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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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Comments

  • " The Mustang is an American icon whether you like it or not."

    So is the GTO. The original Muscle Car. All of them were V8 only. No 4 or 6's.

    "Drive one, you'll like i!."

    I did drive one, pretty nice car, but there is more to a car then just looks. IMHO the GTO road nicer, more luxury like, more comfortable seats, usuable back seat for family and it's interior was nicer then Stang. Basically it's a 4 passenger Corvette for $10k - $15k less.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "The GTO just looks too much like a rebadged Cavalier or Grand Am."

    "The Mustang looks like a copy of 1968 Mustang, not too original."

    Well, consider this: I was at a car show this weekend (sponsored by the Mustang Club of Austin) which had many, many '65 thru '70 model Mustangs. They still look good. Heck, there were even a couple of 1st gen Camaros in attendence. They still look good.

    Been to many car shows featuring Cavaliers or GrandAms?

    The point being - having style which evokes a classic is generally regarded as being a good thing. Having style which evokes a 10 year old entry-level car is not.

    If the standard reply to "the GTO looks like a GrandAm" is going to be "oh yeah? The Mustang looks like a '68 fastback", well then I guess all I can say is "yep, sure does. Ain't it great?"
  • "Been to many car shows featuring Cavaliers or GrandAms? "

    What does that have to do with Mustang vs Gto? I have been to many shows featuring the 2004 and 2005 GTO. Sorry, but it commands a lot more attention then you think. I have had just as many people coming up to me at the shows as the 2005 Stang owners..

    "The point being - having style which evokes a classic is generally regarded as being a good thing"

    Sorry the old Mustangs are not classics and either are the old GTO's. They are antique/collector cars. A Classic is a Generally high-priced when new and was built in limited quantities car made in 1948 or prior !!

    The Mustang was a high production car for the masses, thus it will never be termed a Classic by the Classic Car Club of America. Most likely the GTO never will be either.

    Time will tell with the Mustang retro design. Look at what happened to Fords Retro Tbird. Hot seller with big dealer markups, "Got to Have" then by the 3rd year they couldn't give them away, thus $10k off MSRP and they finally cancelled it.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    Okay, now you're going to parse words.

    The point being that the old Mustang 'look' (generally regarded as a 'classic look' by most non-GM owners) is generally regarded as a 'good' thing. Or at least a few hundred thousand people in the first year seem to think so.

    On the other hand, a 'look' which generally brings to mind a mid-90's GM sedan is generally regarded less favorably. You can spin this all you want, but (and here I quote a GM owner of past Pontiac musclecars and current owner of a C5 Corvette), "Ford absolutely killed Chevy with the new Mustang. It makes me sick that GM just rolled over on 'em with the Camaro."

    Well, you could argue that the GTO is not the Camaro. In most respects it's a much better car. BUT, GM cannot attract large numbers of young first time buyers looking for a performance automobile at a reasonable price with a GTO. The Camaro had that ability. To replace the Camaro in their lineup, and to fill this requirement, they have the Cobalt (featured prominantly as the 'little brother' to the Corvette in Chevy marketing). Yep, that's right. Chevy replaced the Camaro with the Cobalt. And it is precisely BECAUSE GM 'rolled over' to Ford that we are left comparing the Mustang to the GTO, rather than the Mustang to the Camaro.

    Tbird comparison - are you seriously putting forth the opinion that the new Mustang is just a flash in the pan, destined for market withdrawal in just a few years? Interesting.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    And to further your remarks, the Mustang has been a perennial best seller from day one. It would be foolish to think that the Mustang, of all cars, is a "flash in the pan." :confuse:

    And on top of that, in every review that you read about the Mustang, the reviewer basically sums it up with everything that was "wrong" with the Mustang has been made "right" with this generation.

    In my opinion, if GM had made a retro Camaro/Firebird from the same period, it would've been extremely hard for folks to decide whether to buy a Mustang or one of the GM twins.

    gxpgtodanman also comments that the Mustang's design isn't original (or something to that effect). How is the GTO's design original? It looks just like its siblings. A Mustang will never be mistaken for anything other than a Mustang. That can't be said of the GTO.
  • The Fbody was cancelled because it wasn't selling well. Sales kept declining year after year. Where as Mustang sales stayed even or increased. So I can't totally blame GM for killing Fbody.

    The Cobalt is NOT replacing the Camaro, it's replacing the old Cavalier. The Cobalt SS outperforms the V6 Mustang. Runs mid to high 14's. The facts are that the young first time buyers are going into the Front wheel drive compact sports scene, which the Cobalt SS should do very well in. They aren't buying F body or Mustangs anymore or I should say as well as they used too. The avg age on Mustang buyers is higher then it was 10+yrs ago. All of the V8 Stangs I have seen are older people. Same with GTO's, except me.

