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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO



  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    Hmm. You are Pontiac marketing. Let's launch a 350 hp RWD sports car primarily in the Midwest, in the middle of winter, follow it up with virtually NO marketing or ads, and let our dealership body throw $5-$10k of ADM on the price. Said dealership body generally also won't allow test-drives without a signed purchase contract. Keep building cars until October 2004 (I'm sure the 2004 Mustangs were done months before that, and they didn't have to go halfway around the world to get to their dealers), don't offer any incentives until late July, then panic when they're not selling. Also, drop hints all year long to enthusiasts (and confirm in August) that "next year's model" will have more HP and oft-requested hood scoops. And wonder why you can't sell them?

    '05 marketing is no better but they're still selling their planned 1k/month, with minimal incentives, thank you very much.

    Weren't Ford dealers having a problem getting rid of the '03-'04 Cobras? I've seen several Mustang enthusiasts crowing about paying under invoice for them, and dealers having them on their lots well into the next model year...

  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    For the umpteenth time here.... the GOVERNED spd of the GTO is 158mph, Mustang is 147mph NO governor!! .The GTO will do 180 with the governor removed, Someone already posted that they saw a picture at 177mph. If you have read some of the other forums there are people in Germany that do cruise at 165+mph on autobahn in their GTO. I would NEVER try this.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    benderofbows wrote.......(By the way, even the old body style 2004 Mustangs were all gone before the Brand New 2004 GTOs!).....

    Incorrect, the 2004 Mustangs were NOT all gone before the new 2004 GTO, not sure where you got that info because in my area near NY City here....there are still NEW 2004 Mustangs on the Ford Dealer parking lot by me with heavy incentives that still haven't moved yet. I have seen advertisements in my local paper with the big markoffs on them. In fact one dealer still has a silver 2005 V8 sitting there for 3 weeks, just saw it again this morning!

    As for the 2005 GTO, my dealer told me that you can NOT order one anymore either! You have to wait for the 2005's enroute to the USA since they are still building the

    Yes, GM is selling their planned 1k 2005 GTO's per month with minimal incentives. Only the $1k rebate which just came out on April 1st.
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    jae5 writes..... it doesn't stay dual from the cat-back. It's separate until the end, not a true dual exhaust to me and to many others for that matter......

    here it is FOR THE LAST TIME!!! .... the 2004 GTO has REAL, TRUE DUAL EXHAUST! The pipes do NOT come back together. Check your info before you post.

    Mechanically, the exhaust system on the 2004 GTO consists of two completely independent exhaust paths that run from the manifolds to the outlet pipes, ensuring there is no mixture of exhaust gases.

    Through the efforts of engineers on two continents, a true dual exhaust system was developed and acoustically tuned like a finely crafted woodwind instrument, yet enables the heavy-breathing, low-back pressure needs of the 350-horsepower LS1 V8 powerplant.

    Believe what you want, here are the facts!
  • gunitgunit Posts: 469
    Here is the reason why the Mustang is $5k cheaper then the GTO.... Saw this on another site... funny but true...

    the Mustang is less expensive because Ford cut a number of corners building that car.

    "The performance of the GTO clearly blows the Mustang away. The engine, transmission and chassis aren't even close. Think of the GTO as a Cobra -- while the Mustang is just a GT. And with this Cobra -- you can still bolt a puffer on it for astronomical output. You can do the same with the Mustang -- but, seriously, the 4.6 Romeo platform has always been weak.

    The interiors aren't even close, either. The Mustang's is small and cheap. It's gauges are HORRIBLE. The seats are awful, awful, awful. No lateral support. And the Mustang's steering wheel doesn't telescope -- so if you've got long legs -- prepare to assume an arms-out gorilla-like driving position. Sure, the Mustang's got a bigger trunk and fold-down back seat -- but the GTO is the ROOMIER backseat and ROOMIER car.

    That said, the manual shifter in the Stang is light years ahead of the flubbery, rubbery unit in the GTO. Then again, a $225 shift kit fixes that. Automatic tranny GTO is same or faster then manual shift GTO or manual shift Stand, LOL! Funny!

