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Mazdaspeed3 vs. VW V GTI vs. Civic Si

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Comments

  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    let's knock off the personal blows.

    Posts with personal knocks on each other will be deleted. They derail the discussion.

    Thanks.
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    I have been to 3 different Mazda dealers - Mazda corporate is the problem.

    Has any MAZDA3 owner with a defective AC system had their problem fixed? I have seen a few posts that claim the diffusser helped some cars - but what about the owners who had the diffusser installed and still have a problem - maybe they just have bad dealers.

    What about the hard shifting tranny problem - anyone had that solved?

    I started to look for a replacement for my lemon Mazda3 - which is a real shame - the car has so many good things - but the company just will not stand behind their product. I even considered trading the 2004 (manufactured 10/2003) in on a 2005 - because I don't see very many cars (under $30K) that I really want.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    Now I understand why you've had problems. With that build date, you probably got the first or second Mazda3 that rolled off the line!!! :)

    Not that that should be a concern, I know, I know. But good grief, talk about asking for trouble!

    Listen, man. My 2005 Mazda3s wagon has a build date of 2/25/05. My car has been rock-solid and the a/c is just fine. I have 1,600 miles on the car (took delivery April 7) and I used the a/c yesterday and the day before when it hit 90 here in Richmond. My "well-insulated" body (6-1, 280 lbs.) stayed comfortable even in a long-sleeved shirt and tie.

    Since your dealer obviously knows what you've been going through, they may be more than willing -- for their sanity as well as yours -- to give you one heck of a trade toward a new Mazda3. Try it and see what they'll do.

    Meade
  • mz3bmz3b Posts: 13
    "live fast, die young make a pretty corpse"

    Growing old is overrated
    dying young is demonstated
    by those who live life inflated
    with fearless and fast behavior... ;)
  • mz3bmz3b Posts: 13
    Sounds like you got a bad apple bro. Thats a bummer because my Mz3 is fine. I run the piss out of it and the car loves it. My AC works fine, both last summer (new) and this summer. My gearbox is smooth as glass as well.

    Didn't you test drive it before you bought it? How does a gearbox all of a sudden start 'hard shifting'? Is it an auto or one of those in-between auto/manuals (which I wouldnt trust no matter who builds it). Give me the straight up manual gearbox and I'm happy.

    No auto manufacturer is perfect (especially VW :sick: ). Thats the bare bones truth.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    Incidentally, I parked next to a Mazda 3 today. At the same time I saw a Mazda 6 wagon. The Mazda 6 is what the 3 should have been. The Mazda 6 is sharp. So is the Mazda 5.
    Looks like the designers at Mazda made the 3 its neglected red-haired stepchild - the 3's bulbous, Jabba-the-Hut type body has Ringling Brothers written all over it. I was waiting for the clowns to come out of the car. With its bulging hoodline, if the 3 were a pro athlete, it would be banned from the league for steroids.

    At least the 6 and the 5 exhibit the smooth, flowing, European automobile-like shape. The designers beat the 3 with the ugly stick. If my old military unit saw the 3 driving out on the road, our A-10 aircraft tank killer (equipped with a 30mm gatling gun with armor-piercing shells) would use the 3 for target practice.

    The 3 may go fast or handle great, but that's because the car is so homely that it has to run away from its own looks.

    Other than that, the 3 is a decent ride.

    But remember, clown car or not - The GTI is the originator, the definition of the hot hatch (as much as people are in denial) - the facts are there. And according to most auto magazines and automotive experts around the world - The GTI still defines the hot hatch - Ford 3/Mazda Focus or not.

    No matter how reliable the 3 is, it will always play second-fiddle to the GTI in the hearts and minds around the world... ;) Like it or not...
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    So if I would have waited until 2006 to buy a Mazda3 - and got one that had all kinds of problems would anyone say - gee you should have waited until the 4th model year! If anyone thinks that because I bought a new model that this somehow makes all of these problems my fault - or I should have known better - I just don't agree. I have purchased new (first year) models many times - all had a few bugs - but all were fixed under warranty without any complaint.

    Although I do understand that buying a new model as a certain risk (maybe an extra trip or 2 to the dealer) - the company selling the car should still stand behind the vehicle. To just accept NO SERVICE - NO WARRANTY because this is a new model is (IMO anyway) pure BS

    I test drove the car 3 times before buying it.

