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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Again I was replying to the post that said "V6's just don't get much better than the Sonata's".

    "I have not read any review that says the Lambda lacks in anything regarding the competitors V6's."
    Here we go. You don't need to read it in a review, look at the numbers for hp and torque. You're going to say in a pure engine comparison, that the Lambda isn't lacking compared to the V6 in the Camry or Altima? I never said it does not compare. I am just saying that it isn't the best in its class and is outdone by several other entries. If Lambda is so good how come the Nissan VQ keeps walking away with the engine awards year after year after year? How come the reviews not only put the Camry as number one all the time but mention its engine as a significant reason why it is there. Sure the review will give the Sonata's engine a 7/10 but then will give the Camry a 10/10 as well as the Altima, and the Honda. Look at the numbers, they have no SUBJECTIVITY in them.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    HP/Torque:

    Sonata: 235/226
    Accord: 244/211
    Camry: 268/248
    Altima: 240/246
    Ford Engine: 265/250
    Aura: base V6: 224hp
    optional V6: 252hp
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    joe97, you've got to read the beginning of the discussion before posting because the over all car WAS NOT the discussion. It was strictly an engine comparison from its inception up until now.

    "safety, price, value, features, quality, reliablity"
    What in the world do they have to do with a strictly engine comparison? I never discredited the Sonata, I actually said that anything between 220 - 250 is adequate for the class and Toyota went overboard with the Camry engine. However, in a strict engine comparison, how can you not give Toyota a significant advantage over the Sonata? DOES THE SONATA'S ENGINE, NOT CAR, REALLY COMPETE WITH THE TOYOTA'S? :mad:
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Yeah, you doooooo like that car. Well I owned a Miata I liked.
    I did notice some high cost of repairs listed on this site:
    see on this page the Estimate Repair Costs
    They appear to be higher than all the others in the same class of cars. Don't know why. Suspension and joints cost = ouch!
    Kinda like the car, other than seeing the repair costs. Will interesting to see how the Fusion is, once that one is out a couple of years, and they have the data on that car.
    -Loren
  • derrado1derrado1 Posts: 194
    I'll tell you what, I never would have considered a Camry before the '07 model. The last generation was boring, dopey-looking, lumpy... Call it what you want, a Japanese Buick, an appliance.

    This new model though appears much more athletic, a MUCH better interior (finally, some symmetry! The '06 had a foul looking interior) and it appears as though it could actually handle.

    The old model, sure, good, reliable transport. But I would have taken pretty much anything over it.
  • ace35ace35 Posts: 131
    Ok the only thing you seem to be pointing out are hp/tq. #'s. My point was to say the Sonata V6 is a great engine on other merits, such as NVH, refinement,ect... so follow me here if you will. The Sonata engine is just as good as the others. I DID NOT SAY AS POWERFUL..!!! But its comparable to the camcords/altima, ect...

    And BTW these are midsize vehicles, so just because hyundai didnt stuff a 300 hp V6 in the Sonata does that make it less competitive ?

    Im sure just as honda fiddled with the 3.0L vtec to get more power hyundai can surely do the same with the 3.3L, but for what, it makes excellent power just as is.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Anyone owned a Hyundai with that 2.7 V6 for a number of years? Reliable? I looked at a Tiburon with V6, and kinda liked the car. Yes, not the HP of the rest talked about here, but it still seemed like it was spunky enough. Just wondering how it has worked out for people over time. I assume it has been in the sedans, like the Sonata, for awhile now. Any comments on smoothness? Gas mileage? Quirks?

    And on another train of thought. How about the looks of say the Sonata vs. Azera and the Altima vs. Maxima ? I know it is a lot of personal preference, but it seems like I am kinda liking the less expensive, looks wise, in both cases. Aside of luxury items and size - only the looks, is what I am talking about.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    the sonata comes in third place, because its cup holder is a little big? the driving position is unatural?? talk about nitpicking to the max to get this car to come third.

    They never mention about the engine really(cept the picture part where it states it is one of the best engines in the comparison), they do mention how well it is balanced between luxury and sport ride, it being the quietest on highway driving and braking(but mention it, like all of these things are sort of small potatoes in what consumers really want compared to a size of cupholders w)

    Sorry to say but that is ridiculous, how has a cupholder size has any sort of important significance compared to some nice brakes in waht a midsize cars essentials should be. This is beyond me

    Lstly where is the praise about the safety features? it is a generation behind since it benchmarked the camcord apparently to this writer(which is wrong when they benchmarked the audi a6 and lexus 330) yet this car can be the quietest on the highway compared to even a new camry. Doesn't make much sense how can a gen behind benchmark car be the quietest than a gen ahead car?

    Second opions were the most common sense aspect of thsi comparison test and both sr editiors lean towards choosing the sonata as the smart buy still and sounds like it was the silent winner of the test considering all realistic factors

    If anyone else knows a comparision of these three cars on other auto sites , please share.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Or they can use the 3.8 as an optional engine, though it would compete with their own Azera. Oh well, its all good! Even the i4 is plenty HP to get it done, except at the drag strip.
    -Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    the driving position is unatural?? talk about nitpicking to the max to get this car to come third.

