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Ford Mustang (2005) vs. 2005 Pontiac GTO

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  • Well the news out that the Challenger is available with up to 425 HP is irritating. Rumbles are GM is having issues wanting to bring out the Camaro within budget and still be a Pony/GTO/MoPar killer.

    Wouldn't be cool if the Pontiac R & D guys solicited existing GTO owners for input on body style, ergonomics, and power packages?

    Might get some ideas on a "retro" look that FoMoCo found so successful with the 05+ S197 platform that is today's Mustang.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,209
    Wouldn't be cool if the Pontiac R & D guys solicited existing GTO owners for input on body style, ergonomics, and power packages?

    Kind of like Ford did with the current Mustang? They let Mustang owners/fans give a lot of input in the current iteration and it paid off I think we can all agree. ;)
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    I don't mean to start anything (haven't posted in a long time but read this from time to time), and I can't believe I'm doing this, agreeing with Sensai but he is correct. The 4.6 was first intro'd in the 91 ~ 92 time frame in the CV/GM/Continental FWD and was the 2-valver. The Mustang got the motor in the 96 timeframe, with better intake/exhaust, but was the same motor. And the 4.6 4-valve DOHC motor for the Cobra (also the last Mach 1) came from the Mark VIII; believe it was called In-tech.

    The 3-valve didn't come out until the current-gen Mustang came out, but the trucks got it as well. All the press may have been on the Mustang but the 3-valve was also on the trucks.

    What I don't like about the 4.6L is that it seemed to be stuck in HP-Limbo for a long time and only now is making 300 (or 320 depending on who you talk too). And it seems that you have to do an SC or something heavy to it to make it scoot; you just can't do a cam and/or head swap to increase performance like on an LS-engine. It seemed from day 1 the LS-family was similar to the traditional SB where you can do simple (semi-simple) traditional bolt-ons and get good gains; you can't seem to do that to the 4.6L.

    Remember, the 4.6/5.4L is just like the LS-X engines, they're corporate, kind of like the 302/351W & the 350 workhorses.

    Happy hunting ;)
  • One thing with the 4.6 is there's plenty of room to work work with. Adding a Vortech or Magnacharger SC can put you @ 500HP.

    Bring back the Boss 302.....
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Definately something to keep in mind. The 4.6 may not have high output from the factory, but Ford is not exactly maxing this engine out either. A lot of potential growth is left for the owner to find.

    Keep in mind that the Mustang is a price leader.

    Mark.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    Oh I agree, but I just wish you didn't have to do the SC. I mean, beyond the TB, exhaust, what other simple or semi-simple bolt-ons can you do to the stock 4.6 to get some real gains (please, no NOx)? It just seems this sucker should be putting out more without the need to SC it. That's what has always bothered me about the mod motor. If there's more power on the table unleash it man!! And like the Poncho owners here have stated, they can just do the same thing, or do a semi-simple hot-cam or head swap and away they go.

    And I will admit you can get some crazy gains from the last-gen Cobra. Just doing a plug-n-play tune on the ECM gets some great gains; swap the pulley and you get another nice boost (no pun intended).

    Sorry for that Mustang-only side-track...
  • I guess the simplest avenue next would be to change the gear ratio to a 3.73 or 4.10. Short of Ford going to a 32v variant of the 4.6, without a way of (in simple terms) forcing more air in, It's a big $$ investment. Don't forget the GTO had a Vette engine and powertrain dropped in. It would be interesting to see what Ford could do with a N/A 5.4 32v (like that used in the Navigator) Should be able to at least get 400 out of it....
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    Actually thats what they did for the Shelby GT500.

    4 valves apparently isn't the solution that everyone assumes it is.

    4 valvers loose some of their low end torque. You also have the added complexity of the DOHCs.

    What I find interesting is that Honda is able to fit enough loobs on one cam shaft to run all four valves in their four cylinders with out haveing to go DOHC.

    The SC upgrades IMHO are very affordable when you consider the potential gain. You are less then $5k and you can get a very nice Mustang GT for just around $30k. So for a total investment of $35,000 you can build a Corvette beater. At least in the str8s.

    Mark
  • mschmalmschmal Posts: 1,757
    One that that Ford is doing with the Mustang that Pontiac should have done with the GTO is to get the car onto the track.

    Mustang is doing very well in the racing classes both in the states and in Europe...This dispite a live axle.

    Track creed for this type of car has to mean something.

    Mark.
  • Coming in 2010:

    The Boss is a forthcoming large-displacement V8 engine project at Ford Motor Company. The engine project was reportedly cancelled in 2005 as the company focused on its existing Triton V8 and V10, but was reportedly[1] revived in early 2006 by Mark Fields. The large engine will compete with DaimlerChrysler's new Hemi and General Motors' large Vortec engines.

