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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • Agreed! On all points.

    I actually like the GTO, just happen to like the Mustang better. Personal preference. Just jumped in to defend it against those that were claiming it was not comparable, quality sucks, etc.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    You didn't like the '07-'08 GTO sketch? While I agree, I wouldn't have been a fan of the return to the F-body design thought process, I did think the future model GTO sketch I saw was more in line with what the GTO should have looked like from the get-go.

    I would have been more inclined to purchase a GTO if it looked like that sketch.

    But, as you say, different strokes for different folks. And, yes, it's good that we have choices.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    Those are the most telling two pics I've ever seen posted.

    '90s styled GP......'04 styled GTO. Not much difference (although, I was a fan of the GP in '97...that was 8 years ago).
  • Quote "Considering the Mustang GT has just about sold out of '05s, and dealers are now selling their '06 model allotments, still at MSRP"

    This statement cracks me up. You say Ford has sold out of 05 Mustangs. Ok, maybe the manufacturer has sold all of them, but the dealers haven't. Also, Ford will be switching the assembly line over to the 06 model soon. So there aren't that many 05's left to be built.

    Just checked with Arizona's largest Ford dealer. Ernhardt Ford. They have 27 05 Mustangs and 7 are GT models. They have MSRP listed on them with a note of 'make offer'.

    The attraction is wearing thin on the 05 Mustang. Pulled into a Ford dealer to get a first hand look at the 05 Mustang and had all but two salespeople (two were with customers) come over and start talking about the GTO. Knowing how most salespeople are, I was impressed with how much they knew about the GTO. A couple of customers were even coming over and commenting on how it looked better in person than in the mags and were surprised by this.

    I think the biggest problem with the GTO is GM's negligence with marketing and advertising. For the most part, unless you were a gear head, you didn't even know about the GTO and that info was from the mags.

    Also, both the 04 and 05 GTO have dual exhaust. The 04 has a support pipe the goes between the two pipes, it looks like a crossover but is strictly structural. The 05 uses a common resonator housing that acts like a crossover to give that little bit to the torque curve, but is still a full dual exhaust. This resonator has two inlets and two outlets.

    Everybody has their own wishes, ideas, and financial capabilities. I didn't even look at the Mustang when buying. It didn't appeal to me and the styling doesn't fit my personality. I am more subdued and prefer the sleeper look. :-)

    Bob
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    G,

    First, chill. Don't get upset if I, and others, can nail you on just about every one of your posts. Be complete and this won't happen.

    Second, this is my last post regarding this, because you're still missing the point and I'm bored.

    Let's go back to the original post. You stated the GTO will hit 180, then 177, whatever. I said it couldn't stock, and if it did it would have to be modified. Next you posted a link to the Vauxhaul VXR, which I went to. There on the page was a picture of this VXR, gray-silver metallic paint job, has an EVO-type front end, different stance, more aggressive look.

    Hmmm, didn't look "stock" to me. Over to the left side was the article. And it stated the following (excerpt)...

    "Vauxhall has improved the suspension, transmission and brakes to cope with the extra power and added a pair of nostril vents in the bonnet aid engine cooling.

    The new Monaro VXR is the latest in Vauxhall’s new line of high-performance VXR editions. VXR versions have also already been added to the VX220 roadster range."

    Note that it stated "high-performance" VXR editions. Also, there are links on the site to the regular Monaro, as well as the Vauxhall XV220. Also, noted that it was modified, again, just because a car has a cd of .31, 400hp, irs, that it's going to do 180, whether you ungovernored it or not. Takes more to hit those speeds than you think. Got to keep the car done because it can/will catch "air" at those kinds of speeds.

    Then I checked another link to the plain-jane Monaro, and it's from that page where I posted the other information as a follow-up, straight from the site. Pretty good objective review of it.

    That's cool they're hitting 165+ in their GTOs. Wonder why their taking their cars to Germany to run. Why not use the VXR, it's already there.

