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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • "The new GTO looks like every other late model Pontiac."

    True, And the 1964-1966 GTO looked like every other Pontiac as well too !! They were rebadged Lemans. The GTO did not get it's own body style until 1967 or 1968.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,213
    Looking at the entire market.....in the past few years, GM abandoned the F-bodies saying they could no longer make a business case to sell V8 coupes. That left the Mustang, all alone in the segment. While, I'm not a big Fox platform fan, Ford still sold plenty. With both GM and to a lesser degree, Chrysler, pulling out of the market, the Mustang was there all alone.

    Enter the GTO in '04. Disappointing sales (scheduled to sell 18K, sold 14K or thereabouts). Some say it was the styling that was the cause of the "slow debut". Some way it was slapping a GTO badge on an Australian car. Some say it was the handling/weight of the GTO. Who knows? Point is, when GM entered back into the market in '04, they weren't met with good sales numbers.

    Entering '05 .....new S197 platform for the new '05 Mustang. The Mustang sold roughly 140,000 '04s. Of that 140K, about 42K of those were of the V8 variety. Ford plans to sell 150,000 '05s. A few months into the new year and it's clear Ford has a runaway success. They up production to 190,000 units. Of that, about 57,000 are V8 GTs. About 13,000 people who wanted an '05 Mustang GT, couldn't get one. Their orders were cancelled. So, it's reasonable to say, Ford could have sold 70,000 '05 Mustang GTs.

    Whether it was the looks, the performance, the handling, the steering, or a combination of all the ingredients, it's clear that Ford got the recipe right with the '05 Mustang. I don't think any of us Mustang owners would debate that the Mustang equals more than the sum of its parts. It's visual appeal stops people in their tracks, even with so many now on the roads. I can't go to the grocery store, stop for gas, park in a parking lot, without people gathering around the car to talk about it. I can't tell you how many people have said they wanted one, or tried to get one, but couldn't. Once I get in and start it up, it grabs attention of all those around me. I've honestly, never seen anything quite like it before.

    The public's buying dollar is what defines the success, or lack of success in the marketplace. As best I can tell, in two model years ('04 & '05), GM will sell roughly 30,000 GTOs. Ford has sold almost twice that amount in one model year (and could have sold more).

    Chrysler has taken note of this phenomena and brings out the Charger (not my cup of tea....but they want a piece of the pie, too). Plus, there are rumblings there will be a Dodge Challenger in the marketplace in the next few years.

    This takes nothing away from the current iteration of the GTO, but it's clear GM wants back into the segment based on the sales of the Mustang. They release some sketches of an '08? GTO that they're working on.

    I say if they "tweak" those sketches a bit. Improve the handling, steering and shifting, they'll have a "hit" on their hands. I don't think it would be unreasonable to think they could sell 50K, 60K, maybe even 70K GTOs if they follow through on their plans. Needless to say, the next step GM takes with the GTO (will they offer an '07?....will there really be an '08?) is critical if they want to mine some of the success the Mustang has enjoyed.
  • "The public's buying dollar is what defines the success, or lack of success in the marketplace. "

    The 2002-2005 Monaro (GTO-LuminaSS-/Vauxhall etc sold 4x better world-wide then Holden had predicted/hoped for ! It was the #1 selling sports coupe in Austrailia too. Sounds like a success. Esp for a car that was barely advertised here. There will be NO 2007 GTO, probably in 2008.

    I like classy, understated, elegant styling. However contrary to what most say...I notice that my BLAND GTO does turn heads all the time; sometimes from the general public, but a lot is from people somehow associated to the car scene or that own other sport cars. I get questions at the gas station, shopping centers, valet parking, red lights, so on and so forth. Invariably I get the following question: Is it true that GTO is really fast? I have had at least a dozen people go out of their way to comment on how SWEET the car is.I have also seen people spin their heads 180 degrees at stop lights to see what in the world was making that sweet rumble. I have several blow their horns at stop lights to get me to roll down my window just to shout out , sweet man, that car is sweet.

    The whole point i think people are forgetting is that the GTO isn't an all out muscle car. Everyone reviews it like that, but they forget the car was directed as a euro looking, high powered and comfortable sport coupe with nice roomy seating for 4. If it was all flash and bang, but no luxury inside, like the new Mustang, I i would have dropped it and never considered it in the first place.