    There are other, subtle differences in the GTO that clearly state that this car is a totally different, much more refined car than the Mustang. For example, the build quality of the GTO is fantastic. The fit and finish of mine is as good as BMW and better than Mercedes. Reflected surfaces down the entire side of the car, across the fender, door and quarter panel don't vary one iota -- even across seams. That is incredible. This car has already been compared by Motor Trend to the AMG $70k benz. Never see a stang compared to that car!! Then there's the design of the door. The GTO has glass in frame windows. These seal better and reduce wind noise. They last forever, too. The Ford? Just a big, dumb rubber seal that's going to whistle with wind noise in about 18 months. Truly an inferior design.Ask some mid 1990's Mustang owners about that... seals wearing out flapping etc.

    Bottom line? Ford has cut all kinds of corners to bring the Mustang in at a lower sticker price. The solid rear axle chassis. The infrerior interior. The cheap door seals. The GTO? It costs more -- and the extra effort shows.

    Consumer Reports on Mustang interior..........But the materials look and feel LOW-GRADE with thin, hard, plastics throughout. Some cubby doors open and close AWKWARDLY, and their hard surfaces lack the soft, rubberized cover found on other vehicles in this class!

    The Mustang LACKS the finesse of the best sports cars in this price range including the Subaru WRX and Mazda RX8.

    There is NO DUMBED down CHEAP version of the GTO like there is with the V6 secretarial $19k stang. Your $28k stang looks just like someones base $19k stang. IT will get worse with the GT500 for $40k, when someone can buy the base V6 for $19k and look the same. No exclusitivity on Stang. Enjoy seeing them a dime a dozen like Accord/Camry/taurus of the world. Retro look will fade soon. Ford's best was to copy their 1967 or 1968 stand and make it new again? They couldn't come up with a new orig. design? LOL! To each their own

    Sales do not make one car better then another, if that was the case a few yrs back the Ford Taurus would be the best/most desirable car because it sold the best. How absurd!

    I do not feel bad for buying a GTO as many stang owners have tried to say. I got the better quality car. better ride and to me that was worth the extra $$ which I could afford.

    As they say, you get what you pay for, and that is why the GTO costs more. Getting drivetrain from a $45k to $55k Vette for under $35k, bargain!

    Those are my final comments on this thread. Goodbye! Enjoy what you brought.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    This is one of the "hottest" threads on Edmunds. People on both sides of the fence have got to be pleased.

    Here we go.....(again)......I've driven the '04 & '05 GTO and own the '05 Mustang GT.
    Anyone who tracks any of these vehicles (with the exception of professional trade rag testers) is going to vary widely in their abilities. Further, different tracks and track conditions will yield different results. Track the same car, on different days, with different weather conditions, different numbers again.

    So, all we can go by is what the professional testers tell us, as it's their job and probably the most reliable source of this information since they are the most experienced.

    Here's what I've seen/read.....

    Best time for an '05 Mustang GT was from R&T. Results? 0-60 in 4.9 secs...1/4 13.5 secs. Best times for an '05 GTO (since that's the one with the LS2) was from C&D. Results? 0-60 in 4.8 secs.....1/4 in 13.3 secs. Top speeds on both are well over what anyone, outside of a professional tester, on a closed track will ever approach. WIll any of us (including me) amatuers get on a track will have too many variables (as stated before) to gleen much information from. Fact is, the differences to me are too small to matter anyway (a tenth in the 0-60 and a couple of tenths in the 1/4)....particularly, on the street. On the street, the numbers are all pretty meaningless. They are so close as to not matter. Both cars are very fast. I'll call it a draw to keep the peace.

    Steering, shifting, clutch all go to the Mustang GT. You can quote C&D. I can quote Edmunds on what they thought. What matters is that I felt the Mustang felt much lighter on it's feet than the GTO. IRS of the GTO vs solid rear of the Mustang is/has been a "non-issue". I've found the job Ford did on the suspension to be wonderful....regardless of the technology used to yield the end result. Shifter in the GTO feels rubbery compared to the positive action of the Mustang's. Clutch in the Mustang is very sweet with a smoothness that the GTO's clutch action couldn't approach. Steering of the Mustang is quick and positive. GTO's felt slow and ponderous by comparison.

    Styling? As many have pointed out, that's in the eye of the beholder. I like the Mustang's styling. Apparently, there will be 180,000 Mustang buyers that feel the same way vs less than 30,000 GTO buyers (Pontiac hopes). Some like the "look" of the GTO. Personally, I think it's one of the GTO's biggest downfall. Take a look at the "sketches" MT displayed (the one with the Shelby on the cover) of what the GTO might have been in it's next iteration (but won't since it won't be built), and Pontiac was on the right path. We'll never know, though since the GTO is falling by the wayside.