    Nuff said, back to the forum
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    Bob....can't disagree with you about how Pontiac positioned the GTO. It almost seems that since it's initial rollout, the numbers weren't there, so Pontiac just abandoned it. Yes, they dropped a new engine in it, tweaked the brakes and added some split pipes and hood scoops for '05. But then, it seems like GM said...".if that doesn't turn things around, we aren't doing any more".

    Regarding Mustang production, at least the GTs, dealer stock orders as well as customer special orders are all filled for the '05 model year. The factory has about all the orders they can build. That means, whatever is in the pipeline now, the factory will take the rest of the MY to build them. You'll see dealer stock orders trickle in from time-to-time. Some of us in winter affected areas, when there was snow on the ground, got some discounts. But, in the warmer climates, it seems like the allotments are a bit higher because they can sell sports coupes year round. On the east coast, midwest, northern areas, Mustang GTs are hard to come by. Whenever one hits the dealer, it's gone. My dealer (in OH) has totally sold out of GTs and convertibles. Anything they get in in the way of '05 stock coming in, is already spoken for. They quit taking orders for '05 GTs and 'verts last month. They say their allotment of '06 GTs for the first 3 months of the '06 MY is also sold out. They expect that by June, the first 6 months of their '06 MY GTs will be sold out. They already have deposits on 3 Shelby's and they don't even have pricing on them yet. This is a large Ford dealer, too with lots of allotment.

    I don't think that the limited info we've shared would lead me to believe you are more of a "subdued" guy.....c'mon....admit it.....you're really an extrovert....;-)
  • image

    image

    And they say it's bad that a GT Mustang resembles the V6...
  • Just checked with Arizona's largest Ford dealer. Ernhardt Ford. They have 27 05 Mustangs and 7 are GT models. They have MSRP listed on them with a note of 'make offer'.

    Check Edmund's TMV, Still around MSRP for GT and not far below for V6.

    "Make offer?" How about invoice price, less 3-4k in rebates, less 5-6k GM card bonus bucks on a 2004 GTO!
  • andyandy Posts: 23
    i think there is a huge difference in the 2 red pontiacs. The grand prix looks cheap. The paint looks terrible. The wheel gaps are huge. The bumpers and trim look plasticky.

    The GTO is glistening, tight, purposeful, aerodynamic.

    I agree the overall profile is similar, but look anywhere near the details and you can see the GTO quality.

    Its like looking at a Audi A6 vs Ford 500.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    WOW!

    Talk about two extremely different perspectives of the GP and the GTO?

    I think the only way to readily tell the two apart is to look closely at the grill and the tailights of the GP vs the GTO........
  • i think there is a huge difference in the 2 red pontiacs. The grand prix looks cheap. The paint looks terrible. The wheel gaps are huge. The bumpers and trim look plasticky...

    That picture of the older Grand Prix was most likely taken recently, as I found it in a used car ad. After 5+ years it's not unusual for paint and painted trim pieces to look bad. Also, the wheel gaps look huge because of the relatively small wheels.

    I just wanted to show how much the two look alike overall. They look very similiar, alot more so than an A6 and a 500. At a glance it's almost hard to tell the two apart without seeing the headlights or tail lights.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    The Ford 500 could emulate a lot worse cars than the A6.

    I agree....the GTP does look awfully similar to the GP. Unfortunately, that GP is a design that's 8 years old.......
  • Ten years if you use Terry Math! (Real World Trade-In Values)
  • WOW!!!!!!!

