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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    With the demand for navigation, especially the passion expressed in forums, you'd think people can't go to Mapquest as easily as they can Edmunds. :P
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Here you will appreciate this from the european Ins Inst.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/link.html?http://www.euroncap.com/content/safety_r- - atings/introduction.php

    The recommendation is that Europeans should never buy a vehicle that doesn't have Stability Control. Click Recommendation then click the links.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Stability control will help you out in a swerving accident situation by applying brakes to individual wheels to correct the swerve. It compensates for over steering and under steering. I have been in a couple situations where me and the Mazda6 (named Kecia) have had to swerve to avoid an accident and been fine doing so. The Mazda6 dances around the road at a touch of the wheel. ESC doesn't move my buying decision. I am more worried about skidding into something on these New England roads in the winter or being hit by some fool working his navigation screen or readiing while driving. I can see why someone would want it, it just doesn't move the needle for me.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    I know some studies have been posted, if not here someplace in Town Hall, about the benefits of ESC in accident avoidance. I think the IIHS did some work on that.

    Here's a few links about ESC for you:

    NHTSA

    NHTSA ESC Research

    IIHS Report(pdf)
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    I have been in a couple situations where me and the Mazda6 (named Kecia) have had to swerve to avoid an accident and been fine doing so. The Mazda6 dances around the road at a touch of the wheel. ESC doesn't move my buying decision.

    Amen. I'm not one who will add ESC as an option to a car (most of them anyway) because I don't feel it's worth it in one regardless of what the studies show. Does my SUV have it? You bet! Buy my Mazda6 does not and it's superb handling and braking more than compensate for my and other's errors.

    I'd really be annoyed if I added it and it intruded too much ruining the driving experience. Hear that Toyota?! :P
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I would be very surprised if the Milan/Fusion has a better resale value than Sonata. In fact, I would be astounded. "Foreign" cars have better resale value than "domestic". A 5 year-old Sonata could have a lot of warranty left, the Milan/Fusion will have none. I can't even imagine it. You'll have to show me more than half-baked theories and projections.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    ESC is not intrusive at all. It doesn't even activate unless you skid. If you like to autocross, simply turn ESC off. ESC can be a life saver even for hot-shot macho drivers. If you think about it, every serious accident is totally unexpected. The NHSTA statistics are very revealing, surprised even me. The data shows that ESC can save hundreds of lives and injuries annually. Avoided accidents aren't even listed, and could be very high. I wouldn't be surprised if insurance rates go down on vehicles with ESC. ESC may even be mandatory just like seat belts some day.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Actually it is very unlikely a Sonata will have any warranty left, in a resale situation, after 5 years. Unless a transferrable extended warranty was purchased.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I think the "intrusive" note was regarding some test reports on the new Camry (C/D?) that complained the VSC was too intrusive. Probably too "intrusive" for these auto mag editors who run up and down mountain passes, but I would expect not too intrusive for the vast majority of the target market of the Camry.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Actually it is very unlikely a Sonata will have any warranty left, in a resale situation, after 5 years. Unless a transferrable extended warranty was purchased.

    It's even less likely I would sell a car with 5 years left on the warranty! :D
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Yesterday, my Hyundai Sonata that I've had for 10 days (a rental from Hertz with just over 1200 miles on the odo), decided that Reverse and Park were no longer appropriate options. The gear shift is stuck in Neutral, with the option to move to drive, but that's.

    It almost seems as though something is wrong with the brake interlock; the brake lights are activated all the time, regardless of pressure on the brakes. Whatever the case, I had to taxi to work and will work out the issue with Hertz later tonight. (The key cannot be removed from the ignition, either.)

    This saddens me- its the fourth Sonata I've had since January and fifth Hyundai (I had a jazzy Azera two calendar weeks ago). All of them served very well, save this recent Sonata.

    Any thoughts, or experience like this one?
    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Don't be too sad... it's a rental car, and it can be fixed.