    The best part is that people are shocked when I tell them it has 400 horse. They think I'm lying. Funny.

    Like one of the old GTO ads used to say - if you don't get it - don't get it.
  • you think the GTO has sale problems; The Toyota Supra was such a poor seller in 96-97 a large portion of supras were sent back to Japan. Don't see any GTO's going back to australia, yeah GTOs didn't move like hotcakes but what non super car - coupe does? Except Mustang-etc.

    The Z cars, 300ZX were cancelled in 1997 for LACK of sales.
    The Supra was cancelled in 1999 for LACK of sales

    Already the '04 GTO has outsold other first year GM performance cars '84 buick grand national and '94 impala SS. :P
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,213
    I think that was part of the problem.....not enough people "get" the GTO. Again, not a slight, but I believe you have to throw out what is sold in Austrailia, or anywhere else in the world, that the iteration of the Manaro sells in. North America is THE market everyone wants to sell in. It's big and consumers here have the money to buy what they want. Can't say that in just about anywhere else in the world. America is the biggest market (and most competitive) in the car buying world.

    Looking back, the Supra, the RX7, etc had priced themselves out of the market. They were sterling sporting machines, but couldn't sustain enough sales volume to be viable in the States.

    I'm one of the "customers" that GM should be shooting to snare. They couldn't. I've already made my own reasons known. It's clear. GM has to bring out something that looks & handles as good as it goes. The Mustang has already proven that formula. This really gets back to what's ailing Pontiac and all of GM. They don't seem to have a clue as to what it is that turns potential customers into buyers.

    For all our sakes (at least those of us who are fans of V8 muscle), let's hope GM can get it "right" in '08 when/if they reintroduce another GTO.
  • "This really gets back to what's ailing Pontiac and all of GM. They don't seem to have a clue as to what it is that turns potential customers into buyers"

    Ford is doing just as poorly as GM. They have lost the same or more marketshare then GM. Their NEW Ford 500 family 4 door sedan has been a sales failure as reported by CNN-money. Thats a more critical market then 2 door perf. car market. GM still has the V8 Muscle Vette which sells very well, esp for a car that starts at $45k !

    "I'm one of the "customers" that GM should be shooting to snare. They couldn't."

    Ford couldn't snare me either. Mustang is a nice car, but GTO feels moer upscale-luxury like-comfortable. And when pushed to it's limits handles just as well as Mustang.

    :D
  • jontyreesjontyrees Posts: 159
    Further comment on the "it sells great so it must be better" school of thought:

    - is Brittney Spears a better artist than (insert your preferred low sales singer here)? Jacob Dylan sold more copies of one album than his dad has sold in his entire career. Does that make him "better"?
    - is Wonderbread better than fresh baked bread available in every supermarket?
    - is American Idol the best show on TV?
    - is Miller Lite a better beer than Bass?

    Mass market popularity really isn't a very good measure of worth. Popularity doesn't make something bad either.
  • "Mass market popularity really isn't a very good measure of worth. Popularity doesn't make something bad either."

    I agree.

    Your forgot one...
    - Is Titanic the greatest movie of all time because it's $600 million gross record has never been beaten.
  • http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0505_spied01/

    This is supposedly the new 2008 GTO, it will use the same 400hp LS2 as at least the base engine. To me this is UGLY. I prefer the current shape. My opinion. Looks like bad visibility out of windows too. Time will tell Ironic that the guy that designed the current Monaro will be designing the new GTO.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "Further comment on the "it sells great so it must be better" school of thought:...."

    You guys are missing the point; not sure if it is intentional or what....

    All the comparisons between supposedly the 'same' products include the fact that they are marketed to different demographics.

    Jacob Dylan is marketed to a different music fan than his dad.

    Wonderbread is marketed to a different type of consumer than fresh baked bread from the bakery dept.

    American Idol is marketed to a different audience than would rather watch the History Channel.

    Miller Lite is marketed to a different beer drinker than Bass.

    HOWEVER -

    If Miller Lite had 50% more fans than Bud Lite, that would be a valid reason for saying that, amoung inexpensive domestic lite beers, Miller was 'better'.