    The only way to tell them apart is to look "closely" at the grill and taillights??? If that's the case gg you need to make an appointment with an eyedoctor ASAP. You should park the Mustang until you see him, you're not safe to be on the road with that eyesight! ;)
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Could you repeat that please.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I own a '98 GTP and an '04 GTO, both silver with black interior. You won't, but take my word for it, they don't look alike at all. If I had the technology I would post pictures of them. But then you wouldn't be able to tell which was the GTO and which was the GTP anyway.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    GTO does look awfully similar to the GP. Unfortunately, that GP is a design that's 8 years old

    If age is a bad thing, then what does it say about a 2005 Mustang that looks like one that's 38 years old?
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Hey! At ease there. I own one of those cheap looking Grand Prix's. Actually, you're comparing the paint jobs which is not a valid comparison. There is nothing wrong with the paint on Grand Prix's. You're comparing it to the GTO's colors which I think they even call them Electric. They are far too bright for my tastes, which is why I got the Silver. But the quality is the same.

    I don't care for the wheel gaps either. I even considered getting 70 series tires to help fill it up but went stock when I had to replace them.

    The GTO is "aerodynamic"? Are you saying the Grand Prix isn't. Come on, the Grand Prix has better ground effects. It's styled after their Nascar racer.

    And finally, yes the GTO is of higher quality all around but the Grand Prix has the highest quality of any other American car I've owned.
  • Quote: 'Unfortunately, that GP is a design that's 8 years old......'

    And the Monaro is 10 years old.

    So what are we trying to prove? A car that is released in the US that looks like an 8 year old US design, but in reality is a design that is 10 years old.

    So is the GTO actually an outdated design? Or was the design good enough to withstand 10 years of sales and still be viable. One advantage to this is that the car has been out there and has enough history to work out the major bugs.

    The 05 Mustang is based off of a, what, 67-68 model year car? Silly comparison, I know because of technological advances, but the design IS taken from a 38(?) year old design. But instead of being called outdated, it is called retro.

    Another factor that seems to be ignored is that the Mustang has been an ongoing model since it started. That means that the name has been visible and the fan following stays fresh with the new generations.

    Unfortunately that didn't happen with the GTO. It was not manufactured for 30 years. This has caused a lot of variation in what the GTO should look like. Everybody seems to be in this retro fad. Should they make it to resemble a 64 GTO, a 68 GTO or a 70 GTO? There was no trail leading to the current model to justify the style. What really surprises me is that Pontiac didn't take advantage of the similarities in body shape to the 70 GTO. They could easily have retro'ed the front facia to be similar to the 70 GTO and put similar hoodscoops and a spoiler and facia in the back to mimic the 70 model GTO. I think that might have helped the market appeal a bit as well as that silly 'Gotta Have I'. factor that seems so subjective. :-)

    Bob
  • casoncasecasoncase Posts: 48
    Right you are, bender. Are Mustangs made in China? I mean, they are as common as $49 DVD players made there. I'm renting part of my driveway for Mustang parking space -- there's no more room for them on the open road.

    On the other hand, both my '04 and '05 turn the heads -- all the time. I was even in my town's Memorial Day Parade last year with my '04: "Hey, there's the new goat -- rev it, rev it!" Isn't that part of what this whole ego/car thing is about? To each his own. What a country!
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    I was a GTP owner back in '97. I thought it looked good back then. Now, the design of the current GP/GTO has lost its luster....as has all of Pontiac, IMHO!

    As I mentioned before, if Pontiac had produced the "sketch" shown in MTs recent issue, I think the car would have been a hit. Instead, Pontiac has clearly struggled to sell it....even in reduced numbers and limited production.

    This isn't just an indictment of the GTO, but all of Pontiac. It's almost like they stopped designing anything after 1997....just reworking the same thing from '97 on (and that design isn't one I'd want to emulate as a classic, by any stretch).

    The Mustang, on the other hand, took design cues of the most popular Mustang years and incorporated them into the current design. The result was the sales hit they have currently. Personally, I hope to see a Mustang on every corner. That means that Ford will continue to develop it and bring out more models (like the Boss, Mach and Bullitt). All the current Mustang popularity tells me is that a lot more people agree with me in that the Mustang is a very good looking car.....and is very identifiable as nothing but a Mustang.

    If parade participation is the basis for what looks good, then I'd have to say that old or new, Mustangs are always participants in the ones I've seen around here.

