Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

kdhspyder

First the batteries are NiMH batteries which from actual on road usage and benchtesting in laboratories seem to have an indefinite life span.

Life Expectancy ( from Toyota's website )

life expectancy

Enter the site ==> FAQs ===> How long are the batteries expected to last ( tested 180,000 miles with no loss of performance ).

In addition: ( via Google ==> 'NiMH battery failures' )

Toyota's position

This seems borne out by real world experiences in the 6 yrs the hybrids have been out there are few, if any, reports of battery failure except due to abuse or misuse. It's a non-issue.

wvgasguy

Everything I've read places useful battery life at 4-5years, given the fact they are lithium-ion batteries.

Not sure why I'd try to convince you, but first of all the batteries are Nickle Netal Hydride, not Lithium-ion. Not sure what you're reading other than the Edmonds bash Hybrid postings, but I've yet to see an article (not opinion) that even hinted that they were only good for 4 to 5 years. All I have read, (google it) say the gov't quit testing it at 150,000 miles because there was NO noticable drop in effeciency.

Besides, as a person who has traded every 30,000 miles for years, IF I get 200,000 out of my batteries and they go bad, I really don't mind putting another $2000 in my car to make it "new" again. (Probably won't have to touch the ICE as it's pretty well running along on <60% load most of the time, if it's on at all.)

kdshapiro

Ah yes meant NiMH. I was really talking about independent verification. Toyota's position is similiar to Merck's position saying Vioxx is safe.

wvgasguy

Ah yes meant NiMH. I was really talking about independent verification. Toyota's position is similiar to Merck's position saying Vioxx is safe.

My last post. It's hard to hit a moving target. You need to state your specific claims and hopefully someone with more patience (kdhspyder) will respond.

bobad

NiMH cell failure is more time and temperature related than usage or mileage related. NiMH cells degrade to a point where performance is significantly reduced by 3 years, 4 years tops. I wouldn't trust them beyond that.

A test could run up 180,000 miles in 1 year, and the battery pack would still be good, because it's still relitavely new. A lot of time in a hot environment is the real test... mileage tells me nothing.

I would think a 4 year old hybrid would have little resale value. We shall see. The last thing a used car buyer needs is a huge expense after a few months.

kdhspyder

I know all companies lie about everything so none of it is true. Right?

DOE did it's own testing of the NiMH battery and found the same, stopping at 150,000 miles.

What do you need as independent verification? 500,000 miles? Who cares? What is any vehicle worth after 200,000 miles? $1500? If a vehicle goes 200K or 300K or 500K what's the difference? Who drives that anyway, except me.

It is certainly your right to be skeptical and choose not to believe that the world is round, but stating that it's flat 'as everyone knows' isn't very beneficial.

kdhspyder

While this may be true about time and temperature having more of an effect on the life of a NiMH battery it remains that the CARB states require a 10 yr / 150,000 mi warranty on the hybrid systems.

Thus both the wages of time and wear are well covered.

The arguments most often posed against hybrids seem to be a grasp - at something - to try to believe that the hybrids don't work. I mean they really can't work as well as proponents say? Can they? Can they???

Empirical evidence and testing both seem to confirm that yes hybrids can perform as stated. Yes a Camry hybrid can get V6 power and the fuel economy of a Corolla all day long.

I would think a 4 year old hybrid would have little resale value. We shall see. The last thing a used car buyer needs is a huge expense after a few months.

A little research here at Edmunds will go a long way.
2002 Corolla LE... $17500 New..... $7060 Trade Value
2002 Prius......... $22500 New.... $10600 trade Value
2002 Camry LE..... $21000 New..... $8650 Trade Value

jrock65

"'XLE' version of the hybrid Camry is $1000 less than the XLE version of the ICE Camry."

Not in the real world. Who cares what the MSRP is. It is street prices that matter.

And fact is, in almost all of the major metro areas, the Camry hybrid is selling near MSRP, whereas the non-hybrid Camry is selling for a few hundred above invoice.

Also, when you say that the Camry Hybrid is $1000 less MSRP than the XLE, I assume that you are talking abou the V6. I had an opportunity to test the V6 and the Hybrid back to back, and it's no comparison. The hybrid isn't bad, but the V6 felt signficantly more powerful (and smoother at highway speeds). The smoothness of the Camry Hybrid really suffers when you push it a bit.