    If American Idol had 50% more fans than......I dunno....The Bachelor?.....that would be a valid reason to say than amoung trash TV reality programming, American Idol was 'better'.

    THEREFORE, when the automotive segment is "RWD V8 powered domestic 4 passenger coupe", I think it IS valid to say that sales prove that more people IN THIS SEGMENT prefer the Mustang.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,213
    There are two cars in this market segment right now....the Mustang GT and the GTO. That is the RWD V8 muscle coupe.

    I think the vast majority of people who are in the market, in this segment, know that these two are the competitors. For whatever reason, some won't go near the other to make a fair comparison. It maybe because of styling. It may be because of drivetrain. It may be because of brand loyalty.

    What is clear, is that given the choice, most are picking the Mustang GT over the GTO by over a 3-1 ratio. If you include the amount of people who wanted the Mustang GT, but couldn't get one, that ratio goes up to 4-1.

    The marketplace is always the final judge. To some of you, the GTO is great. That's a good thing. You like the car you bought. But, 3-4 times more think the Mustang is the way to go in the same segment.

    If only a few people think any movie is great, does that make it a great movie? If a lot ov people really like the same movie, it will be considered "good".
  • Elias,
    We are going “round and round,” but isn’t that the point of a Stang vs. GTO thread? In the end, I’m happy we both chose a great performing pair of modern muscle.

    Gottabgto,
    My opinion on the GTO’s handling was, as I stated, my opinion. However, I am not alone. Many reviews have echoed my comments and we all have driven a GTO. As for the Mustang’s prevalence on the street, why does that matter? I choose a car based on how much I like the looks, handling, and performance. Buying a car to follow the pack or vice versa to run from the group are different sides of the same coin. Personally, I have plenty of aftermarket mods to “personalize” my pony. In the end, I’d rather look like other Mustangs than be constantly mistaken for another Pontiac.

    Blackflag3,
    The Mustang GT according to Edmund’s goes for about $3,000 less than a GTO on average. That means they are in a similar price range. Numerous reviews, magazine articles, and this forum compare/contrast the two plus the Dodge Charger, because they compete for similar market share. I agree price may be part of the sales difference, but it’s not enough to justify the difference in Mustang GT and GTO sales, especially considering the 1,000s of GTs that Ford couldn’t deliver or the people that “settled” for a V6.

    Sputterguy,
    The caveat here was two cars produced to appeal to similar markets. Comparing the Camry/Maxima to the Mustang is not what we were discussing. The real analogy is if the Camry outsells the Maxima, then the market has subjectively decided it is a better car. The same thing applies with the Mustang GT vs. the GTO.

    Gxpgtodanman,
    Again, the reason most buyers and reviewers don’t like the GTO’s styling is that not only does it have no link to the past, but it also looks like ever othery modern Pontiac. The Mustang whether V6 or GT is distinctly Mustang, past and present.

    What I can’t understand is regardless of our subjective, enthusiast opinions of our autos, how the overwhelmingly better selling of two cars isn’t the better car. Whether it’s looks, handling, performance, mojo, or some esoteric combination thereof…a car that objectively sells better is a better car.

    And I’m spent…
  • "considering the 1,000s of GTs that Ford couldn’t deliver or the people that “settled” for a V6. "

    Who in their right mind that wants a V8 Mustang, would settle for the V6 model? Not me. To each their own. In my case I would wait for demand and price to drop. I never buy a 1st yr car because of that and any possible bugs, etc.

    "how the overwhelmingly better selling of two cars isn’t the better car. Whether it’s looks, handling, performance, mojo, or some esoteric combination thereof…a car that objectively sells better is a better car. "

    Mustang starts at $19k GTO $32k, Big Dif, Graphic. Of course Stang is going to sell better.
    One example of better product NOT selling better for you...The old Beta vs VHS. Beta was the better system/better picture, but VHS outsold it and won out. Benz AMG E55, doesn't sell as well as GTO but is better. Again, goes to show you that the BETTER car/product doesn't always sell better !!