    My mistake on Mustang to Tbird comparison. I think at some point Stang sales will cool off. Probably still be good for 100k+ a year though.
  • The Camaro only had the ability to attract younger first time buyers because of the entry level V6 models which accounted for nearly 66% of sales just like the Mustang.

    The V6 Mustang just like V6 Fbody these younger 1st buyers are buying is NOT a performance vehicle. It's all show and no go. Hyundai Tiburons, Civics, RSX;s cobalts are just as fast if not faster then V6 stang. And their engines are more refined then the truck Explorer/Ranger V6 found in Stang.

    That said the avg young 1st time buyer can NOT afford a V8 Mustang that starts for $25k and approaches $30k. Let alone a GTO. The insurance is horrendously high on Mustang V8 if you are young. Just like Fbody. Where as the Cobalt etc is much cheaper.

    For me in my early 30's, the 400hp GTO was almost $250 cheaper per year then V8 Mustang to insure. Same coverages, etc.
  • Most of the people that make fun of the GTO for looking like a Cavalier or Grand Am are usually young people. Most of it is only in cyberspace, never usually to my face. Except this one time I had been told at a car show it was a cavalier and it was some punk kid, early 20's. Yep it's my 400hp Cavalier, LOL! When I asked what he drove, he didn't answer, hmm.... I have respect for anyone's car, New mustang is nice, I just happen to like GTO better.
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "The Fbody was cancelled because it wasn't selling well."

    In other words, abandon that market rather than fix what's wrong with the product. And don't say that the market was going away since, as you pointed out, Mustang sales kept even or increased.

    "The Cobalt is NOT replacing the Camaro, it's replacing the old Cavalier."

    With the V6 Camaro, GM had only 1 competitor in the inexpensive, RWD performance coupe market (Mustang). And an essentially captive audience (domestic buyers) to sell to.

    Now, with the Cobalt SS, GM has a minimum of 1/2 dozen very strong competitors in the FWD sporty coupe market, some offering better performance, and the target audience is predominately import buyers.

    And this makes sense? So the Cobalt SS outperforms the V6 Mustang. At what point will GM realize that 1/4 mile times do NOT define how a car will do on the market. You say the Cobalt doesn't replace the Camaro. Actually, I agree with you. But if that's the case, then NOTHING replaced the Camaro and, as I've pointed out, that simply means that GM abandoned that market COMPLETELY to Ford. Sad.

    "The avg age on Mustang buyers is higher then it was 10+yrs ago."

    Really? Where have you found that little stat? I seem to remember a big argument in this very thread from GTO fans that were making the case that the Mustang is essentially a high school kids car suitable more for high schoolers and college students whereas the GTO was an 'adults' car.

    I don't have any stats at hand either, but I'm of the opinion that the base Mustang has a better chance of making a dent in the import dominated sporty coupe market than the Cobalt (or old Mustang) because it offers distinctive styling. And style SELLS with that market.
  • Cobalt is intended to be big in the small car market. Draw some of those kids away from Neons,Civics etc. Time will tell. Cobalt like the Cavalier will outsell the Mustang. 250k to 300k Cobalts estimated However they don't really compete head to head. Probably have to compare Focus to the Cobalt. Ford Cancelled the Focus SVT, not enough sales !!

    GM has made a lot of mistakes, hopefully they can learn from them before they are too late.

    A lot of the HS students that are getting new cars around me are getting mostly WRX/Impreza, civic si, SRT4/Neon, Evo etc. Even some Cobalt's. Knowone is really getting a Mustang. I thought I read that the avg mustang owner was older today, can't remember.

    You are right, style does sell in some cases.

    However IMHO there is more to a car then just styling. I look at the whole package, interior, ride, comfort etc. To me the GTO is perfect in all those categories and has it nailed except styling.
  • The import dominated sporty coupe market necessarily don't have that much style either. Civic or Scion or Neon? Just as bland as my GTO if not more so. I thought Focus hatchback was downright ugly, my opinion. I think it will be hard to convince a lot of those young folks to buy a American car. They like many others percieve the American cars to be bad and foreign good. False Stereotypes, the US cars have done a lot of catch up in the past 10 yrs.