    The tranny (automatic) started shifting harsh (1-2 gear) 3 months or so after I bought it. At first it was a few times each morning - like it was cold and after a mile or so it would be so smooth you could not even tell it was changing gears. So I did not see it as that big of a deal. But now it is obviously harsh - like a clunk about 1/2 the time - always in the morning - but also after the car has warmed up. I also get a very large CLUNK every few days -

    I called Mazda customer service and ask them if they have a TSB on this problem - they told me that they can not give any information to customers about TSB's. Which seems strange because they gave me a TSB on both the AC diffusser and also on the grinding rear brake defect. I was given a case number - that a service tech can use when the call the tech support line.
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    "Incidentally, I parked next to a Mazda 3 today. At the same time I saw a Mazda 6 wagon. The Mazda 6 is what the 3 should have been."

    Now that would defeat the purpose of the 3 now wouldn't it. The 3 is a compact. The 6 wagon is a wagon. Besides its the best selling Mazda globally. It must be the hottest red headed step child ever. Enough said about that.

    Is the GTI really that good looking. Im not a fan. The front end is too boy racer for me and the back end looks bloated (funny you claimed that about the Mazda3). The car has narey a line to it either. Look at the side profile. You could play pool on the side of the car its so flat. You claim the Mazda3 is ugly. Thats ok. You are the first person I have heard that from. I can live with one person out of a hundred thinking my car is ugly.

    Lastly, I will give you that the GTI did define the segment. Define being past tense. In Europe, where this segment actually gets some love and attention, the GTI plays second fiddle to the Focus and Astra. While the Focus here now sucks, Id still take a Mazda3 or a Mini as my pick for the best hatch in America. The current GTI looks like a box on wheels. Beyond that, its hardly a handler. Thats kind of a deal killer for the segment. Perhaps the next GTI will give more credit to the GTI, but its all just a matter of time till the Mazdaspeed3 makes it a mute point. The 3 already handles as good or better than the GTI. The Mazdaspeed3 will surely handle better than that. Tack on 50hp or so more than the GTI and this is really not much of a comparison.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    Mazda in its own right is a good manufacturer. It's association with one of the Big Three, however is what is a turn off to me - especially given the Big Three's management philosophy of buying a company and trying to apply their own badge-engineering principles to it. Look at what GM has done to Saab, for example....

    The Mazdaspeed 3 better find a way to tune the engine so its peak torque comes on as broad as the GTIs (1750 to 5000 rpm), otherwise all that extra horsepower won't give it much of an extra advantage.

    Based on the articles written around the world - the GTI not only gives credit to the original GTI, it also re-defines the hot hatch segment (their words, not mine)..

    Instead of having a car that aspires to be like the GTI - I'd rather have the original.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Biggus, while I'm a big fan of the Mazda3, I gotta say on paper the upcoming GTI (already out in europe), seems to obliterate Mazda's cute little hatch. Engine wise, well there's no comparing the roughness of the 2.3 to Audi/VW's superb FSI 2.0. That engine is officially rated at 200 hp, but if you check dynos people are running with it you'll see they're getting 195 at the wheels! Which means the engine is really pulling about 220. BMW under rates their engines too.

    Beyond that Mazda has made strides in the interior. The Mazda3's interior is leaps better than the cruddy Protege interior but still it's filled with hard plastics, cheap leather (or worse, cloth) and lots of questionable bits. Nice for the level of car. Until one gets into a VW, then it's apparent Mazda (and everybody else) have much work to do to match those superb interiors.

    I can't comment on the handling (haven't driven the unreleased gti yet) but from past experience, Mazda's handle better than MkIV Jetta/Golfs. On the flip side, a Mazda at 80 mph drones and becomes tiresome while the MkIV could quietly cruise all day at hyper-legal levels. Supposedly the new GTI's handling is massively improved, while the car still has a closed up, comfortable feel. We'll see.