    "Again, the reason most buyers and reviewers don’t like the GTO’s styling is that not only does it have no link to the past, but it also looks like ever othery modern Pontiac. The Mustang whether V6 or GT is distinctly Mustang, past and present. "

    Being as though the last GTO was made in 1974 as a rebadged Nova, we would never know how a GTO would have looked-evolved-linked today, right? As said before, 1964-1966 GTO looked like every other Pontiac too. Didn't get it's own true body until 1968. The new Mustang is distinctly RETRO-Past not present. Not too original. After this Retro generation has run it's 3 to 5 yr course, where does Ford go next? Fox Body retro? LOL.
  • "A lot of these people just like the Mustang because other people have it, have told them it's cool, etc. In other words, these are not car savvy people. They just want a popular car, and sure, the Mustang is a good looking car. I believe that this segment makes up a large percentage of the Mustang drivers."

    I have to agree on that. . Don't forget that 66% of those Stangs are BASE V6 model, nothing special. Certainly not fast or performance car. A certain % are Hertz Rental cars too. It starts at $19k so it will sell better then a car that starts at $32k

    "Conversely, I think it would be a pretty safe bet to say that the majority of people driving GTO's know a little something about cars and have selected the GTO after very careful consideration. "

    Agree as well. JD PWR survey people rated GTO as most appealing Sporty car, NOT the Mustang!GTO are ALL PERFORMANCE cars that come FULLY loaded std with a 400hp V8. Limited production. Where as only the GT V8 is a performance car.
  • The Mustang has always outsold the GTO, even 1964 to 1974 when supposedly the GTO was a better looker then todays. The most GTO's ever sold was 89,000 in a year. This GTO is a better sales success then 1972 to 1974 models!

    1974 Mustang with a WIMPY 90 hp 4 cyl or optional 110 hp V6 sold 400,000 copies.
    1974 GTO with std 200 hp V8 only sold 10,000 copies.

    Another example and proof of the better car not selling more. Nova based GTO was a superior/roomier/much faster car then the Pinto underpowered Stang.I would take '74 GTO ANYDAY over a weak-small '74 Stang.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    I like your BetaMax vs VHS analogy. Whether it was marketing, or product placement, or out selling to video stores, VHS became dominant even though it wasn't the best product.
  • sputterguysputterguy Posts: 383
    The Mustang was cheaper than the GTO back then also.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,213
    Guys....I've made the sales comparisons based on the numbers of Mustang GTs sold vs GTOs....not V6 Mustangs.

    There's no doubt in my mind that many people bought a Mustang based on looks alone. However, the vast majority that have bought a Mustang GT, are like all of us......enthusiasts of the breed.

    It's clear that Ford could have sold around 70,000 MUSTANG GTs, if they could have been produced. They couldn't. As it turns out, Ford sold nearly 60,000 '05 Mustang GTs....in one model year. GTOs numbers are about 1/2 that in two model years.

    So, the wild popularity of the Mustang GT has been written about ad nauseum. I doubt more than a few "settled" for a Mustang V6 if what they really wanted was a GT. And, since they continue to be so hard to come by (even with 60,000 owners), I'd say that those of us willing to wait (sometimes for many months) to get one, it was worth the wait.

    I, for one, came close to pulling the trigger on a GTO if I couldn't get a Mustang GT. I'm glad I waited. But stating that the GTO was my #2 choice, is still high praise.

    Quite frankly, I can't make the connection between video tapes or movie popularity to the Mustang vs GTO discussions. There really are no similarities to cars vs videos.

    Considering the way some dealers marked up the Mustang GT and Ford's price increases, to the point where the price was negligible to that of a GTO, with the Mustang still wildly outselling the GTO, price wasn't the issue. Again, the public has spoken with their dollars. We are the final judge.

    People are still clammoring for the Mustang GT (and to a lesser extent, the V6). GTOs are still "on the lots". If all someone wanted was a muscle coupe, all they have to do is wander to the local Pontiac store. They're there for the asking. It's clear, what's in demand is the Mustang GT....for all the previous reasons we've all dissected time and time again.

    I hope GM understands their customers better with the GTO's next iteration since I think the competition is good for both cars. But, from what I'm hearing on this thread, not many of you are enamored with the '08 sketches you've seen. Personally, I think it's a step in the right direction. If I were the product manager for the '08 GTO, I'd make my first priority to put it on a diet, put a better shifter in it, and tweak the suspension. That would really give GM a clear winner as to what, we the enthusiasts, are looking for.