    It's interesting to watch people as you pass them in the '05 Mustang. Whether they are in their cars or walking along the side of the road, the experience is always the same. They see the Mustang and stare, then you watch their heads snap back to stare even more as I pass.

    I usually have to add an extra 10 minutes to any grocery shopping or trip to the gas station in order to let bystanders gawk and talk about the car. It always brings a smile to others wherever I go (I know it can't be my good looks they are staring at).

    Bottom line, the Mustang has been a hit, regardless of what parameters are used as the measuring stick.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    I usually have to add an extra 10 minutes to any grocery shopping or trip to the gas station in order to let bystanders gawk and talk about the car. It always brings a smile to others wherever I go (I know it can't be my good looks they are staring at).

    You know, I have the same problem with my GTO. I briskly accelerated away from a light last night (didn't chirp the tires, didn't exceed the 45 mph speed limit). Got in the left turn lane at the next red light. Car caught up to me in the left lane, and the driver was staring at my GTO so intently that he let his lit cigarette fall out of his mouth!

    I stopped to pick up pizza last Sunday night and just about the whole staff at the pizza place had to come out and look at my car. I've come out from the grocery store to find people standing there looking at it (can kinda creep you out), waiting to ask me questions. As long as the police don't give me a second look when I'm speeding (try THAT in a Mustang), I am very happy.

    As I have tried to say before, YOU may not like the looks of the car. Doesn't mean that others don't, or aren't attracted to it. It's all subjective. Glad you like your Mustang. I love my GTO. I don't care what I paid for it (I can afford it is all that matters). I don't care if it's a sales success (the '05 is selling at or above Pontiac's expectations - less than a 60 day supply, on track to sell out before the '06's arrive in December, your comments notwithstanding). I'm happy there aren't GTOs on every corner. To each their own.

    --Robert
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    This is from a GTO owner on another web site. He has had his 162 mph speed limiter removed, but I don't think he's had any extensive modifications to his car (i.e. no heads/cams, supercharger, et. al.)

    image
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    I agree with you. All that matters is that you like what you bought.

    I have a lot of respect for the GTO. I do bemoan the fact that GM hasn't got their head in the game, though.

    My choice was the Mustang when comparing the two. I may have gone another route had GM put more creative effort into the GTO.

    But, we like our respective car purchases. That's all that really matters since we're the ones writing the checks (and I just wrote another big one to Uncle Sam, yesterday).
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I can verify the deep discounts at least on the '04 Cobra and here in San Jose because I almost went for one. I know they were going for as little as $30K which is barely more than a loaded GT. I thought it would be pretty cool to be sitting on 390hp. But in the end, since the shifter is in such an awkward position (you can read that complaint by Mustang owners in their forum) and Pontiac Dealers regained their sanity and started dropping that dealer markup crap, I went for the GTO.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Hi graphicguy. So you went for the Mustang. Well congratulations, you got yourself a fine car.

    About this post though. I'm surprised since you are a knowledgeable guy and not prone to making rash statements like I am.

    R&T claims 4.9 seconds for 0-60? Not a chance. Didn't MT claim 5.1 seconds in their evil comparison test. Edmunds only managed high 5's and felt after break in that it might make it to the mid 5's. That is probably reasonable for a loaded Mustang with leather interior (possibly with a Shaker in the trunk. That's gotta slow you down). 4.9 seconds is M3 territory (and that's slow for the 05 GTO). I'm sure if any M3 owners saw your post they would be laughing their heads off. But you're also right that a few tenths of a second are meaningless. They are both hellafast.

    I know you've driven the GTO's and I haven't driven the 05 Mustang so I will defer to you regarding the steering, shifting and clutch. But, "the Mustang felt much lighter on its feet"? Hello! That's because it is lighter. What, 400lbs more or less lighter. And that's one of our points. The GTO is solid, well built, loaded, and a bit heavy. Pretty nimble for its weight though isn't it?