    The Boss engine will reportedly displace 6.2 L (379 in³, 6208 cc) upon introduction, with the ability to exceed 7.0 L in future applications, and produce more than 425 hp (317 kW) and 425 ft·lbf (576 N·m). It has been rumored that a smaller 5.8 L (355 in³, 5814 cc) version will be developed for a special edition 2009 Ford Mustang and is expected to be the standard V8 engine for the 2010 or 2011 Ford Mustang. The Boss V8s will be built at Cleveland Engine in Cleveland, Ohio. The first application will be Ford's F-Series pickup trucks produced at Dearborn Truck. It has been rumored that the Boss will retain many of the Modular V8 design cues such as a deep skirt block with cross bolted main caps, oiling system design, and overhead camshaft valve train arrangement. The Boss' single most significant departure from the Modular V8 will be the significantly wider 4.53 in (115 mm) bore centerline. It has been rumored that the 6.2 L will employ a 4.015 in (102 mm) bore diameter and a 3.74 in (95 mm) stroke to achieve it's displacement while the 5.8 L version will retain the 6.2 L's bore diameter but employ a shorter 3.503 in (89 mm) stroke. The initial versions of the Boss will have two-valves-per-cylinder, two spark-plugs per cylinder and likely employ a form of cylinder or valve deactivation for increased fuel economy. Later high-performance versions will be equipped with DOHC, four-valves-per-cylinder and Gasoline direct injection (GDI). There are rumors of a 6.2 L, DOHC, four-valves-per-cylinder, twin-turbo, GDI version of the Boss already under development.

    Initial information on valve size, puts the intake valve at 2.10" and 1.65" exhaust [2]

    The engine was initially called the "Hurricane", but this was changed in mid 2006 to the storied Boss name[3] in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

    We wait and see......
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    It's definitely coming, just not 100% sure of the timing and applications.

    I have a hard time believing it will be THE standard V8 engine for the mustang, though.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    ...with the ability to exceed 7.0 L in future applications, and produce more than 425 hp (317 kW) and 425 ft·lbf (576 N·m). It has been rumored that a smaller 5.8 L (355 in³, 5814 cc) version will be developed for a special edition 2009 Ford Mustang and is expected to be the standard V8 engine for the 2010 or 2011 Ford Mustang.

    Boss 429 & 351 (well 355) reborn? Can we see a hi-po 289 soon?
  • The reason for the demise of the GTO was not it's lack of power or handling, It was because it looks like a jelly bean,
    The same for the 4th Gen Camaro, Why did it Die, the sales for the last 5 years were declining by 20% each year until 2002 the sales were less than 45000 even when the Mustang was still selling 150000. Lets face it the Camaro had the power, 350 ponies it was a fast car, but it looked like crap, it was a corvette little brother wanabe not a muscle car. GM lost both because of looks, not power or interior. The Mustang has always out sold the Camaro, why? it's not power.
  • mparis1mparis1 Posts: 107
    What a great advertising coupe for Ford...constant advertising for Ford Mustang.........................GM.....................you should be ashamed.......................the GTO is dead ....long live the Camaro............if they ever build it.....bye bye my sweet little GTO...all that is left is the 60s song...and the movie "two lane blacktop" :cry:
  • eliaselias Posts: 1,830
    don't be too glum, mon petit chou-chou mparis.
    the new camaro sure does look nice.
    hey'd have to be crazy not to build it.

    oh oh.
  • waterdrwaterdr Posts: 307
    I own a 400 rwhp Mustang and have driven a GTO a few times, so I feel I have a good comparison.

    The GTO looks bland as hell, but is a real joy to drive. I find the GTO to a be a real bargin in the after-market, because they were such slow sellers. The GTO seems to me to be more refined and better as a DD then a Mustang. I was actually thrilled with the car after poking fun at it for so long.

    MSRP vs MSRP, I would choose Mustang, but the deals on these GTO's are really somthing.

    Also, if you wish to mod, I would think the Mustang would be a lot cheaper to mod due to a much larger after-market and many years experience with the 4.6 and millions of them on the road vs may 50,000 of the GTO's.
  • motox223motox223 Posts: 2
    the only reason the mustang sells so much is because every 35 year old mom with blonde hair and her daughter buys one. go get a 87 to 93 and youll be fine. but to play it safe just go with the GTO. stock to stock you dont want no part of it.
  • motox223motox223 Posts: 2
    obviously you don't know too much about the sales of the GTO then. Pontiac only sent out one to each dealership. and if they were lucky they got two. so dont sit here and tell me about the mustang outselling it. the GTO is a legend not a DD. the mustang has turned into a chick car. i would never own one cuz then i would be like every other idiot in town trying to follow the crowd. they are awesome looking and can be fast. but till you line up with a GTO and beat it then dont talk anymore. my brother just outran a mustang in a dodge 4door long bed deisel. smoked it not just beat it. so seriously.. get for real
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    It may be a legend but I don't think a Mustang could be confused with a Pontiac Sunfire.

    There is more to life (and cars) than drag racing on the street.
  • vertical3vertical3 Posts: 43
    Well down here in West Palm Beach all the GTO owners I know use theirs as a DD. I have seen 3 where it was either hers or the wife was driving his. Also most the stangs the chicks drive are the 6 cyl. In our club here we have one with a Roush, two with SVT Cobra's (they work on it themselves), and 3 with GT's (one is a State Trooper). Your brother probably ran a 6 cylinder. Get off your pedestal and get in line with the rest of us with your GTO filling up at $3.75 a gallon.
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