    I know some trannies have a "limp home" mode that puts it into 2nd gear--had that happen once on a Grand Caravan when a sensor went out. A problem with the brake interlock sounds right, since the key cannot be removed.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Alpha1, it sounds like it went into "safe mode". It's probably something very simple, but it could be complete computer failure?
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    "I would be very surprised if the Milan/Fusion has a better resale value than Sonata. I would be astounded. "Foreign" cars have better resale value than "domestic". "

    Resale values are the product of a couple factors which has been proven by numerous articles with Ford, Toyota, Honda, VW, and GM (too name a few) stating that it is the product of fleet sales and incentives that have the most affect on resale values. Also included in that is demand on used vehicles. Whether a car is domestic r foreign has nothing really to do with it. What has happened to make it seem that way is that foreign cars usually have less incentive, less fleet sales, and higher demand than domestics. The Sonata has had far higher fleet sales and incentives than the Fusion. In fact, I would dare say that the year old Fusion resale is higher than the year old Sonata right now because of the high incentives. If you bought your new Sonata when it came out last year it was $20K, now the same car could be had last month for $17K. The used car retail has to be under $17K for the car you paid $20K for or you'd just buy a new one. The Fusion doesn't have those issues and right now, demand is very close to supply. It had $1K rebate when it came out and it has $1K rebate now.

    It's not as much theories and projections as it is how the used car market works. If you can't believe in Ford and GM, then believe in VW and Honda who have all said the same thing.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Too piggy back off of backy. Not just the Camry review faults Toyota's VSC but any review of any Lexus product has that as a weakness. There are many people who test drove both the BMW and the IS and felt the difference.

    I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?

    Me and Kecia danced around a Tahoe this morning, even in the rain. I think ESC is a great feature but it just doesn't move the needle for me. Yes, the insurance institute's findings are great, but liek I said before there is all types of new technology that is great on safety in tests. Like the brakes that brake for you if they detect an eminant accident, or the pedals that move, or several other new safety technology. It just doesn't move the needle for me anymore. Side air bags, now that is something that could move the needle. Like I said, I fear more someone running into me then me swerving into an accident.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    People who buy a brand-new model, whether it be a Sonata or Camry or whatever, at near full price should expect to take a bath when they sell it. That is what they paid to be the first on their block with the latest-and-greatest.

    I just laughed to myself when I heard about some dealers selling the all-new Sonata and then the new Azera for list price or more. And some folks bought at that price! The wiser buyers waited.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I am sad though, b/c its an enjoyable car to drive and ride in (not saying its sporty, but it is enjoyable), and its a MAJOR inconvience. Even if it is in "limp-home" mode, the issue was only discovered (by my colleague, I actually wasnt driving it) upon parking in our corporate apartment garage... head in... against a concrete wall. No reverse leaves very few options except a tow truck... I just dont have time for the pain of coordinating Hertz's efforts!

    :P

    But yea, glad its not mine.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I don't know if ESC only comes on when you are skidding. Doesn't it also come on in heavy cornering?

    No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    driverdm, That's a whole lot of words to explain a simple thing like resale value. I don't think the average used car buyer would have any idea about what you are talking about. If I were a used car salesman or appraiser, I would take all of your wisdom into consideration. But I only need to sell 1 car every 10 years, and it's not that hard to get the price you want. If a car is clean, looks nice, drives nice, and has a solid reputation, it will fetch a fair price. The last car I sold was 11 years old, and worth practically nothing according to "conventional wisdom". I got a very good price for it because the owner was pleased that it was a "1 owner car and well taken care of", ran perfectly, and looked very nice. I have even been bugged by people for 2-3 years asking me to "let me know when you want to sell that car". Oops! That's a lot of words. Sorry! :blush:
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    No, unless you lose control. The professional drivers can live on the edge of 'loss of control' but not your everyday driver with family in the car.

    That's not entirely true. Some systems have been noted as coming on too early and ruining some fun. Even the system in our '06 Explorer has been harped on about that but it's an SUV, what do they expect?

    Someone else said you can always turn it off. Well that's not always true either. Some systems still remain on even when you supposedly deactivated them. Toyota comes to mind again IIRC.

    Maybe it's because of where and how I drive, I just don't see the need for ESC in most cars. Side air bags and curtains, ABS, door beams, I'll gladly pay for.
This discussion has been closed.