    Interior? "Considering where the General is coming from in their interior design, the bar was set low to begin with". Say what? It's exactly the opposite. It should be "the interior of the new Mustang (if you get the leather) is impressive considering the old fox body interiors are the cheesiest in its class. You won't get anyone to back you up with that claim.

    The seats in the GTO are killer aren't they? I sat in the back seat once and it was very comfortable but I'll never go back there again and we all know why that is. What's up with that 'mouse fur' as you call it? I don't care for it but it beats hard plastic. Saying the HVAC controls look like they're from a Sunfire is giving them way too much credit. The trunk is indefenseable. I can't see how putting the gas tank in the passenger compartment can be safer than underneath the car. We'll have to wait and see what happens when someone gets rearended.

    Build quality? I'll take your word for it that build quality in your car is high. It's certainly an improvement from the fox body. Speaking of orange peel, just recently I was at a local dealer and on one of the 05's side view mirrors there was severe orange peel. I pointed it out to the salesman and he had nothing to say about it. That's not poor quality, that's poor quality control. Overall I'd give the GTO the edge in quality though. Gotta go with those Australian union guys over American union guys.

    Price and resale I don't really care about. After reading this part of your post I think I'm getting dizzy. Airbags, rebates, GMAC financing, MSRP, discounts, Ford x plan, model allotments, I think I'm lost. Once again though I think that after a few years the GTO will be worth more. Remember, there's 180,000 '05 Mustangs out there. I'll give it three years. That's when a lot of people dump their cars for something new. And then it will be a function of supply and demand. And I think there will be excess supply. I think it would be interesting to see what proportion of the 180,000 are GT's. Wouldn't it be cool if there were 12,000 GT's sold. Then it truly would be a draw. Personally I would like that.

    I sure hope you are right about the need for additional rebates for the GTO. I need that if I am to upgrade to an 05.

    Other than that your post was pretty cool and interesting.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    Gotta jump into this one again. Andy, glad you are a GTO fan. But don't put the Grand Prix down just to elevate the GTO. Listen up. This is the new world order. The GTO is higher quality than the Grand Prix. The Grand Prix is higher quality than the Mustang. And who cares after that. Got it?

    Anyway, "the bumpers and trim look plasticky". Hello? They are plastic! You probably weren't around in the 70's when Pontiac pioneered the use of plastic for fenders and bumpers. The reason for that was so that when you bumped into something at 3mph you didn't crumple up your front end or rearend and ending up with thousands of dollars of damage. The insurance companies loved that and began giving discounts for cars with such features. Other car companies followed suit so pretty much all passenger cars have at the least, forgiving bumpers. So in this instance, Pontiac was the innovator and the rest of the industry followed suit. They deserve cudos for that.

    Now to you bender. "The wheel gaps look huge because of the relatively small wheels." What I want to know is what kind of car do you drive that you think 16 inch wheels are small.

    And "I just wanted to show how much the two look alike overall." What you showed is that you need glasses too.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,134
    sputter.....I've seen the car rags with different numbers on measuring both the GTO and the Mustang GT.

    I've seen as low as 4.8 0-60 and 13.3 in the 1/4 for the '05 GTO from C&D. All the tests I've seen for the '04 GTO had worse numbers than the '05 version (understandably).

    R&T got 4.9 0-60 secs and 13.5 in the 1/4 for the Mustang GT.

    All those numbers were the best I've read about.

    For example, MT did 5.1 secs and 13.5 in the 1/4 in their test of the Mustang GT. They also got 5.0 secs 0-60 and 13.3 secs for the '05 GTO.

    Point is, the performance differences between the two are too close to be significant in my estimation.

    I did mention that I did like the seats in the GTO for their side bolstering. I like the Mustang GT's seats for their lumbar support. I like both, but for different reasons.

