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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Honda is an extraordinarily good engine maker ( Indy 500 ) which happens to put auto's around some of these engines.

    In the US market only is Honda is considered to be one of the 'premier' automakers. In most other places Honda is far far down the list - including in Japan where it is 3rd like Chrysler.

    The US market is arguable the most important auto market for Honda.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I just don't get how car buyers allow themselves to be "conditioned" by clever advertising and "reputation" that they somehow must pay more. A good car is a good car, regardless of the badge or the price. Is a car your parents give you worthless? Will a car you pay $500K for be any more reliable than one you pay $20K for?

    Car makers will keep all the profits you allow them to keep. If you foolishly pay $5K too much, they will happily stuff it into their pockets, not into making a better car. If you refuse to play their game and choose to pay a fair price, they still make plenty profits for R&D and plant improvements. You can get caught up in that game the manufacturers try to play, and one-up your neighbors if that's your thing. If you need a comfortable, reliable car for the daily commute, you don't have to spend the kid's inheritance to get one.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Question: Now that Hyundai has begun to prove it's quality at least initially would you pay $24,000 for a V6 LX? This is the same 'air' as the CamCords.

    Absolutely not. That would mean I would buy a Sonata at list price, or at best for a lesser discount than an Accord or even a Camry. Why would I, or anyone, do that in today's ultra-competitive market for mid-sized cars?
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    "Total lie. In all the comparison test in 03 the 7th generation Accord creamed the competition. You will say anything to convince yourself how good the Sonata is. Despite what you say, the proof will only come in time. J. D. Power is a big joke. It's the award for companies who can't win a REAL AWARD."

    jd power is a big joke? well then so is car and driver. At least jd power is a survey of 100 owners vs 100 owners. And not about sale figures or glory days reputation.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    I have a pretty good idea of how the '06 Sonata will stand the test of time. How can that be? Because I have owned a Hyundai, a '01 model that was designed before Hyundai's push for quality began, for almost six years. I just sold it to my sister. When I sold it, it was rattle-free, as solid as the day I bought it (can't say the same for a $20k Mazda 626 that I own that is a little newer). The interior was like new. The engine was better than new--getting better fuel economy than when new, over 40 mpg on the highway. No serious problems during the 5-1/2 years of ownership. And the '04 Elantra I still own is doing even better. The most serious problem I've had with it in 2-1/2 years is condensation inside a headlamp cover.

    So I think I can reasonably extrapolate this experience to the '06 Sonata, which is a big jump ahead of that old Elantra in quality from everything I have experienced and read about it. Every bit of evidence shows that Hyundai has improved significantly in quality in the past six years, not gone backwards. The engines are designed to last 300,000 miles without a breakdown. The latest computer-assisted engineering and manufacturing techniques have been applied. Everything Hyundai has learned in the past six years has gone into making the Sonata a better car than the '01 Elantra. Thus I think there is a very high probability that the '06 Sonata will "stand the test of time." Is that a certainty? No; nor do we know for certain how cars like the '06 Accord and '07 Camry will hold up relative to the Sonata.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    What will Toyota/Honda have over the competition as consumers get smarter and realize they don't have to pay extra $$$ for a perceived reliabitliy/quality advantage? Reliability of vehicles is way up across the board from all automakers. In fact, reliability has virtually become a non-factor in the automotive industry. The new buzz word is "refinement".
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    You really nailed it scape2. There are no dogs in the mid sized segment!

    Manufacturers aren't stupid. They know they must produce a reliable product. Cars manufacturing has long been "mature". They all use the latest ISO standards. They all rely on proven technology, and learn from their own mistakes and the mistakes of others. Even without extensive R&D, there is enough advanced yet proven technology on the market to produce reliable, comfortable cars that will satisfy 80% of their market.

    The best cars in the segment are only slightly better than the worst, and then not even in all metrics. Much of it boils down to taste and perception. There will always be a few afficoanado's that will argue with this. They have been taken in by advertising hype, and some even believe that cars somehow have a "soul". It's fine for them to believe that, but I don't trust their advice. They tend to be too biased.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    If you guys really think Hyundais (specifically the Sonata) are so unreliable, then provide some support. Everything I have read so far - opinions without substance and factual evidence. Keep in mind the past does the equal the present, and in this case, it certainly holds true.

