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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Hyundai's warranty has no exclusions which I would call major. You simply have to perform regular maintenance, keep the receipts, and you don't even have the maintenance performed at the dealer. For example, any prudent person would change the timing belt at the recommended service interval.

    I have absolutely no problem with Hyundai's warranty, as I maintain my Hyundai with the "book" being the worst-case maintenace interval reference.

    Look at it this way - if a Hyundai has improved its reliability over those in the past, and there's ample evidence that it has, a 10 year/100K powertrain warranty is simply icing on the cake.

    I've owned my Hyundai now for nearly 6 months, and there's been no "out-of-the-box" teething or quality issues, something that can't be said with previous new Hondas, Mazdas, Nissans, and Toyotas I've owned.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Here are Edmunds' projected resale for the Camry and Sonata. I chose the LE v. the LX because they are the closest in price.

    2007 Camry 4 cyl. LE auto (JBL, Premium Accessory, and Sunroof)

    Current market price: $21,805
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $9,742
    Depreciation (Year 5): $12,063

    2006 Sonata LX

    Current market price: $19,170
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $7,038
    Depreciation (Year 5): $12,132

    --------------------------------------

    So, at least according to Edmunds, at year 5, you've lost the same amount of money to depreciation for both cars.

    Of course, the Sonata LX has a lot more "stuff" than the Camry LE, notably a V6 and leather, among others.

    A lot of times when publications talk about depreciation and resale, they are basing them off MSRP. So that will invariably result in poor showings for cars like the Sonata, whose street price is a LOT lower than MSRP.

    The correct metric to measure resale and depreciation is actual market price, not MSRP.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Do "Total Cash Price" and "Current market price" represent the same starting point?

    Also, a Camry LE 4 5A in most regions besides SET is $21,279 including floormats. How the heck is edmunds.com calling the "Cash Price" nearly $600 ABOVE MSRP. The Camry is a 400k unit/yr family car, its been out for almost 3 months, anyone paying MSRP or above is a fool....

    I think clarification of the starting point terminology is necessary to understand what those figures mean.

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    In Edmunds' "Total Cash Price", local tax is included, so I just used their market price (which doesn't include tax).

    Also, their market price for the figure above includes JBL, Premium Accessory, and Sunroof (I edited the above post to say this). I couldn't get it to not include those. Let me know if you find a way to get it to not include those for the 2007 Camry LE auto when calculating resale.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Okay, this is as close as I could get the two cars in terms of Edmunds current market price.

    2007 Camry 4 cyl. CE auto

    Current market price: $19,347
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $8,404
    Depreciation (Year 5): $10,943

    2006 Sonata LX

    Current market price: $19,170
    Expected resale value (Year 5): $7,038
    Depreciation (Year 5): $12,132

    -------------------------

    So, in this scenario, the Sonata LX has cost you about $1200 more in depreciation after 5 years. Not a bad price to pay, considering that it has a lot more features than the Camry CE.
  • beantownbeantown Posts: 228
    Further, JD Power VDS, ranked the Sonata third in entry midsize segment, behind Alero and Malibu.

    Any chart that has the Alero, Malibu and Sonata as the top 3 was most likely drawn up by someone throwing darts at a piece of paper.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    The market prices are highly variable. Someone just posted in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion that they got an LX for $17,300 + T&L. There might be better deals to be had on the CE also.
  • beantownbeantown Posts: 228
    Enough with the Edmunds "projected resale values" already. They are not accurate. I owned a 2003 Rav4 for just under 3 years. I paid $20,500 for it and traded it in for $18,000. According to your beloved Edmunds "projected resale value" I probably should've only gotten around $16,000 for it. These numbers should never be used to support an argument as there are just too many variables to consider.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Enough with the Edmunds "projected resale values" already. They are not accurate. I owned a 2003 Rav4 for just under 3 years. I paid $20,500 for it and traded it in for $18,000. According to your beloved Edmunds "projected resale value" I probably should've only gotten around $16,000 for it. These numbers should never be used to support an argument as there are just too many variables to consider.