That said, the Camry Hybrid could make sense even from a financial point of view if you qualify for the $2600 credit. Alas, I don't qualify for it.

kdhspyder

I agree wholeheartedly that the 3.5L is much more powerful than the TCH, there's no doubt about that. However as a confirmed 4c driver I find no need whatsoever for that much power in a car. 268 hp is 70 hp wasted for the type of driving I do. I'll opt for the fuel economy trade off.

The relative market prices are just that... relative and subject to market forces. V6 XLE's with Navi at or just below sticker are hardly unconommon. Even with a $1000 discount it makes it just equal to the TCH at sticker.

Again this ignores any potential tax benefit for the next 14 mo's.

bhmr59

Yes, I am ignorant about hybrids. When I said, "I don't know", that's what I meant. I was asking a question. And, no, I did not research Saturday night before posting my questions.

Regarding the 10 year/150,000 warranty, is that pro rated? i.e., if the batteries die after 8 years, does the owner have to pay 80% of the replacement cost, or does the manufacturer cover 100% of the replacement cost?

kdshapiro

"What do you need as independent verification? 500,000 miles? Who cares?"

The owner of the hybrid should care. The replacement cost for the battery is astronomical. The hybrids have not been around long enough for real world verification to know if it makes sense mechanically and finanically, without any tax credits.

Yes, I'm a doubting "tom" about this technology, because I'd like to see what happens in 5 years and how much it *really* will or will not cost the owner to replace system components.

kdhspyder

No it's a full guarantee just like a 60/60000 Powertrain warranty. If anything goes arwy before 150K or 10 yrs in the CARB states the problem is fixed free of charge to the owner, assuming the driver/owner didn't cause the problem ( accident or abuse ).

kdhspyder

Did you look at the statement from Toyota on this matter?

The representative stated the 'sales price' of a replacement battery was $3000. But the situation has never arisen. They've never had to replace one in 6 years here.

There are parallels everywhere in this market.
Take any 150,000+ mi vehicle and tell me what is the cost to replace the tranny? It's about $2500-$3500. Buyers run into this situation everyday. I had the same on my 97 Camry with 185,000 miles on it. I chose rather than put $2800 into a $4000 vehicle to trade it instead.

Heck I had to put $2500 tranny's into two Chryslers in the late 80's one at 43K and one at 56K. It's one reason I drive Toyota's now.

Someone has scared lots of people with goofy numbers about the batteries... to wit...

The replacement cost for the battery is astronomical

If as expected I reach 200K+ in my current Prius and the battery craps out. It's done with. I've gotten my use and I'm ready for a new one anyway.

Any normal vehicle with 200K on it is worth about $500 so any significant repair writes it's death sentence. I am not so afraid of spooks in the dark.

jimmy81

With the never ending upward spiral of crude prices, Toyota will definitely see a HUGE spike in the volume of Hybrid sales, regardless of what the few here in this forum want to bicker about.

Gas guzzlers like the V6 Sonata and the V6 Fusion will be sitting on the lots, again, waiting for the ubiquitous rebates.

njerald

8 year/100,000 miles in the states w/o CA emissions standards, isn't it?

kdhspyder

Yep, the non-CARB states are at 8/100K.

m1miata

Hummm, I looked up the G35 in Consumer Guide to see what they had to say for Estimated Repair Costs:
G35
and the BMW3 Looks to me like the G35 is pretty darn expensive to repair. Did you note the transmission cost? For both of these cars, an extra $5K to $7K set aside for repair bills, would be a great idea.
-Loren

kdshapiro

They are all expensive to repair to repair after the warranty perior. How much does an Acura tranny cost?

However, with BMW you pay $0 for the first four years for anything except tires or self-inflicted damage. So if you're going to get the car anyway, the $0 is nice.

kdshapiro

$3K large for a battery is a lot of money, thanks for the info. Good luck with yours I hope it goes the distance. I guess the manufacturers need to cover the hybrid drivetrain 100% for 8 years or nobody would buy them. But I'm betting that as these vehicles age, battery effectiveness will decrease markedly. We shall see.

thegraduate

Gas guzzlers like the V6 Sonata and the V6 Fusion will be sitting on the lots, again, waiting for the ubiquitous rebates.

Um, they aren't any worse than the Accord, which is relatively efficient.