    Give us a smartly styled car, that handles well, that can back all that up with performance, and you have a winner. That's exactly what the Mustang development team did. They struck a chord with those of us who had written off both GM and Ford as capable of putting a world class performance car on the market which is within striking distance of a price most can afford.
  • Courtesy of a poster over on the GTO board - here is an article that fits right into this board:

    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0508/31/F01-298066.htm
  • "Courtesy of a poster over on the GTO board - here is an article that fits right into this board:
    http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosconsumer/0508/31/F01-298066.htm"

    Conclusions
    Their muscle-car roots are remarkably similar, but the 2005 Ford Mustang GT and the 2005 Pontiac GTO hold great appeal for disparate reasons.If you're more into style and aesthetic appeal, the Mustang is the clear winner -- and it costs considerably less than the GTO.

    If pure performance is the name of your game, and your ego is secure enough to drive a virtually anonymous design, the GTO simply walks away from the Mustang in nearly every measurable category -- as long as you're also willing to pay a premium for the privilege of owning one.
    Overall winner: GTO
    :P :P

    I'm sure we will hear yet again how the Mustang is better because it sells better/more again which is starting to get old fast. It's an uneducated public out there, thats why.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "I'm sure we will hear yet again how the Mustang is better because it sells better/more again which is starting to get old fast. It's an uneducated public out there, thats why."

    In your opinion, what makes one car 'better' than the other in any particular segment?

    My opinion - it depends on the segment. For mainstream family sedans, the 'better' car may be the one with the most room, with the most features/reliabilty/economy for the least price. For trucks it might be the most towing/hauling capacity.

    And for sports coupes, it is some combination of performance and style.

    However, for EACH segment, the manufacturers certainly understand what defines 'winners' and 'losers'. And the common yardstick regardless of the segment is sales. How else do you explain the demise of the F-body despite the fact the Mustang was soundly beaten from a pure performance standpoint for better than a decade? The F-body may have been 'better', but it's still dead.

    You guys seem to be of the opinion that many (most?) Mustang buyers are simply buying the car BECAUSE it is popular. However, I'm simply stating that it's popularity is simply an indicator (IMO) that Ford struck a 'better' balance between pure performance, handling, and style ('better' in the sense that it appeals to more people).

    The point is that there really is no "better" between these two. If a buyer were interested solely in performance and doesn't really care for audacious style, looking for more of a 'sleeper' capable of waxing unsuspecting victims in stoplight wars, then the Mustang would NOT be the right choice. For such a buyer, the GTO makes lots of sense.

    However, some of the "uneducated public" understands that life is not a constant series of stoplight races. Perhaps the "uneducated public's" ego is strong enough that we don't need to constantly prove ourself with burnouts and the ability to claim the biggest motor.

    Maybe we prefer to look better 100% of the time rather than lose a stoplight race 0.1% of the time.
  • Conclusions
    Their muscle-car roots are remarkably similar, but the 2005 Ford Mustang GT and the 2005 Pontiac GTO hold great appeal for disparate reasons.If you're more into style and aesthetic appeal, the Mustang is the clear winner -- and it costs considerably less than the GTO.


    'If pure performance is the name of your game, and your ego is secure enough to drive a virtually anonymous design, the GTO simply walks away from the Mustang in nearly every measurable category -- as long as you're also willing to pay a premium for the privilege of owning one.
    Overall winner: GTO"


    "I'm sure we will hear yet again how the Mustang is better because it sells better/more again which is starting to get old fast. It's an uneducated public out there, thats why

    The preacher has stated his case mainly using sales as the measuring stick as to which car is better, thusly his conclusion is, the Mustang is the better car.
    There lies the rub, the word "better" Anologys have been made so I won't get into
    making another one. He likes his Mustang, we like our GTO's.
    Both cars have their attributes which have been pointed out in this debate.
    The fact is the GTO is back and I have one, am happy with it, and that's whats important to me, not how many Mustangs are sold.
  • "In your opinion, what makes one car 'better' than the other in any particular segment? "

    High quality Materials and workmanship. Room, visibility, comfort, powertrain, ride quality, brakes take the cake over styling to me. Unfortunately most of the uneducated public judge the car by looks rather then whats underneath/interior/driving it, etc. It depends on the buyer on which car is better. We all have reasons for chosing GTO or Mustang.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,213
    rorr....agreed. All 60,000 of us uneducated Mustang GT owners are wrong about what a muscle coupe should be.