    Right... I'm sure your one RAV4 example is more reliable.

    The Edmunds calculations are based on "averages", so you would EXPECT it to be variable from one case to another.

    I can't vouchsafe for the accuracy of Edmunds' projections. But the point is, there is no evidence that it has a favorable bias for the Sonata v. the Camry (or vice versa).

    There is a lot of ballyhooing about the Sonata's poor resale. Comparing projected numbers from a respected auto publication is at least more tangible than the following scenario, which you see a lot around here.

    Camry fan: "I wouldn't consider a Sonata because its resale will stink."

    Sonata fan: "Its resale won't stink."

    Camry fan: "Yes it will."

    Sonata fan: "No it won't."

    and so on...
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The market prices are highly variable. Someone just posted in the Sonata Prices Paid discussion that they got an LX for $17,300 + T&L. There might be better deals to be had on the CE also.

    I'm sure that there are better deals, and worse deals, than Edmunds market price. It's just their calculation of the average. LX for $17,300. That's a great deal.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    In defense of JD Power, and especially Consumer Reports (a not-for-profit organization), the validity of sample size is as greater as one is able collect; and the sample size itself is large enough to validate the study.

    Keep in mind I am in full agreement that the Accord and Camry are two of the most reliable cars currently in the market (but still worth noting similar glitches are found just like they are with other vehicles). Whether or not you agree with these results posted, your conclusion in regards to the JD Power results, "likely drawn up by someone throwing darts at a piece of paper" is ignorant at best. These results are drawn with more-than-adequate supporting information.

    My point is directed to those continue being skeptical at the proven reliable-worthiness of the Sonata; even quality results for the car have been surging at an amazing pace. The Sonata clinching the most reliable vehicle (per CR) and #3 (behind Malibu & Alero) in the entry midsize segment of Vehicle Dependability (per JD Power) in 2005 are not something refutable.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    some facts

    -hyundai wants to be one of the top 5 automakers in the world

    -hyundai invests 1 billion dollar(not small potatoes) on a state of the art car facility

    -hyundai claims the sonata going through rigirous weather tests, torture tests etc

    -Jd power and other credible reliability magz(putting their reputation on the line) states the sonata is #3 in reliability

    - articles that the ceo's of the company turned back a whole set of made cars costing thousands to make, since there was a miniscule defect most other automakers wouldn't bother fixing

    - Toyota the #2 auto company ceo states , hyundai is the one car company they are scared of

    I don't know i feel like i'm on crazy pills, but what else do you non belivers want?? with all of these facts what are the chances, hyundai took a chance and cared little to make a car that was not going to be reliable??

    I don't why there is hope that this car will falter, because it is highly unlikely at this point
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I think clarification of the starting point terminology is necessary to understand what those figures mean.

    None of that even matters to the average new car seller or buyer. It matters only to the "industry" for statistical purposes. The astute seller is not impressed with the industry averages. Smart owners take good care of their cars. They asks for and usually get top dollar for their used car of any make. Anyone that trades in his used car gets bottom dollar. If it's OK with them, it's OK with me.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    My friends dad bought a top of the line v4 camry last month and bought his son the v4 sonata a week ago for a graduation present. But my friend hasn't had a chance to touch his own car since his dad has been hogging it around haha. My friend is driving the camry instead but he is angry at his dad.

    Just a funny story. Not to bash any 07 camry owners, but i've heard and seen alot of camcord to newly changed sonata owners but not the other way around. Times have certainly changed from 5-10 years ago in the mid size , definitely. Alot of legit options out there, my personal choice of course being the sonata
  • master1master1 Posts: 340
    Just a minor correction - it's a 4 cylinder, not V4. If it was a V4, it wouldn't make that common "put put put" noise. ;)
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    i don't understand why messeges have to be personal

    "Say something negative about it, and your post gets deleted"

    Because this car has nothing negative about it, cept perhaps long term quality belivableness. Now i never said it beats honda in the engine department, toyota in proven reliability credentials, mazda 6's handling but i can't think of one thing this car is not at least above average in(the things that matter)

    CAn't say the same about the current altima, pontiac g6, mailbu, impala and can't deny that honda and toyota really need some stronger brakes(minor but essential complaint).