    And to whoever posted this - JD Power is a reputable recongition. Toyota/Hyundai/Honda all did very well from the recent IQS in the midsize segment. As a whole, Hyundai nameplate slightly topped Toyota/Honda - this should not discredit JD Power nor Toyota/Honda. All three automakers make great cars. Let's leave the igorance out please.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Flip side of that coin....

    When Hyundai decides to cashin on it's new found reliability and eliminates rebates/discounts..... ???
  • master1master1 Posts: 340
    I feel that the Accord and Camry is better than the Sonata because of their reliability history, performance, quality, and overall. I think that the Camry and Accord are more reliable than the Sonata, but some may feel differently about that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Why should Hyundai be unique in the industry and eliminate rebates and discounts?
  • ace35ace35 Posts: 131
    I feel that the Accord and Camry is better than the Sonata because of their reliability history, performance, quality, and overall. I think that the Camry and Accord are more reliable than the Sonata, but some may feel differently about that.

    Since the new camry is a total redesign this year, how can you predict its reliability. One can only hope it continues on with bullet proof reliability of past generations. I know the 4 cyl is a carry over, but the V6 and 6 spds are new so is the platform. So im my eyes the camry is pretty much sitting exactly where the Sonata is, a new unproven vehicle. While some will argue toyata's expertise at building vehicles, i will argue there's been some bugs already in the vehicle, so it appears the camry hasnt come out the gate bulletproof.
  • master1master1 Posts: 340
    I understand what you mean but I still feel that a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Hyundai Sonata, well, straightforward because it's a Toyota. They are known for having a good reliability record.
    But again, I understand what you by it having the possibility of having problems.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ;) The size of the discounts.

    Do you view equilibrium as a $5000 differential? $4000? $2000?
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I don't think Hyundai vehicles have to necessarily become the same price as their Toyota counterparts to say that they've "arrived".

    For example, all Lexus vehicles are $5000 to $10,000 cheaper than their Mercedes-Benz counterparts, but I think many Lexus vehicles are at least as good, sometimes even better.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Let's see... Honda dealers are already selling Accords for under invoice (due to manufacturer-to-dealer incentives). Toyota had rebates on the previous-gen Camry, and aggressive discounting was available on those also. Let the freshness of the '07 model wear off and those discounts/rebates will return. Ford offers major incentives on the Fusion and Milan, e.g. 0% financing plus $1000 free gas. So it looks like somewhere around $3000-4000 total off list price would be in equilibrium with some of the other major players.

    There is also the potential sales impact of the ending of the Hyundai Advantage warranty after the 2008 MY. That is the target previously set by HMA, but that of course could change.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    $2-3000 sounds about right, IMO.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    As long as you ignore current reality, sure. :)
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Flip side of that coin....
    When Hyundai decides to cashin on it's new found reliability and eliminates rebates/discounts..... ???


    What do you mean? The Sonata will always cost $5K less than comparably equipped Accords and Camrys. Hyundai has already stated they are aiming for for market share. What they don't make on outrageous per-unit profit, they will make up for in total units sold. Hyundai is the world leader in robot manufacturing and one of the top electronics manufacturers in the world. They know more about technology and automation than the rest put together. They should be great at the cutthroat pricing game from their years of experience in the world of low-margin electronics components manufacturing. (Said Bob, as he gazed into his beautiful Hyundai 19" flat panel monitor). :D
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    No new elantra, santa fe and still hyundai managed to come 6th. Before the elantra and santa fe which were pretty much the backbone in sales for hyundai outside of korea 2000 till 2004, i thin vw will wear the new sixth place by the end of this or next year.

    Hyundai may take a while to catch to #4 honda though anytime soon(maybe 2009 +) but being top 5 in automobile sales i think gives this company respect it has deathly worked for.

    Two cars everyone should be anticipating should be the affordable 08 tiburon and equus
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai will have to catch DCX first before catching VW (in the fourth spot). This was posted earlier.

    1 General Motors 8,381,805
    2 Toyota Motor Corp. 8,120,000
    3 Ford Motor Co. 6,208,700
    4 Volkswagen AG 5,242,793
    5 DaimlerChrysler AG 4,854,700
    6 Hyundai-Kia Group 3,715,095
    7 Nissan Motor Co. 3,597,748
    8 PSA/Peugeot-Citroen SA 3,390,000
    9 Honda Motor Co. 3,365,000
    10 Renault SA 2,533,428

    Honda is 9th, according to the list. Do you mean the US market?