    Interior? Again, depends on who's doing the judging. Is the GTO the best Pontiac can do? Yes, without a doubt. Considering where the General is coming from in their interior design, the bar was set low to begin with, however. But, I much preferred what Ford did with the aluminum interior and with the guages/ergonomics. I did like the seats in the GTO. That said, I like the Mustang's seats, too....for different reasons, though. Back seat? Both are tough to get into in either car. Once back there, I can see where the GTO's would be more comfortable. I wasn't concerned with the back seat since I don't plan on putting anyone back there and I certainly didn't plan to ride in 2nd class, in either car. Trunk space was more of an issue with me with the GTO. With or without the Shaker 1000, trunk space in the Mustang far outshines the GTO's trunk.

    Build quality? Good in both. I don't know that anyone can complain about either. I was a bit turned off by the "mouse fur" on the interior of the doors of the GTO and the GTO's HVAC controls felt like they came from a Sunfire. Mustang's controls felt smoother in their operation. Both are built solidly with nary a squeak nor rattle....even over rough road surfaces. Body panels line up with tight gaps both inside and out. Paint was lustrous and even on both with little in the way of "orange peel" effect. Stereo in the Mustang is better with the Shaker 500 (better lows/highs and more powerful) over the GTO's Blaupunkt. Neither is going to win over the "aftermarket" crowd who will want to tweak the stereos to their own liking.

    That brings us to price and resale. Like for like regarding equipment levels, Mustang costs less. In most cases, much less. Drop the side airbags from the Mustang since they aren't available on the GTO and you've got an MSRP of somewhere around $27,500. I'll stick to the '05 GTO pricing since the '04 GTO is a year old, so it wouldn't be a like for like comparison. There's a $1,000 rebate on the GTO if you finance it through GMAC (not sure, but I think that's the qualifier for the rebate). While I can beat GMAC financing rates by a substantial amount, let's run with the GMAC terms to get the rebate. GTOs are being discounted. So, thinking that they will sell for $31-$32K, deduct the GMAC rebate, and it should be selling for around $30K-$31K.

    It's no secret that Mustang GT's are selling for MSRP and above, but for this exercise, let's use the MSRP number of $27.5K. At best, the price advantage goes to the Mustang GT by about $2.5K-$3.5K. If you qualify for any special pricing plans from either GM or Ford (like I do) and the price differential becomes even larger. If I finance through GMAC (which I wouldn't), I can buy an '05 GTO today for `$30.3K less the $1,000 rebate, or $29.3K. That's still about a $2K price advantage for the Mustang GT selling at MSRP. I bought mine on Ford's x plan for $25.5K, so the price advantage over the GTO swells to nearly $4K, in the Mustang's favor.

    Resale? Considering the Mustang GT has just about sold out of '05s, and dealers are now selling their '06 model allotments, still at MSRP, I'd say that Mustangs will hold their value well for the next couple of MYs, at least (if not longer once the Shelby hits as competition to the 'vette and Mach, Bullitt and Boss models hit).

    18,000 '04 GTOs were supposed to be produced. Since they were slow sellers GM only brought 16,000 GTOs over to NA. Even though they've been heavily discounted and dealers are still trying to move them, they are still lingering. GM reduced the number of '05 GTOs they would produce to 12,000 units based on the above. It's not clear whether they'll actually bring over that many since, while sales have been better, they still are selling below what GM wants. Last figures I saw, GM has sold around 3,300 GTOs in '05. 1/3 of those were '04s. That means that GM has sold around 2,300 '05 GTOs through March. Based on that, they certainly don't look like they will sell 12,000 '05 GTOs that they are hoping to sell without more major rebating. In short, resale doesn't look good for the GTO considering that '06 will be the final
  • There is NO DUMBED down CHEAP version of the GTO like there is with the V6 secretarial $19k stang. Your $28k stang looks just like someones base $19k stang. IT will get worse with the GT500 for $40k, when someone can buy the base V6 for $19k and look the same.