    And i'am buying one already as of sept, just waiting for the 2007's.(i was also thinking about the 07 santa fe )
  • thesniperthesniper Posts: 44
    "My friends dad bought a top of the line v4 camry last month and bought his son the v4 sonata a week ago for a graduation present. But my friend hasn't had a chance to touch his own car since his dad has been hogging it around haha. My friend is driving the camry instead but he is angry at his dad.

    Just a funny story. Not to bash any 07 camry owners, but i've heard and seen alot of camcord to newly changed sonata owners but not the other way around. Times have certainly changed from 5-10 years ago in the mid size , definitely. Alot of legit options out there, my personal choice of course being the sonata"

    Stop fooling around.

    Anyway, it's I4, not V4. You can't call it a typo coz I is far from V on the keyboard.
  • ftrainftrain Posts: 29
    Chloe, since you mention the 2007 Sonata, one thing to ask them about that the salesman told me about a few weeks ago when I was shopping cars was that the 2007 Sonata is dropping traction and stability control as standard equipment--they're becoming options. He even showed me a spec sheet comparing the 2006 and 2007. (He also seemed surprised by that as soon as he showed me, and then quickly put it away and acted like maybe he wasn't supposed to be talking about that spec sheet.) Anyway, not sure if that is already common knowledge (I haven't been on the Sonata board enough), but if you're seriously shopping the Sonata this fall, you might want to check that and depending on what else they do to the new model, you might find that the 2006 is the better bargain.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    That is very much incorrect. The 2007MY Sonatas will continue to offer TCS and ESC (as well as host of safety equipment/features such as ABS, 6 airbags, dual active head restriant) standard, even on the base model.

    There are additions and modifications to the 07s, a few to note:

    17" are now offered at every trim (new trims: GLS, SE, Limited)
    Black leather
    Ultimate package (platinum badging, platinum stiched floormats, rear lip spolier, chrome side moldings)
    Telescopic steering wheel on all trims

    There are other neat changes, stay tuned...
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    The Accords braking distances may be unimpressive, but the new Camry uses discs at every corner on all models- like the Sonata, unlike the Accord- and has posted commendable braking performance in all media tests.

    ~alpha
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You actually saw a spec sheet showing that traction and stability are becoming optional? This would obliterate, for me, a big competitive advantage of the Sonata, though many folks might not care so long as you still get ABS and the gamut of airbags...

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Any word on whether the power driver's seat will be standard also, or at least available as a separate option?
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    As an ex-Lexus and Toyota customer, now that Toyota’s bullet-proof reliability is showing holes in the Kevlar, I recently purchased a loaded Altima 3.5SL. I just couldn't warm up to the somewhat quirky Maxima.

    The 3.5SL is probably the finest car I’ve had at any price.

    The drive train is perfectly matched with the transmission and the handling and braking dynamics are superb. The ride in the roomy SL is very smooth while being well damped, conveying a sense of confidence and control. Interior furnishings may not initially appear to be as plush as those found in Toyotas or Hondas, but are comfortable, well-assembled and made of soft but durable, high quality materials that won’t scratch easily, unlike those found in the 2007 Camry. The unusual dashboard and instrumentation design and illumination are pleasingly different, adding to the sporty but luxurious overtone that this 3.5SL exudes. Controls are well placed and operate with a feeling of quality and precision. The 3.5SL is loaded with a surprising number of useful amenities and upgrades that raise the status of this car into entry-level luxury territory.

