beating' the 'new' version, whereas i thought the c-1 was kinda oldish and not anything 'new'.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    never mind, i got educated on wikipedia.

    i know the differences now, so i guess the question i have is if the mk1focus in europe is the same suspension as the focus st we have here, because the wikipedia article on the american focus that i just finished reading didn't identify the chassis codes on the american focuses, just the euro ones.

    having said that, compared to the older euro focus AND the new c-1, most euro guys, including top gear, still think that the rabbit feels the nicest with regards to ride comfort, while stil having a sporty edge, even if its not as big as the old focus or c-1. so yeah, you were right. the rabbit does kinda ride like a luxury car.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "if the focus or mazda 3 accomplished what they do using a torsion beam, than i'm sure you wouldn't complain. there is no denying the purity of the type r philosophy."

    According to Brit magazines, the better Civic Europeans dream of is the multi-link-rear sport sedan privately imported from Japan!

    MkV's Control Blades really improved the MkIV GTI.

    Read post #44 & #45:
    creakid1, "Ford Focus 2005 release date" #44, 6 Oct 2004 2:56 pm
    Even today, VW never really duplicated the liveliness of the original MkI GTI, which has torsion-beam. But again, it's the steering that shines, & having multi-link rear on the MkI Rabbit is likely to make it even better.

    So far, I've collected a non-sport (springs/swaybar modified to match the LX sedan purely for comfort!) '00 Civic hatch, which sucks in steering feel & ratio, but its multi-link Double Wishbones all around was amazing when showing how evenly all 4 wheels drifted the same time! I doubt if the new Euro Civic can achieve such balanced drifting talent, or just having this level of road holding w/o hurting the ride comfort.

    I also collected an '84 MkI Jetta Wolfsburg (Recaro front seats) coupe & added GTI swaybars. Repairs have been troublesome, but, besides the fun manual steering, the rear seat was very comfy & cushes road shocks uncannily well!

    Last year, I collected the latest E36 -- '99 328is. Looking forward to power-wag its tail by adding LSD.

    My latest collection is of course, the just-discontinued '07 Focus ST w/ a big 4-cyl & quick steering ratio, & corners way sharper & w/ less front-end plow than my 6-cyl BMW.

    I'm still keeping my twin-cam '90 Protege LX w/ TTL suspension, which does scary donuts all the time, especially in the rain. But its steering feel is so good & the ratio is quick.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "...so i guess the question i have is if the mk1focus in europe is the same suspension as the focus st we have here..."

    Only our SVT had identical setting as their ST170. Our ST sedan also had the same suspension but w/o the lowered springs.

    Euro suspension settings vary from std to Ghia to ST170 to RS. Lately, ours starts from S/SE (no rear swaybar) to SES to ST. Back around '02, our Street Edition sedan/wagon (comes in bright yellow, red or blue) had Euro-setting suspension. I test drove it, & it felt pretty firm -- probaby the Euro Ghia setting. I ordered one but then cancelled it, b/c the Advance Track (stability program) was only available on the softly sprung ZTS.

    The old-design ligher-body C-170 has no subframes, so the car feels more direct to handle but noisier than the C-1. By the way, the Control Blade is just a cost-effective way to duplicate the expensive multi-link found in the early-'90's MkI Mondeo wagon.

    For those of you not familiar w/ C-1's (& C-170's) original ancestor Mondeo wagon, here's a recent ST220 sedan version of it:
    http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/Galleries/w24_GalleriesModelPicDisplay/0,,675- - - - - - - - - - - - -13649,00.html
    I'm sure it looks very familiar :D
    http://www.wheels24.co.za/Wheels24/Galleries/w24_GalleriesModelCompNavIndex/0,,6- - - - - - - - - - - 75,00.html

    & the 1st mass-produced C-1 Focus sedan started in Taiwan since late '04:
    http://roadtest.u-car.com.tw/roadtest-detail.asp?rid=61
    Scroll down & see another interesting corporate face from a Foreign-market Ford. Wow, like the Golf V, it even has rear A/C ducts.

    No wonder I don't think the exterior of my '07 C-170 U.S. Focus ST looks outdated :P
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