Sonata: 20/30
Fusion: 21/29
Accord: 20/29

All seem pretty even. The Camry V-6 is a little better, at 22/31, but none of these three (Sonataccordion) are worse than the other!

jrock65

Actually, Accord is 20/29 for the V6 auto.

elroy5

I've read some of the owner reviews of the Accord and Sonata. Seems many Accord owners with V6s are getting over 30mpg on the highway. I've not seen any Sonata V6 owners saying they get that kind of mileage. I took a 350 mile trip, and got 33mpg (not all highway). With the 5 speed automatic, the engine is turning very low rpms at 75-80 mph on the highway. My old 4cyl Accord didn't do that good on the highway. I get around 25mpg in stop and go city traffic, which is also pretty good.

jrock65

My wife's 2004 Accord EX V6 gets pretty good highway mileage of 31 mpg. City stop and go mileage sucks, about 15 mpg. She does about 50/50 hwy/city driving, so overall it's about 22/23 mpg. CR got about similar numbers in its test, 16 city, 31 hway.

25 mpg in real-world stop-and-go 100% city huh. Never heard of that. Must be the most efficient V6 Accord ever made.

thegraduate

I didn't know that; I corrected the post accordingly. Thank you!

kdhspyder

The warranty is a security blanket certainly.

But I'm betting that as these vehicles age, battery effectiveness will decrease markedly
Empirical data from testing and realworld driving suggests otherwise.

Betting? Did someone mention betting :surprise:

A proposition: I pay you $2 for each Toyota hybrid battery failure between 100K and 150K and $4 for every hybrid battery failure between 150K and 200K..... but
You pay me $1 for every vehicle that has no failure from 100K to 200K. Wrecks are not included in either category.

I might retire on your annuity payments

kdshapiro

"Empirical data from testing and realworld driving suggests otherwise"

How does your NiMH recharageable batteries do? Actual empirical data in the kdshapiro household suggests they get thrown out due to loss of effectiveness in a couple of years. How are these batteries different?

I have a different proposition. We make a bet. Each of us puts $25,000 in a bank account. Then we each buy two new cars, you buy a new Prius, I'll buy a new Hyundai Accent. This money comes out of our bank account. We then drive for 5 years and tally the expenses, taking the money from our bank account. Whoever has the most money left in the bank account after 5 years, gets the others money.

Ridiculous? Absolutely, that's the financing of hybrids. You're paying way to much money to get a slight bump in fuel economy, while having the government (read: us) subsidize it. I frankly think any car that gets over 20 mpg should get a tax credit.

joe97

There are a lot of factors and conditions to consider, but from the Sonata owners I've spoken to, many averaged over 30mpg hwy on a consistent basis, even with the A/C on during the summer season.

wvgasguy

Hey Bob, other than I'd not yet own a Hyundai, here's what sold me on the Camry Hybrid.

Sonata Limited w/ options MSRP 25,565, with TMV of 24,092 and a REBATE (slow mover?) of $1000 and final purchase of $23,092. I drive 25,000 miles per year and in 3 years with $3.05 gas and 23 mpg average that's another $9945 for a total of $33,037

Toyota Camry Hybrid similarly equipped MSRP of 29,406. I got a discount of $589 a Fed Tax Credit of $2600 and a State tax Credit of $3750. (No rebate on cars that sell). My final purchase (for comparitative purposes as I actually got NAV on my car) $22,467. I'm averaging 38.7 after 8000 miles so with 3.05 gas and 25,000 miles a year my cost in 3 years is $5910 for gas and a total in 3 years of $28,377.

Insurance, NORMAL maintenance and all being the same that leaves me with $4660. I won't have to buy batteries because it's still on warranty for another 25,000 miles. But what ever happens I have a ton of extra change in my pocket to pay for it.

I'm betting (I know you like that) that a 3 year old TCH has a significantly higher market value and appeal over a Sonota. Since not everyone gets the tax credits, it's a bonus to the early folks and it should not affect the used car prices like heavy rebates have, so since TCHs are going for list or near a 50% depreciation of true cost is say $14,500 for the TCH and for the Sonata it would be $11,500. I make another $3,000 there as well.