    On the road, the 3.5SL is quietly confident. While Edmunds has criticized the Altima for its road noise, I have found it to ride quieter and smoother than the new Avalon, even with the low-spec OEM Continentals as standard attire. Perhaps Nissan have paid attention in the noise attenuation department, because this 3.5SL glides along with the smoothness and comportment of a luxury car. Everything is tightly constructed with no rattles or strange noises, and the body feels as tight as a tank. The proven VQ engine is extremely smooth, sweet and willing and can propel you well into illegal velocities, before you can switch CD tracks in the surprisingly powerful and authentic sounding Bose sound system. The drive-by-wire throttle control system operates harmoniously and without hesitation. Engine and transmission management systems communicate seamlessly as they should – something other manufacturers have yet to master.

    The 3.5SL is an absolute blast to drive - I look forward to every trip and make every excuse to take it for a run. It is like a happy puppy that loves to frolic. Whether in traffic or on the open road, the 3.5SL is sweet, tractable, controllable and like a fighter-jet, can instantly break the sound barrier on demand. This car feels as if you are wearing it as opposed to driving it. It responds intuitively - Nissan has paid obvious attention to steering and handling dynamics. All this wrapped up in one of the most attractive and svelte exteriors with four doors on the market today.

    Before you plunk down thousands more for a V6 Toyota, you owe it to yourself to take a long test-drive in a 3.5 equipped Altima. You may well discover that this underrated Altima 3.5SL is one of the industries' quiet secrets.

    Unlike most products, this car delivers far more than it promises. Grab one now in case Nissan spoils something with the upcoming 2007 model!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Fine review. It leads me to wonder why the Altima doesn't get more attention/respect from the automotive press. Lately its "all about" the Camry/Accord/Fusion/Sonata in the midsized class, or so it seems. I expect the 2007 model will garner some attention, with the inevitable comparos of Altima vs. Camry vs. Accord (vs. Fusion vs. Sonata), probably with the Aura thrown in there too.

    BTW, is there anything you don't like about the Altima 3.5SL? ;)
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Outstanding! Just 1 more reason the midsize group is the most refined and competitive in the entire industry.
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    Ummm... can I get back to you on that one?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The Accord V6 is smaller, lighter, smoother, more fuel efficient, runs on regular unleaded, and will pass another car (most important) just as quickly or quicker than Altima or Sonata. Also, Accord interior looks much better than either of them. Altima has better handling at the expense of a smooth ride. Sonata has a smooth ride at the expense of handling. Accord is the best of both worlds (ride and handling). Accord is #1.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Accord is #1.

    I didn't know we were having a contest. What are the rules? Can I play? :D

    The competitiveness could explain a lot of the spirited discussion that goes on here.

    To me, it's not about winning. It's about choosing the right car for yourself according to your likes, dislikes, needs, and budget. No matter which car in this class you choose, there is always a car that has a better feature or 2. It boils down to where you place your priorities. I like them all, but unfortunately I could only afford 1. I didn't "win", but I got a nice ride that suits my needs, and I am perfectly happy with it. I bet I would be happy with that Altima too! ;)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Backy, the 8-way power driver's seat is standard on the LX trim, and optional on the GLS trim, AFAIK for the 2006 model year. For 2007, let me find out for you...
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    I was impressed with the Accord too, but the EX V6 rode way too hard for me on those standard 17" wheels and low profile tires. IMHO the manufacturers have gone overboard with those big wheels and rubber-band tires at the expense of ride quality. Perhaps offer them as an option, as I'll take 16" wheels with much lower cost tires that provide a smoother ride. The Altima 3.5SL rides much softer than the Accord - this may not be true with the 3.5SE.
    The Accord VTEC engine was very responsive but didn't have the low-end torque of the Altima, but I can't argue that the Accord isn't an excellent choice. Our other vehicle is a Pilot and it is faultless.
    The Azera impressed me too, but resale value is still in the tank which is a real pity. This will no doubt change in time.
    One thing I didn't find in any car except the Altima - Nissan has somehow built in a soul. This thing is *almost* alive!
This discussion has been closed.