    Dif topic, but Accord/Camrys are among the DULLEST/boring looking cars on the road, YAWN...yet are #1 sellers? Style isn't always everything.
  • Gxpgtodanman,
    my comparison to BMW was that both have an understated type of style and performance. BMW's is elegant, timeless; myself, most people I've talked to and EVERY single article I've read say the GTO's is too bland and lackluster. (But as you say, these are just subjective opinions.) Unlike Ford with the Mustang, it seems GM took a great performing Australian sports sedan and gave it a famous American muscle car name. Its styling seems like an afterthought, and like the Dodge Charger, only representative of the classic model in name. Since the last GTO was made in 1974, how can a 30 year gap be a great history of quality and performance? Both the Mustang and the BMW have been around for most of the last three decades, so both have become household names. Not only does the new Mustang have award-winning styling, but it seems as if Ford has eliminated the Pony’s flaws and greatly accentuated its strengths.

    As for the stylistic comparison to other more basic Pontiacs/GM, I'm not sure why this seems to offend some GTO owners. I have no problem knowing my 2005 GT looks remarkably like a more common, basic V6. I’m willing to bet the vast majority of objective observers regardless of their age will say the GTO looks very much like a Grand Am, Cavalier, etc. As for their being another 189,999 people on the road with 2005 Mustangs, I could care less. It’s a great car and its sales numbers are representative of that. I don’t base my buying decision on what others are buying or not buying. I can use the aftermarket to personalize my car and the large numbers of other Stang Drivers guarantee available parts and comrades-in-rubber burning.

    Rorr handled the 1968/2005 Mustang copy comment exceedingly well….much better than I could at least. I agree though the GTO should command attention. It is a great performing, rare car. Whether Mustangs are technically Classics are not is simply semantics. I and thousands of Americans would die for a Non-Classic Mustang GT, Shelby, GTO, or Charger.

    Bland cars like the Civic, Accord, and Camry sell well, because they are reliable "automotive appliances." Their buyers do not expect much performance or wow factor; they just want dependable, cost effective transportation. There are many sport coupes with style, however. Scion is ALL style if you talk to young buyers as are certain new options from Pontiac and Saturn (Solstice and Sky). Most sports car buyers, however, want performance with looks. This is the connection that I find lacking in the GTO and abundant in the Mustang.

    Elias,
    I agree the GTO offers a great deal of performance for a great price. No one can dispute it will beat a stock Mustang GT, but the difference is not significant to me. Nor is it to every comparison I've read. But again, to be fair, give me 3-4 grand to even the price delta and a "supped" Mustang will outperform a GTO.
  • kevm14kevm14 Posts: 423
    But if that's the case, then NOTHING replaced the Camaro and, as I've pointed out, that simply means that GM abandoned that market COMPLETELY to Ford. Sad.

    Gee, think this may have happened before? Hint: B-Body.
  • kevm14kevm14 Posts: 423
    You are right, style does sell in some cases.

    However IMHO there is more to a car then just styling.


    Ever since I was, oh I dunno, in 6th grade, I have always said I'd rather have a car that looks like a junker but goes fast (sleeper) than a car that looks "cool, yo" but goes slow (I think we know who this is).
  • This GTO is true to form in name and function. Big V8 engine in a 2 door rear drive midsized rebadged coupe. Original GTO's were an option on Tempest/Lemans. They looked just like the other pontiacs in the lineup of that era. So why do people complain this GTO looks too much like other Pontiacs? People need to go back to the 1960's early 1970's. GTO is a household name too. Anyone that knows anything about cars has heard that name. The new Mustang is nice but a new set of flaws came with the 2005 Stang, like defective gas tanks, radios, etc. I believe they have been corrected. I personally would NEVER buy a first year american car.

    I don't buy mass produced cars like Camry-Accord-Mustang etc. I don't want to have what everyone else on the block does. My GXP is a company car, didn't buy it. But to each their own!!

    Lets get one thing straight, the V6 Mustang does NOT have performance, it's looks only, just like the ones on the Hertz rental lot, my family Acura is faster/better performing and better built. Only the V8 model has performance. The scion with the Toyota dealer installed Supercharger is FASTER then V6 Stang !! And not much more $$, $21k. Accord coupe will blow the doors off V6 stang too. 5.9 seconds with Stick. In fact it will run with the V8 Mustang !!

    "But again, to be fair, give me 3-4 grand to even the price delta and a "supped" Mustang will outperform a GTO."

    But the GTO already has better interior, better seats, better build quality, usuable backseat, IRS, etc. Getting C6 Corvette drivetrain for $15k less. It would take a lot more $4k to fix that in mustang. It's not all about going fast. It's quality too. Mustang is a pony car. A cheap car to go fast. Just like F bodies were. GTO is more of a luxury performance car that still out performs the stang in every category according to MPH , C&D etc. Everyone knows the GTO won the C&D comparo where it counted except the ultimate 1 point loss because of "Got to have it" factor, LOL!