    Interesting...I've actually noted one issue with the Sonata that I've heard time and time again, with many posters and testers, and that is that the seat/driving position is not particularly comfortable. That would kill a deal for me, except that I didn't notice it when I was behind the wheel. I didn't stay in it for long though, as the interior of the GLS I-4 model was not what I was looking for, simply put.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Yes, what of the driving position? What are they talking about? And the seats being less than the best. Should one opt. for the top of the line to get the lumbar support seats. Worth the extra bucks? Are the leather seats good - hot, as in not ventilated? Any long drive reports on the various seats available-- likes, and dislikes on the issue of Sonata seating?
    -Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Oh well, its all good! Even the i4 is plenty HP to get it done, except at the drag strip.

    Exactly!
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I forget the car now, as I have tried the seat in many, but it had a strange position. This car pointed me slightly to the left of center, like I was slightly looking towards that A pillar. That was strange. Some cars have that steering column which is slanted a bit - I think the old Mustang is that was before '05. I guess it doesn't matter, but it throws me at first. Anyway, I wonder if it was the Sonata that has the seat which is pointed to the left???
    -Loren
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    When you hear engine comparison, the main two factors are hp and torque. Look at the AMG and W12 engines. Look at the 3.5 IS350 engine. The reason the IS is what it is is because it gives you 305hp. Look at the Infiniti G35 or M45, they are hp rockets. With engines, those are the big critieria. They have been since before you and I were born and probably will be fair after we are gone. The Kia V6 is surely smoothe and quiet but it gives a measely 185hp, which is a major drawback that everyone agrees with.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    I thought when the Sonata was compared to a 3 Series pages back that I had heard it all. Now it is definitely gone up a notch. Now the fact that the Toyota makes more horse and torque and is basically just as queit, doesn't give it the edge in engines. The Sonata's is only marginally worse in a pure engine comparison. Every dead engine engineer and designer have rolled over several times tonight as during their lives they strived for more refinement and more power year after year. Toyota's V6 gives you more power, more refinement, and top gas mileage and still the Sonata's is just as good? Come on now, many people have stated that they no longer come to this forum because the posts about the Sonata are ridiculous and lack logic, sense, and reason. This again is a classic example. The moderated has even asked to change the subject from this car. This is a comparison forum, your car can't win in every aspect, just face it and call it a night. 268 compared to 234 isn't much of a logic tests as it has been made out to be.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Hey those G35 repair bills look pretty high...
    costs
    Perhaps they are looking at AWD models? Anyway, lots of repair areas look expensive. I guess you have the bucks to pay, or get a really good extended warranty. In this case warranty does pay! One really nice looking car in that coupe.
    Interesting how little is known of the new Accord. Big secret, and a well hidden test car. Wonder if it goes cab forward design too. Speaking of which, I liked the old 300M.
    -Loren
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    HP/Torque are not all. The average torque that is the peak torque over rpm is what makes a car move and driving dynamic. Do not get fooled by the game played by car makers. Here are the complete hard facts:

    BMW 330: 255HP6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
    Sonata :235 HP6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
    Camry: 268 HP6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
    Accord: 244HP6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm

    The very high average torque of BMW 330 makes it respond to the press of its acceleration pedal like a rabbit while both Camry and Accord are like a turtle. In other words, a BMW 330 driver feels the engine twice more powerful than when driving Accord V6. Sonata is more responsive than both Camry and Accord, but not near BMW. This is part of the reason that makes BMW a driving machine.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I am coming from a different standpoint. Yes, the Sonata engine isn't superior than others, but that's not to say the Lambda 3.3 isn't up to par with the rest of the class; as a matter of fact, very much so. While you are arguing purely on the power comparison, and I agree with you that there are cars run to the 60 faster, but my standpoint being, the majority of consumers in this class simply don't care about power - it is an irrelevant issue in this class. Again, if the customer focus is on power, then we would certainly be looking in a different segement. Consumers in this class want the whole package, need not be superior in every category but adequate enough for their likes. It's safe to say every car in the class accomplish the need for the various needs of customers - some excel in one area, while others excel in another.

    Let this particular topic close and let's move on to something applies more to the real-world.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Sonata: 235/226
    Accord: 244/211
    Camry: 268/248
    Altima: 240/246
    Ford Engine: 265/250
    Aura: base V6: 224hp
    Optional V6: 252hp


    Are you suggesting that I pay $6K more for 20-30 more HP, when the engine is no smoother or refined? That just makes me laugh, because I almost got the I4. :D :D :D

    I ended up getting the V6 because the I4 and V6 cost virtually the same, and the mileage was within 2-3mph.