    A lot of the information in your post makes it clear that you haven't had any real product experience with the Mustang, but this is the most evident. A base V6 looks just like a GT? How about the unique grill and fog lights? GT badging? (badges mean alot to you GTO guys because they are all that separates a GTO from a 1999 2-door Grand Prix). And the GT500- Have you even looked at pictures of one of these? Obviously not, if you think it looks like the V6 model. C'MON.

    Sales do not make one car better then another, if that was the case a few yrs back the Ford Taurus would be the best/most desirable car because it sold the best. How absurd!

    They do, when you compare competing cars.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    badges mean alot to you GTO guys because they are all that separates a GTO from a 1999 2-door Grand Prix

    Your creditability with ANYONE just went right out the window there, bub. The GTO is RWD, produced by Holden in Australia. The Grand Prix is FWD and made either in the U.S. (pre-2004) or Canada (since 2004). There is a slight visual resemblence in the front - just like the Mustang front end, to me, has a passing resemblance to the Explorer!

    Look, each side has their biases. THERE IS NO EMPIRICAL "BETTER" CAR - it's totally subjective as to which is the better car. You look at the factors and buy and drive what you like. That's what I did!
  • Calm down, we were talking about styling. I should have included that (a reference to styling), I did not know it would be interpreted that way (that people would think I meant a GTO is exactly the same car as a Grand Prix; it didn't have a V8, either).

    But anyways, It's common knowledge and frequently asserted that the GTO looks generic Pontiac.
  • hammen2hammen2 Posts: 1,313
    It's common knowledge and frequently asserted that the GTO looks generic Pontiac

    Just like the 1964 GTO looked just like a Tempest, except for hood scoops and a big motor.

    Is a family resemblance a bad thing? Look at the Mustang - it has a family resemblence to the Explorer, the Freestyle, the Five Hundred et. al. (not as much the Focus and Crown Vic). Ditto Caddy - you can tell the CTS, STS, SRX, DTS et. al. are Caddies - the CTS and STS are very close - is that a bad thing?

    Is a car being a "sleeper" rather than a "hey, look at me" a bad thing?

    I would NOT have purchased a GTO if it looked like a Firebird/Camaro (or a Mustang, for that matter). I didn't care for the supposed 2008 GTO sketch I saw. Don't want anything to do with that look. Don't want the police to notice me cruising at 80 mph on the freeway - let them pull over the Mustang/Camaro/Firebird/Corvette instead :-)

    Different strokes for different folks. That's why we have choices!
  • Agreed! On all points.

    I actually like the GTO, just happen to like the Mustang better. Personal preference. Just jumped in to defend it against those that were claiming it was not comparable, quality sucks, etc.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    You didn't like the '07-'08 GTO sketch? While I agree, I wouldn't have been a fan of the return to the F-body design thought process, I did think the future model GTO sketch I saw was more in line with what the GTO should have looked like from the get-go.

    I would have been more inclined to purchase a GTO if it looked like that sketch.

    But, as you say, different strokes for different folks. And, yes, it's good that we have choices.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    Those are the most telling two pics I've ever seen posted.

    '90s styled GP......'04 styled GTO. Not much difference (although, I was a fan of the GP in '97...that was 8 years ago).
  • Quote "Considering the Mustang GT has just about sold out of '05s, and dealers are now selling their '06 model allotments, still at MSRP"

    This statement cracks me up. You say Ford has sold out of 05 Mustangs. Ok, maybe the manufacturer has sold all of them, but the dealers haven't. Also, Ford will be switching the assembly line over to the 06 model soon. So there aren't that many 05's left to be built.

    Just checked with Arizona's largest Ford dealer. Ernhardt Ford. They have 27 05 Mustangs and 7 are GT models. They have MSRP listed on them with a note of 'make offer'.

    The attraction is wearing thin on the 05 Mustang. Pulled into a Ford dealer to get a first hand look at the 05 Mustang and had all but two salespeople (two were with customers) come over and start talking about the GTO. Knowing how most salespeople are, I was impressed with how much they knew about the GTO. A couple of customers were even coming over and commenting on how it looked better in person than in the mags and were surprised by this.

    I think the biggest problem with the GTO is GM's negligence with marketing and advertising. For the most part, unless you were a gear head, you didn't even know about the GTO and that info was from the mags.

    Also, both the 04 and 05 GTO have dual exhaust. The 04 has a support pipe the goes between the two pipes, it looks like a crossover but is strictly structural. The 05 uses a common resonator housing that acts like a crossover to give that little bit to the torque curve, but is still a full dual exhaust. This resonator has two inlets and two outlets.