    I thik we have talked this to death already, time to move on. In the End we can AGREE to DISAGREE then.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,938
    Accord coupe will blow the doors off V6 stang... In fact it will run with the V8 Mustang !!

    :surprise: :surprise:

    Umm... Don't think so. Not even the previous generation GT.
  • "Umm... Don't think so. Not even the previous generation GT."

    I think so. Accord V6 coupe is same or faster then previous generation Mustang GT V8.

    1999 to 2004 Mustang V8 ran high 5's to low 6's
    2003 and on Accord V6 coupe ran high 5's.

    Good drivers race. :P
  • "The new Mustang is nice but a new set of flaws came with the 2005 Stang, like defective gas tanks, radios, etc. I believe they have been corrected. I personally would NEVER buy a first year american car."

    I like buying good American cars and had no problem buying a first year model in the case of the new Mustang. Don't think that the new GTO is without its own problems. Check the boards…and good luck with parts shipped from Australia.

    "But the GTO already has better interior, better seats, better build quality, usuable backseat, IRS, etc. Getting C6 Corvette drivetrain for $15k less. It would take a lot more $4k to fix that in mustang. It's not all about going fast. It's quality too. Mustang is a pony car. A cheap car to go fast. Just like F bodies were. GTO is more of a luxury performance car that still out performs the stang in every category according to MPH , C&D etc. Everyone knows the GTO won the C&D comparo where it counted except the ultimate 1 point loss because of "Got to have it" factor, LOL! "

    “Cheap” is a relative term...I’m sure my used Mustang Premium GT Convertible with Interior Upgrade Package is valued at more than your used GTO in the current market...even with your Corvette drive train and supposedly better quality...and these were two cars that were similar in price when new...and the performance charactersitics were not that much different to sway me away from a Mustang GT.

    I’m not sure what GM was thinking when it re-badged an Australian built car with the GTO name. It's a nice car for sure, but The GTO appears to be a band aid approach to this market until GM brings back the Camaro...a car that was available in different models, has a long and respected North American history, and could compete with the Mustang across the board of this market.
  • " I thik we have talked this to death already, time to move on. In the End we can AGREE to DISAGREE then."

    True dat! In the end, we both love our respective hot rods and can easily compete with cars costing twice as much. But isn't this whole thread about a Goat vs. Pony debate? I must say though that the comparison of a 2005 Mustang GT with a V6 Accord is suspect. Not only is a similarly equipped Accord thousands more, the Mustang is nearly a second faster in 0-60. The Accord wins on finish and reliability, but the Mustang is the performance and styling king. If a stock GTO outperforms a stock Mustang GT (which it does by all of a 2-3 tenths), then a stock Mustang GT decimates the Accord. Let's stick to the same standard.....

    If the GTO was such a great car, sales numbers would support that. Yet the opposite is true. I think most people (who aren't going to the track) don't consider performance numbers the end all, be all to buying a car. And the performance differences between the GTO and Mustang GT are not huge.

    The Stang has much more than "WoW Factor"...C&R says it best...
    "So what was the Mustang's appeal? Well, we're suckers for a great body, and the Mustang looks a lot better than the GTO. Disparage the Mustang's '60s styling if you must, but get ready to face the reality that the GTO's banality is pure '90s. Furthermore, the Mustang wins because when you take it in, as a total package, the Ford makes better sense. Pick apart the Mustang's laundry list of simple components, and it will seem to be less of a car than the GTO, but drive the Mustang, and it feels like far more than the sum of its parts. That is the draw of the Mustang: It makes the most of what it has, doesn't suffer for what it doesn't have, charges you less than you'd expect, and beckons from the showroom until you come and take it home."
  • jontyreesjontyrees Posts: 159
    "I’m not sure what GM was thinking when it re-badged an Australian built car with the GTO name."

    believe I posted this about 100pgs back, but I'm sure they were thinking "Hey this Aussie coupe is fast, has a really cool interior, drives great, seems to be screwed together well, and we could sell it for around $30k in the US. I bet we could move around 15,000/yr. Let's import some. Hey we could call it a GTO."

    I like the way mine looks other than a slightly awkward treatment of the rear quarters, (makes the wheels look small). Do I wish I had a Mustang GT instead - no way! Do I expect Mustang ownres to prefer my GTO - no, that's why they bought Mustangs. Both nice cars - I like mine better.
This discussion has been closed.