    You need to quit saying that I think the Sonata's V6 is the best. I don't know which is best, but my money goes on Accord, by a narrow margin. The Sonata V6 is designed for 300K miles, but I only need 150K, so I think I should be OK, don't you? ;)
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    You made right decision in choosing Accord I4 over Accord V6 because both Accord I4 and Accord V6 have about the same average torque (=0.04 ft-lbs/rpm). When driving, you feel Accord I4 just as powerful as Accord V6. In other words, Accord I4 has about the same USEFUL HP as Accord V6.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "When driving, you feel Accord I4 just as powerful as Accord V6."

    This is just not true. If you drive them back to back, you'd know that the Accord V6 feels significantly more powerful than the 4 cyl.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    BMW 330: 255HP6600 rpm, 220 ft-lbs2750 rpm, average torque= 0.080 ft-lbs/rpm
    Sonata :235 HP6000rpm, 226 ft-lbs3500 rpm, average torque=0.065 ft-lbs/rpm
    Camry: 268 HP6200 rpm, 248 ft-lbs4700 rpm, average torque = 0.053 ft-lbs/rpm
    Accord: 244HP6224rpm, 211 ft-lbs5000 rpm, average torque = 0.041 ft-lbs/rpm


    Average torque? It really doesn't work that way. Let's take an example. The Camry makes 248 lb*ft at 4700 rpm, but that is peak torque. These engines have pretty flat torque curves. The Camry probably makes at least 240 lb*ft at 3500 rpm.

    Another example is the IS350. Peak torque is rated at 277 lb*ft at 4800 rpm. But the published torque curves show that it makes about 92% (255 lb*ft) of its peak torque at 2300 rpm.
    -------------

    Overall, I'd rate the Camry V6 as marginally better than the Altima V6, which is marginally better than the Accord V6 and Sonata V6 (tie). But just marginally in all cases. They are all excellent engines.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    driverdm wrote: "he Kia V6 is surely smoothe and quiet but it gives a measely 185hp, which is a major drawback that everyone agrees with."

    First of all, I think this has veered way of topic. If we want to dicuss 300+HP engines, everyone needs take these discussions to another thread. A 300+HP engine in a reasonably-priced midsize family sedan is an oxymoron.

    And, who in the heck needs it anyway. A 185HP V6 in a car the size of the Kia Optima is plenty of power for any reaasonable human being. My Dodge Grand Caravan only has a 150HP V6 and it's served me very well for a long time, and look at the weight differential between it and an Optima! But then again, I'm not a boy racer-type either.

    I find this discussion of high HP engines somewhat superflous, especially in view of ever increasing gasoline prices. Next thing, I suppose we will come across discussions of the 1250HP Bugatti on this thread!
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    Man - listen to all this trivial nonsensical BS about everyday sedans. They're all good (well except for the Malibu or Impala which are caught in a time warp of design and engineering). Lets hand it to the Koreans who have figured out how to play in the CamCord game with a smaller ante. And Ford tweaking their FMZs to respond to criticism about where their cars needed to be.

    Toyota's latest Camry doesn't seem to be that big of a response to the Koreans - the engineering/tooling probably was started well before the 06 Sonata debuted. That leaves the new Accord as the real chance to show the world how to dominate this sector for a few more years (cause the 06 Accord is wheezing from a 5-6 year old design).

    Time will tell. The Koreans may finally decide to stop giving away their Sonata - or they may catch an errant scud from their northern neighbors. That would leave a mark.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Posts: 1,564
    I am sure that Sonatas come standard with Scud resistant paint, right?

    Or perhaps, the Sonata with a V-6 is capable of outrunning a Scud. :P
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    "When driving, you feel Accord I4 just as powerful as Accord V6. In other words, Accord I4 has about the same USEFUL HP as Accord V6."

    Have you driven the Accord I-4 and V6?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    In other words, Accord I4 has about the same USEFUL HP as Accord V6.

    Well, not really. When at higher speeds, I can really tell a HUGE difference in the two engines when I punch it. At higher RPMs is where both engines shine, but the V-6 definitely outshines the 4-cylinder in high-rpm pull, as well as around town grunt. It should, it's nearly 80 horsepower difference.
  • 03accordman03accordman Posts: 671
    There is a big difference right off the line between the V6 and the I4.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,089
    <Average torque? It really doesn't work that way. Let's take an example. The Camry makes 248 lb*ft at 4700 rpm, but that is peak torque. These engines have pretty flat torque curves. The Camry probably makes at least 240 lb*ft at 3500 rpm.


    Do you have a graph of the torque curve for that motor? Otherwise you're guessing; peak torque is just that. Torque at typical driving speeds and motor speeds for leaving stopsigns and stoplights is what most people "feel" when driving the car.

    Do you have a link to a torque graph?
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I have a graph of the IS350 torque curve, which show that 92% of the peak torque is made at less than half the peak torque rpm (2300 rpm). I can't link to it because it is in another forum, but you should find it easily with a google search.

    I haven't found any graphs for the Camry, but it is a less potent version of the same GR engine.

    In many of today's engines, the engine makes nearly the peak torque in the 2xxx range, then slowly creeps up or plateaus.
This discussion has been closed.