Say what you want, even though used car book prices are nationally printed, some cars have an appeal to dealers and some don't and what you actually get varies. A 3 year old Hyundai getting 23 mpg is not going to be a sought after car and dealers won't be paying a premium to get a used one on their lot, especially if in three years gas is over $4/gallon and the market is then full of new hybrids and diesels being introduced with all getting 35+mpg.

tenpin288

and a State tax Credit of $3750

Unfortunately, many of the rest of us don't live in a state that is so generous. Remove the state tax credit and while the equation may still be on the hybrid side, it is not overwhelmingly so, and when the federal credit goes away, it may swing back the other way. Just some more food for thought when looking at the hybrid/non-hybrid equation.

wvgasguy

I would have bought it without the state tax credit but I was glad I was able to get mine in time to qualify. (It expired June 5th)

jrock65

"The relative market prices are just that... relative and subject to market forces. V6 XLE's with Navi at or just below sticker are hardly unconommon. Even with a $1000 discount it makes it just equal to the TCH at sticker."

Sure, relative and subject to market forces. But you know as well as I do that, in general, discounts are MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to get on the Camry Hybrid than the non-Hybrid.

I'm sure that there are some suckers out there that pay MSRP for a regular Camry. But that's not what I'm talking about. If you're willing to shop or haggle a bit, you could get $2000 off on any non-hybrid Camry (including those with Nav) in the DC area, and I imagine that is the case in most major metro areas (LA, NY, etc.)

However, you could haggle and bargain until your tongue falls off, and they're still asking MSRP for a Camry Hybrid, or at most a few hundred off if you're lucky.

jeffyscott

The thing is, if my concern is saving money, why would I want to buy the high end Camry to begin with? Not that I have any interest in a Camry, but if my concern is strictly cost, why would I not just buy a $20,000 4 cyl Camry. This would save $6000 on the purchase price over your net (excluding the state tax credit)?

This is an additional reason why these cars make little economic sense, IMO. Oh, I can't afford that $3 per gallon gas...but I can afford $6000 worth of bells and whistles on my new car :confuse:

cxc

"Toyota Camry Hybrid similarly equipped MSRP of 29,406. I got a discount of $589 a Fed Tax Credit of $2600 and a State tax Credit of $3750. (No rebate on cars that sell). My final purchase (for comparitative purposes as I actually got NAV on my car) $22,467. I'm averaging 38.7 after 8000 miles so with 3.05 gas and 25,000 miles a year my cost in 3 years is $5910 for gas and a total in 3 years of $28,377."

The tax credit is the deduction from taxable income, not the deduction from tax. A total of $6350 (2600+3750)tax credit really means a $1905 tax saving at a tax rate of 30%. If I am right, you will get your car about $27,000. Please correct me if I am wrong because I am not a tax expert.

meateater

A tax credit is a 'credit' against taxes due -it directly reduces your tax. A tax deduction is a deduction to taxable income. So obviously a tax credit is a beautiful thing. Unless however, you're one of these smoke and mirror guys that somehow doesn't pay much income tax.

kdhspyder

Since this is the forum about midsized sedans my comments are more about the TCH.

But since you bring it up another big misconception regarding the Prius is that it is comparable to a Corolla, Civic, Accent, Sentra. All of these were immediately eliminated from consideration last year because..
a) they were too small inside
b) didn't have all the safety features of the Prius
c) didn't have the ride comfort of the Prius

So beginning with the fact that all compacts are eliminated, I've only driven midsized vehicles for 35 years, that leaves the Prius and Jetta TDI as the most fuel efficient of the new models.

Yours is a apples/oranges comparison. Why? I'd choose a pre-owned Corolla/Civic ( same class as an Accent ) if I was only interested in saving total transportation dollars. Both vehicles even 4-5 yrs old will still last another 10 yrs and I'd be able to buy either at about $.50 on the $ from the new price. If one is concerned about the total cost of transportation then a Certified Toyota/Honda and maybe soon Hyundai is always a better choice than a new vehicle.

But the discussion before was only about batteries and their expected life as concerns the Camry hybrid. Empirical data from the US market now after six years shows that there has never been a battery failure in a Toyota hybrid except due to abuse or misuse. This confirms Toyota's testing. How much data do you need to believe that the world is not flat?

wvgasguy

Please correct me if I am wrong because I am not a tax expert.

Yes, you are wrong. Only if you're stuck with the AMT or simply don't pay taxes would the tax credit not be a good thing for you. The Federal is a credit against 2006 taxes and the state's is over the next three years.

wvgasguy

The thing is, if my concern is saving money, why would I want to buy the high end Camry to begin with?