    Additionally, I would also add "EN", a crossover, Tibby 'vert, Accent SR, Sonata variants, a sports wagon, etc. to the futures list...few unconfirmed at this point :)
  • ace35ace35 Posts: 131
    Two cars everyone should be anticipating should be the affordable 08 tiburon and equus

    I totally agree, isnt the Equus already on sale in another country ? is this the verison bound for the U.S. or will there be a redesigned model
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Equus is being sold in Hyundai's home market, South Korea. The upcoming model, destined for at least the US market, and dubbed as "BH" (Equus might not make it). The car will be RWD; 5er fighter (and other luxury midsize sedans) but undercut in price, of course :) (base high 30 to low 40).

    It will be competely different than the current model sold in the home market. The current model is FWD, and the upcoming "BH" is RWD.
  • ace35ace35 Posts: 131
    Thanx for the good info, sounds like a winner
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    OK all you Sonata lovers. Why don't you just admit that you were too much of a TIGHTWAD to buy a car with a PROVEN TRACK RECORD. So you bought the cheap imitation, hoping that it doesn't bite you later. I can't believe that with all the Hyundai preaching you have done, you still haven't convinced yourself.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    You are too much. That is like asking '06/'07 Accord and Camry buyers why they felt they had to overpay for the privilege to to play "follow the leader." Either question is absurd.
  • crazyfuzzcrazyfuzz Posts: 7
    Elroy5,

    I understand where you are coming from.... but imho, most of what draws me to the Hyundai Sonata more than Toyota Camry or Honda Accord is that you get a car which has most, if not, all the standard features (or even more depending on what you are looking for in the car). You get this, a better overall warranty, and of course you will be paying thousands less as well. Now... just taking into account these factors... I can't see why I would want to buy a Honda or Toyota. Yes I see where you are coming from in terms of proven track record, but understand Toyota and Honda had to go through the same or simular type of breaking through period. There cars kept getting better and better as years went buy. Hyundai is reaching the same ground as Honda and Toyota did way back then. As far as being a tightwad.... I guess some people see the value in saving money and purchasing a Sonata which very well could last as long or longer than its competitors. And then some people will pay the premium to have that proven track record... in the end its all about are you happy with your purchase 2, 5, or 10years from now.
  • tinyguytinyguy Posts: 44
    So much sarcasms in this forum... :(

    I personally have been a Honda fan for a long time. Been through couple of Civics and Accords - currently own two Hondas. Each time when it is time for me to switch to a new car, I test drove at least 5 models and analyse numbers(essentially the total ownership cost) to death before I purchase them. Each time, the answer was Honda.

    I have to admit, this is the first time I am seriously considering a non-Honda for a long time. Which manufacturer? Hyundai. In this case, it was Odyssey vs Entourage/Sedona (Currently tilting towards Entourage EX Leather over Odyssey EX-R). I have also compared Accord vs Sonata and I must admit it isn't an easy choice! If I had to choose now I would probably pick Accord EX V6 over Sonata GLS Premium (only $20 difference per month on a 4 year lease deal), but I have to admit, Sonata is much better than I expected!

    For those who are bashing on Hyundai - have you guys actually drove Sonata? Have you done any research on the net for some factual records over the past few years on Hyundai?
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Accord and Camry buyers get exactly what they pay for, PROVEN RELIABILITY. Sonata buyers get what they pay for too, THE "HOPE" OF RELIABILITY. My father was a tightwad too, (bought a Malibu) he's sorry he didn't listen to me now. You get what you pay for. You will learn too, the hard way.
  • tinyguytinyguy Posts: 44
    I've had 6 Hondas now - all bought new. Out of them, 4 were great, 1 was ok and 1 so-so. For some reason, I still weigh on Honda expecting stellar reliability despite my poor experience with 1.5 models. I guess I am a royal Honda fan, admiting I have been partially blind.

    In my opinion, there are risks purchasing all vehicles. Honda and Toyota gives you higher probability that you will have less trouble based on their track record. I am willing to bet that reliabiity gap between Accord and Sonana is much smaller than what some of you make it out to be. If they command same monthly payment, I would pick Accord as well since it is less likely to go wrong. But as a new vehicle, I like both just as much.
This discussion has been closed.