    One last thing, DSG. Having driven an Audi with DSG I admit I'm in love with that tranny. Best manual I've ever touched. Wow. Mazda's manuals are quick and fun. The DSG feels like heaven though. instant upshifts and downshifts. Just fantastic.
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    The Mazdaspeed6 hits peak torque, 280 ft/lbs, at 2000 rpm. It stays there till 6000 rmp. The two vehicles will use the same basic engine with the same basic setup. Granted the Mazdaspeed3 will be detuned, but Im sure the torque band will be comparable. Correct me if im wrong, but the new GTI makes 220 ft/lbs at peak. If all the reports are true, the Mazda3 will be making 255 hp (vs. 276 in the 6). This means that peak torque should be 240-260 at least. I'll take the 30 extra foot pounds and wider band even if it comes 250 rpm later than the GTI. But hey...this is all just speculative.

    On the subject of badge engineering, Saab and Mazda are two different beasts. In fact, Ford and GM are two different beasts. Granted, GM badge engineers almost everything and its been that way for years (Cavalier/Sunfire Yukon/Escalade ...). In Mazda's case, look at the Focus and Mazda3. They share engineering resources, but are two different beasts. The Mazda is aimed at performance while the Focus is aimed at a more general population. The MZR 2.3L engine block is common to both cars, yet they are tuned quite differently. Furthermore, look at Volvo. It still has its own personality. It still has its own agendas (read safety). What it did allow is for the Ford conglomerate to design an excellent frame common to the Focus, Mazda3, and S40 while cutting development costs. Granted there are exceptions to this such as the Taurus and Sable, but those are only fleet cars no one cares about anyway. For more info, look for an interview of Hisakazu Imaki, Mazda's CEO (I dont believe that I can post the location due to it coming from a competing site to edmunds)

    As stated in earlier posts, I have no real performance beef against the 2006 GTI. I just think that the current GTI is a dog and the 2006 will be soon eclipsed. In Europe by the Astra and here by the Mazdaspeed3. Just because the GTI was the first car to define the segment, does not mean that every hot hatch wants to be like the GTI. Its like saying that every rock and roll singer aspires to be like Elvis. Concepts change over time even if they still fall under the same genre. There is no way you can say that the previous generation GTI was the hottest hatch in the segment. Not in competition with the SVT Focus, Mini, or even the Mazda3. Not one of those cars aspired to be a GTI. None of those cars aspired to have vanilla styling, so/so handling, and lousy reliability. They probably inspired to do better than the GTI and in each case suceeded. Again this does not imply that they want to be a GTI.
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    "Biggus, while I'm a big fan of the Mazda3, I gotta say on paper the upcoming GTI (already out in europe), seems to obliterate Mazda's cute little hatch. Engine wise, well there's no comparing the roughness of the 2.3 to Audi/VW's superb FSI 2.0. That engine is officially rated at 200 hp, but if you check dynos people are running with it you'll see they're getting 195 at the wheels! Which means the engine is really pulling about 220. BMW under rates their engines too."

    Thats why the comparison is for the GTI vs the Mazdaspeed3

    Kudos on the interior though. Ive admitted in the past Im a fan of VW interiors.

    I really have few complaints about my Mazda3 at highway speeds. I regularly ride in a 2003 Cadillac STS and 2002 Audi A4 (Parents cars). I really cant tell much difference.

    Cant say anything about the DSG. Ive heard its good. Until then, the shifter on the 3 is the best I have ever used. Besides, I like to row my own gears. Thats half the fun.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    "...does not mean that every hot hatch wants to be like the GTI."

    Actually, almost everyone wants to be like the Focus. Even BMW's new 5-link rear suspension is suppose to be applying the similar trick as Focus's original 4-link Control Blades designed in the '90's. BMW, in fact, almost bought the Focus I's platform back then.

    The Mazda3 is really a Japanese-ized Focus II. Just like the '99 N.A. Escort (& even the early Kia Sephia) is derived from the '90 Protege.

    VW had to hire the original Focus engineers to design the Control Blades for the new Passat/A3/Golf/Jetta/Toledo, etc.

    So when the lemon N.A.-built Focus I became superbly reliable lately wearing Mazda-developed engines (per CR's trouble-spot chart for the '03/04 models), I grabbed an ST. While I complain about my ST's ride w/ SVT shocks & sway bars being a little too tight & the pure-hydraulic steering still being tuned a little too light, the Mazda3 is suppose to be even worse. & VW's pure-electric steering might be even worse than Mazda3's electro-hydraulic. What the Golf/Jetta really excels is the quietness & the ride comfort of the longer-spring non-GTI models. Mazda3's high dose of oversteer might not be much of a winner when comes to slippery unfamiliar twisty roads.