    I like the build quality on both. I will say that the GTO is one of GM's best efforts I've seen in quite a while. I hadn't been in many Ford or GM products for awhile. I can't consider my RX8 ownership experience to be indicative of Ford's build quality since it was built in Hiroshima. I'm not going to get into the debate of UAW vs Aussie workers and their ability to build cars. That will turn into a political discussion. At all costs, I'd rather stay away from any sort of political debate.

    I've been nothing but pleased with the build and function of my Mustang GT. It's very solid. I've heard of a few issues here and there regarding some issues a few people have had regarding how slow the gas tank takes fuel and some of the Shakers "skipping", but I've experienced none of those issues with mine.

    Since I just turned 1,000 miles on my odo this weekend, I opened it up a little yesterday. It pulls hellaciously strong through the entire rev range....right on up to red line. Trac control allows for some wheel slip, but put the rear end "back in line" if it gets too sideways. The trac control is pretty unobtrusive and is very comparable to what I experienced with the RX8's stability control. With trac control off, you can burn'em as far down the road as you want. A little feathering of the clutch and I got some nice "hook-up" off the line....without trac control. If I were going to track it (which I'm not), I think I could get a good launch when the light went green with little effort.

    A NOTE TO ALL....THIS WAS DONE ON A CLOSED SERVICE ROAD WITH NO OTHER CARS AROUND......

    I agree. There are way too many pricing permutations and variables to get into any meaningful correlation. I can only state what I could have bought either car for. If I were to try to buy a Mustang GT today (if I could find one), I doubt very seriously if any dealer would have honored my X plan pricing. They are just way too scarce in my neck of the woods and the prospect of getting an '05 GT is diminishing by the day since Spring hit. When I ordered mine, we were in the depths of one of the worst winters in recent memory. Dealers weren't quite sure yet whether they had a "hit" or a "miss" on their hands with the '05 Mustang at the time. With snow piled high, temps in the teens and a lone customer in their showroom, they didn't hesitate to make my X plan deal on the Mustang GT. In hindsight, knowing what they know now, I doubt they would have made that deal. Matter of fact, when my Mustang GT came in almost a month ago, I was fearful that they'd retract their X plan deal since it was clear the deal they made 2 months previous was, indeed, well below what the market had turned into for the GTs.

    Looking back to February, I was without a car since my RX8 was totalled. If it would have taken 3,4 even 5 months to get my Mustang GT, as it has been for the majority of people who ordered theirs, I was thoroughly planning on getting my 2nd choice, the GTO, as they've been plentiful around here.....for both the '04 and '05 models (although I would have opted for the '05 GTO....even with the big price disparity between the '04 and '05).

    Fact is, both cars offer a unique and exciting driving experience....one that can't be duplicated today in Europe or Japan.
  • sensaisensai Posts: 129
    sputter.....I've seen the car rags with different numbers on measuring both the GTO and the Mustang GT.

    I've seen as low as 4.8 0-60 and 13.3 in the 1/4 for the '05 GTO from C&D. All the tests I've seen for the '04 GTO had worse numbers than the '05 version (understandably).

    R&T got 4.9 0-60 secs and 13.5 in the 1/4 for the Mustang GT.

    All those numbers were the best I've read about.

    For example, MT did 5.1 secs and 13.5 in the 1/4 in their test of the Mustang GT. They also got 5.0 secs 0-60 and 13.3 secs for the '05 GTO.

    Point is, the performance differences between the two are too close to be significant in my estimation.


    Ugh, I swear this guy is going to drive me crazy. Once again, graphicguy, you left out the huge trap speed difference. Your comparing times from different magazines, which is useless since that means the cars were tested in different conditions (not to mention the stupidty of magazine racing). Did you say you were in Columbus, OH? Going there next week on company business. I won't, but I should drive instead of fly so I can show you why the 05 GTO will smoke the 05 Mustang at any speed. I am not trying to sound that the only thing to cars is their performance, but your refusal to admit the Mustang is soundly outperformed by the GTO, because you happened to find a few magazine numbers that were close, is mind boggling to say the least.
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