    Apparently, GM knows they've got work to do on the GTO before it's ready to be successful in this segment. They're, at the very least, stopping production in '07 to ready a more competitive "Mustang fighter" (as Motor Trend put it) on the streets. According to the same MT article, Pontiac realizes they have to do something with the suspension, too since it looks like they are going to be redoing it. I still say, trimming 300 lbs from the GTO along with more expressive styling, could cure a lot of it's ills.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "High quality Materials and workmanship. Room, visibility, comfort, powertrain, ride quality, brakes take the cake over styling."

    You forgot the little "IMHO" at the end..... :)

    Haven't heard too many complaints about lack of room in the Mustang (although the GTO wins hands down on rear-seat room). Visibility out of the Mustang could be better (although it's not nearly as bad as the '71-'73 flatback models). Comfort? Haven't heard any complaints there either.

    Powertrain? Hmmmmm, I don't know that most rational people who were NOT into stoplight drag races would have any complaints about the Mustang's powertrain. Although I have heard some complaints about the shift linkage in the GTO. Of course, if you desire an automatic this is not an issue.

    Ride quality is exceptionally subjective. Some genuinely prefer the GTO, some the Mustang.

    Brakes? I haven't heard any complaints about the Mustang brakes though I have heard that the GTO brakes could be a bit 'mushy' feeling (although the actual brake numbers are very good.....for a car as heavy as the GTO)

    Look, I'm not trying to talk ANYONE out of a GTO. They are excellent cars. I do however take exception to insinuations that Mustang buyers are, for the most part, the 'uneducated public'. Just because some people may prefer a LOT more style (IMO) while sacrificing a LITTLE straight line performance (again, IMO), is no reason to label them 'uneducated'. They just have a different set of priorities.
  • "The preacher has stated his case mainly using sales as the measuring stick as to which car is better, thusly his conclusion is, the Mustang is the better car.
    There lies the rub, the word "better" Anologys have been made so I won't get into
    making another one. He likes his Mustang, we like our GTO's.
    Both cars have their attributes which have been pointed out in this debate.
    The fact is the GTO is back and I have one, am happy with it, and that's whats important to me, not how many Mustangs are sold."

    I agree, as long as we are all happy with our purchases, whether it be GTO or Mustang, thats cool. Now that gas is now over $3 a gallon in NJ here, this will be interesting to see how well either car sells.
  • I agree, your right. I shouldn't have labeled Mustang owners as the uneducated public. Unfortunately some people do buy a car just because it's popular/good looks. I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying a Mustang either. As you said, it's subjective and we have diff. priorties. They are both excellent choices.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    I just bought you a virtual beer. :P Drink up, before it gets warm.

    For once, I agree with absolutely everything you said in that last post. Many people do buy a car just because of it's popularity/good looks. And GM did get almost everything right with the GTO. I just wish it looked a bit more distinctive (and shed a couple hundred pounds).

    If I were to ever buy a GM car, the GTO would be it.
  • Thanks. As sad as this sounds, actually one of the reasons I bought the GTO was because it was NOT a GM car. Made by Holden which is a subsidiary. Build quality and interior are better then anything else GM makes except Vette or Cadillac and they are lot MORE $$.

    I wished they would bring Holden over here. Nice cars and all RWD. My GXP is ok-nice, but does NOT have the build quallity or interior of this Monaro-GTO. Not even close.
  • jontyreesjontyrees Posts: 159
    Regarding the style/visual appeal of the GTO - just this morning yet another young lady leaned into the window of my black/red '04 and said "I LOVE your car!"

    Of course, she was only about 9yrs old and had just opened the door for my two boys to clamber out and go to their elementary school, but hey, I'll take any compliment. That's about the 6th little kid that has said the same thing - maybe I can sell it to one of them in about 7yrs time.
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