    Everybody has their own wishes, ideas, and financial capabilities. I didn't even look at the Mustang when buying. It didn't appeal to me and the styling doesn't fit my personality. I am more subdued and prefer the sleeper look. :-)

  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205

    First, chill. Don't get upset if I, and others, can nail you on just about every one of your posts. Be complete and this won't happen.

    Second, this is my last post regarding this, because you're still missing the point and I'm bored.

    Let's go back to the original post. You stated the GTO will hit 180, then 177, whatever. I said it couldn't stock, and if it did it would have to be modified. Next you posted a link to the Vauxhaul VXR, which I went to. There on the page was a picture of this VXR, gray-silver metallic paint job, has an EVO-type front end, different stance, more aggressive look.

    Hmmm, didn't look "stock" to me. Over to the left side was the article. And it stated the following (excerpt)...

    "Vauxhall has improved the suspension, transmission and brakes to cope with the extra power and added a pair of nostril vents in the bonnet aid engine cooling.

    The new Monaro VXR is the latest in Vauxhall’s new line of high-performance VXR editions. VXR versions have also already been added to the VX220 roadster range."

    Note that it stated "high-performance" VXR editions. Also, there are links on the site to the regular Monaro, as well as the Vauxhall XV220. Also, noted that it was modified, again, just because a car has a cd of .31, 400hp, irs, that it's going to do 180, whether you ungovernored it or not. Takes more to hit those speeds than you think. Got to keep the car done because it can/will catch "air" at those kinds of speeds.

    Then I checked another link to the plain-jane Monaro, and it's from that page where I posted the other information as a follow-up, straight from the site. Pretty good objective review of it.

    That's cool they're hitting 165+ in their GTOs. Wonder why their taking their cars to Germany to run. Why not use the VXR, it's already there.

    Nuff said, back to the forum
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,099
    Bob....can't disagree with you about how Pontiac positioned the GTO. It almost seems that since it's initial rollout, the numbers weren't there, so Pontiac just abandoned it. Yes, they dropped a new engine in it, tweaked the brakes and added some split pipes and hood scoops for '05. But then, it seems like GM said...".if that doesn't turn things around, we aren't doing any more".

    Regarding Mustang production, at least the GTs, dealer stock orders as well as customer special orders are all filled for the '05 model year. The factory has about all the orders they can build. That means, whatever is in the pipeline now, the factory will take the rest of the MY to build them. You'll see dealer stock orders trickle in from time-to-time. Some of us in winter affected areas, when there was snow on the ground, got some discounts. But, in the warmer climates, it seems like the allotments are a bit higher because they can sell sports coupes year round. On the east coast, midwest, northern areas, Mustang GTs are hard to come by. Whenever one hits the dealer, it's gone. My dealer (in OH) has totally sold out of GTs and convertibles. Anything they get in in the way of '05 stock coming in, is already spoken for. They quit taking orders for '05 GTs and 'verts last month. They say their allotment of '06 GTs for the first 3 months of the '06 MY is also sold out. They expect that by June, the first 6 months of their '06 MY GTs will be sold out. They already have deposits on 3 Shelby's and they don't even have pricing on them yet. This is a large Ford dealer, too with lots of allotment.

    I don't think that the limited info we've shared would lead me to believe you are more of a "subdued" guy.....c'mon....admit're really an extrovert....;-)
  • image


    And they say it's bad that a GT Mustang resembles the V6...
  • Just checked with Arizona's largest Ford dealer. Ernhardt Ford. They have 27 05 Mustangs and 7 are GT models. They have MSRP listed on them with a note of 'make offer'.

    Check Edmund's TMV, Still around MSRP for GT and not far below for V6.

    "Make offer?" How about invoice price, less 3-4k in rebates, less 5-6k GM card bonus bucks on a 2004 GTO!
  • andyandy Posts: 23
    i think there is a huge difference in the 2 red pontiacs. The grand prix looks cheap. The paint looks terrible. The wheel gaps are huge. The bumpers and trim look plasticky.

    The GTO is glistening, tight, purposeful, aerodynamic.

    I agree the overall profile is similar, but look anywhere near the details and you can see the GTO quality.

    Its like looking at a Audi A6 vs Ford 500.
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