Ahhh,glad you mentioned that, you see it's not all about saving money. The only reason I show the money part is to demonstrate the direct comparison with the Sonata or other cars where people are telling me the economics of the hybrid don't make sense. If I could have bought this hybrid set up in a Lexus I would be driving that. I gave up my Infiniti ride because I was tired of using so much gas. Fact is I don't want to drive a small econobox and the TCH is a good mid size car that has better economy than all but two cars sold in the US (HCH and Prius). I don't have to trade off much in the luxury I enjoy and I get the FE of a car better then my daughters Corolla or a gas powered Civic. Pretty incredible.

kdhspyder

Again agreed in the big metro areas that $2000 off is potentially possible but the key factor is that the V6 XLE's w/Navi are like hen's teeth. Some of the largest dealers may have one or two out of an inventory of hundreds. The smaller stores likely will see one a year.

These one-of-a-kind vehicles aren't sold with the same discount as say an LE 4c. Again due to the relative scarcity any discount on an XLE w/Navi is significant. That's the comparable price comparison for the TCH.

imidazol97

>Empirical data from the US market now after six years shows that there has never been a battery failure in a Toyota hybrid except due to abuse or misuse.

I find that hard to believe, until I note the abuse and misuse clause. All failures probably are categorized into those two exceptions. It would look bad for battery problems to become public for any of the hybrid makers.

kdhspyder

Again research does a lot of good. With all the data being provided here on Edmunds and elsewhere don't you think that one person would have popped up somewhere. Your implication is that somehow Toyota, Honda, Ford have these open public forums under control, somehow editting the content to keep certain information out of the public eye.

Again this appears to be a grasp at a straw, some straw, any straw to try to believe that they don't work as well as indicated.

OK, I'll ask you directly. You've been involved in these forums and elsewhere for some time I'll assume. How many have you heard about?

They really do not fail. The 'secret' ( but it's actually well known in the field ) is in the technology and engineering. To bring this back on point. A TCH driver of 12-15000 miles annually can expect the originall battery to last well beyond 10-12 years of driving. By that time the driver will likely be tired of the vehicle and/or it will be worth $1000-$1500, just like any other midsized sedan.

bobad

A TCH driver of 12-15000 miles annually can expect the originall battery to last well beyond 10-12 years of driving.

That's almost impossible. It won't happen in the real world. Not even close. NiMH cells can't possibly have any useful life after 5 years in heat and cold.

jrock65

I haven't checked the Navi model prices recently, so you may be right about that. A couple months ago, V6 XLE w/ Navi was selling for about $2000 off MSRP, but the situation may have changed.

But in any case, what percentage of Camry buyers opt for the V6 XLE w/ Navi? I'd say less than 5%.

The difference is, ALL Camry Hybrid models are selling at or near MSRP, whether it has navi or not, whether it has leather or not.

Whereas MOST non-hybrid Camrys can be had at a few hundred over invoice.

So, make no mistake about it, there IS a hybrid premium, not counting any tax credits. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that, but it is what it is.

You keep comparing the hybrid to the Nav version, but how is that the appropriate comparison? The hybrid doesn't come with Nav standard, and the majority of hybrids aren't sold with Nav. Just like the majority of non-hybrids aren't sold with Nav.

kdhspyder

in 24 months but the subject will be diesel midsized sedans.

Two of the key points though will be be how noisy are they and how smelly are they. Some will say that there is no noise and no smell others will state that they are both. And what about the diesel premium and the extra cost of ULS diesel fuel? The likely replies will be 'well I'll have to wait until the technology is proven a little more'. ( It's been in existence for 100 yrs ).

All of our firmly-held ideas about auto transportation will be changing very soon. Resistance is futile as they say. It's already in process. Hybrid technology is just the first major new advancement to the next 100 yrs of transport.

kdhspyder

I focused on the loaded TCH version versus XLE V6 w/Navi because the original statment back in Post#5863 was

"...premium price for a hybrid"

In regards to these two similarly-equipped vehicles this blanket statement is not correct. There may be no premium when comparing these two.

I think that the V6 XLE + Navi sales are closer to 1-2%, they are extremely rare. I believe that there are more TCH sales of the 'XLE'-type than ICE XLE V6 +Navi sales. My own SOTP guesstimate is that the loaded up TCH outsells the XLE V6 w/Navi by 2 to 1. And, if Toyota provided more of the higher end TCH's than they do it might approach 3 : 1.