    Some one mentioned earlier about newer cars being "girlie". That's exactly how I feel about the Mazda3 & the recent VW's when comparing to my pure-hydraulic-steering '90 Protege & manual-steering Mk1 Jetta. No wonder BMW backed off from electric steering after the Z4 experimentation.

    As far as the looks of... The Mazda3 hatch looks like an SUV, so it's not a good-looking "car". The Golf still looks pretty boring. The '78 Scirocco Champagne Edition II still looks the best. :P
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Thats why the comparison is for the GTI vs the Mazdaspeed3

    My bad, lots of subscriptions. Still baffled why the press release had the mazdaspeed3 so slow on 0-60 runs. ??? Strange with all that power you'd assume the car would be more spritely. And going off the idea of FWD, we can't blame weight gain like the AWD setup on the Mazdaspeed6 (a car that is a major let down for me).

    Kudos on the interior though. Ive admitted in the past Im a fan of VW interiors.

    Mazda did a great job if you compare the 3 to the Pro. They're definitely way more upmarket now.

    I really have few complaints about my Mazda3 at highway speeds. I regularly ride in a 2003 Cadillac STS and 2002 Audi A4 (Parents cars). I really cant tell much difference.


    I'm sure I could as my friend's Mazda3 is fun but at 85-90 it's making quite a racket on the freeway.

    Cant say anything about the DSG. Ive heard its good. Until then, the shifter on the 3 is the best I have ever used. Besides, I like to row my own gears. Thats half the fun.

    And with a dsg you row your own gears too. Why do people think you don't? Yes there's an option for D/S but the paddle shifters and the manual mode are the real attraction of the tranny. The DSG GTI is 0.3 seconds faster to 60 than the manual GTI. That's precisely because the manual mode and dual clutches of the DSG allow you to shift faster than any human can slap from first to second. Clutch in, move lever, clutch out v. click, millisecond shift.

    Go drive an A3 DSG. You'll probably be amazed at how that tranny's so fast and yet liquid smooth. I'm rarely blown away by technology. That thing amazed me.
  • creakid1creakid1 Posts: 2,032
    I've heard Beemer's robotic box can do that if hold both levers in or something like that.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    I love the style of those early Giugiaro-designed Sciroccos - I had a 1975 (replaced the troublesome Zenith carburetor with a 2-bbl Weber downdraft and swapped the ignition points with an electronic ignition module) - and I loved driving it (even drove cross-country three times with it - especially through a December snowstorm in Utah) - until a tractor-trailer decided to occupy the same lane I was driving in... :(

    VWVortex has an early Scirocco as one of their featured cars. A modified VW 16v engine (from a 16v Scirocco) was retrofitted in that 1800 lb body. The car absolutely shreds!!! :shades: :shades: :shades:
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    As far as the road noise, you may be right. Living in downtown Minneapolis doesnt allow me to drive my car much past 70. There may be lots of road noise as those speeds, but when you are doing 90, do you really care?

    As far as the DSG goes, It just doesnt sound appealing to me. I enjoy using a clutch. I enjoy running through the gears, double-clutching, and having an excuse not to have other people drive my car. DSG may be faster than I will ever be, but I just dont see the excitement in hitting a paddle or blipping a stick straight up or down. Its undoubtably a great innovation, just not my cup of tea.
  • biggus3biggus3 Posts: 32
    "Mazda3's high dose of oversteer might not be much of a winner when comes to slippery unfamiliar twisty roads."

    I have never heard anyone complain about oversteer in a FWD car. After all, oversteer requires the rear wheels to get loose, generally from trying to drive them when they are being pushed to their limits. Did you mean understeer?
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    There may be lots of road noise as those speeds, but when you are doing 90, do you really care?

    Yes I do. 90 on the freeway is pretty normal for me,so it does matter. On road trips it definitely matters. i've had my 330i well over 100 for extended drives and the car was still quiet and smooth.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I have never heard anyone complain about oversteer in a FWD car. After all, oversteer requires the rear wheels to get loose, generally from trying to drive them when they are being pushed to their limits. Did you mean understeer?,/I>

    he probably does mean understeer. Regardless, with my Protege it is pretty easy to induce oversteer and with my old modded Jetta this was also true. Sure makes the cars more fun. :D
This discussion has been closed.