For those interested in a high end vehicle the TCH provides great value - even if its ICE sibling is discounted to bring the two equal in price.

pat

I think it's time we move past the battery issue in this particular discussion about midsized sedans. Those who'd like to pursue it can meet up here: Hybrids: The Great Battery Debate.

Thanks!

mfletou1

Good God. You don't get it. You've ALREADY been proven wrong. Hybrid batteries have already lasted well over 5 years and are in 6 digit mileage and have not failed.

We live in the real world. In the real world, the Prius was introduced in 1997. Let me repeat, for the millionith time this thread: Toyota has NEVER replaced a hybrid battery.

What more is there to say?

Obviously, if cost is the primary concern, the Camry Hybrid isn't the best option--its simply too "nice" of a car. I think the point about NAV is that there are some people who simply want to have NAV, so they're willing to pay a premium for it. Similarly, there are people who want to have a hybrid, and they'll pay a little more than a "regular" Camry for it because of demand. But the misconception is that the Camry Hybrid is a base Camry with a hybrid stuck in it--its not.

If you want a state of the art, quiet, roomy sedan with class leading content, plenty of power, and 35-40 mpg fuel economy, and you're willing to pay $25k or so (the price of the average new car, I might add), then the Toyota Camry Hybrid is your choice. Its also the ONLY choice.

wvgasguy

Below are quotes from people (on the Sonata Edmunds forum) that have new Sonata's. I got rid of my Infiniti FX45 because it was getting 16.3. I'm glad I didn't give it up for a Sonata thinking I was going to get high FE. I think some people are driving slower and getting good milage, but many are....

My in-town mileage is running about 17 - 17.5 right now.

I bought a new 2006 GLS with premium sports pkg V6 sonata ..
First tank 17.5 MPG ( trip calulator as well own calculation ) 50 - 50 ( HWY/CITY )
2nd tank 19.5 MPG 70/30 HWY/CITY
3rd tank 18.5 MPG 70/30 HWY/CITY

My car now has 1100 miles and 2 months old ..
I am really surprised why so low MPG ..
I am not an very aggressive driver , I am a very smooth driver .. I drive with very little abrupt acce/braking .. In my last camry i used to get 30 + MPG with 70/30 HWY/CITY ( V4 ) ..

Well I just filled my new v6 Sonata up for the first time. Averaged 23 mpg

I've been averaging 23.3 mpg with 5800 miles so far

I'm getting great mileage on the highway but terrible (<17mpg) city.

Ended up with 23 mpg on just over 310 miles

I've found that getting out of my subdivision with about 12 stops over 6 miles, I get about 17 MPG. Seems as if the Sonata is tuned for very good highway mileage, but crummy city driving mileage.

BTW, around town stop and go traffic, I only get 17-18 mpg like most people

jrock65

I can go to any mileage forum for any car and pick out the posts where people are getting bad mileage.

There are posts where people say that their 2007 Camry FOUR CYLINDER is getting 23 mpg in mostly highway driving.

What does that prove? Nothing much really, other than to show that there are some Camry drivers who get bad mileage, as well as some Sonata drivers who get bad mileage.

jrock65

Here are some results from the CR "real world" testing. I believe that the test was done a couple years ago on 2005 models. Notice how for every car, the city mileage is significantly worse than EPA mpg, while highway mileage is a bit better.

2005 Accord V6: 15/34
2005 Sonata V6: 14/30
2005 Altima V6: 14/30
2005 Mazda V6: 14/30
2005 Camry V6: 13/29

Remember that these were previous generation Sonata and Camry. The mileage for the current generation is higher for both.

For reference:

2005 Sonata V6 EPA mpg: 19/27
2007 Sonata V6 EPA mpg: 20/30

2005 Camry V6 EPA mpg: 20/28
2007 Camry V6 EPA mpg: 22/31

http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/fuel_efficient_cars_category.html- - - - -

imidazol97

Just what is the definition of city driving? A stoplight every block? Or a 35 mph thoroughfare and a stoplight that you hit every 2/3 of a mile and the others are timed so traffic rarely stops at them?

If I go through the center of Cincinnati I'd expect to get less than the EPA city. If I'm rolling into the suburban areas on city streets I do better on my car.