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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    Best way to determine projected resale value when there is no history on a particular model, is to look at the leasing residuals. According to Hyundai Motor Finance Corp., the Azera's projected depreciation over 2 years is more than 50% which unfortunately is way higher than the competitors.
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    Sheesh! You guys are hard to please! I give the Avalon a bad review and you guys get mad at me. Now I give the Altima a good review and you guys are mad at me again!

    I wish I could believe that my Avalon experience was atypical, but there are many similar accounts of the problems Avalons are experiencing - not just on Edmunds but on Toyotanation and other forums too. When there is smoke there is fire. Camry's new 6-speed problems are further testimony that Toyota is going through a less than stellar period. Tough to accept - it was tough for me too. Maybe you'll get lucky and get a good one, maybe you won't and you'll get stuck with a bad one. Do you want to take that increased chance when you spend around $30K or more, on a new car?

    I have been called many different names while reporting my Avalon experience, but take into account that I had many Toyotas previously and was a very loyal Toyota owner until the Avalon set new lows in quality. We used to turn in Toyotas at the end of their leases and lease new ones without even looking at the competition, but our last Sienna also started showing some chinks in Toyota's armor.

    I'm not going to belabor the point but when a lower-cost car like the Altima is better built and has better engineered electromechanical systems than the Avalon, one has to question... The Altima and Accord certainly don't have the proliferation of similar problems reported by multiple owners littering these forums as the Avalon does.

    I am not going to make further posts on the Avalon. This is not the forum for it and I'm pretty tired of the subject anyway. If you think I'm nuts for singing the praises of the very worthy Altima, you are entitled to your opinion!

    Check Nissan financial statements and you will see what I mean about Nissan's current financial position.

    Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to take the Altima out for a run!
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Thanks for the reply. I'm not a fan of leasing and think, for most people, it is a bad deal.

    Maybe I don't understand the residual value. But, the dealer I bought my '05 Sonata from last April is retailing used Sonata's equipted exactly as mine, with 20,000 miles for only $1,000 less than I paid for mine. If I understand residual value, I don't see the Azera losing over 50% of value in two years.
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    I think you misunderstood me. Even if you are not leasing, looking at the leasing residuals is a very good way to determine estimated future resale values.

    The leasing companies estimate the value of the vehicle at the end of a lease period (residual) and these values are revised monthly to be as close to actual market value as possible. The lessee pays for the depreciation over the term of the lease, but that is not the purpose of this discussion.

    When a new vehicle like the Azera hits the market, it is tough to estimate the future value, so the previous model is used as a basis until real-life market values can be progressively used over time.

    In the case of the Azera and the Sonata, their projected market values are being based on the old models. My personal opinion is that these new Hyundais are so much better than their predecessors and will in fact have higher resale values than the finance companies are forecasting, but at this point in time, from an estimated total-cost-of-ownership perspective, the Hyundais are higher than the competition.

    Right now it is a bit of a gamble as to how the market will accept the new generation of Hyundais, but if they turn out to be reliable and give the competitors the spanking I think they will, these cars are going to be in demand in a few years and worth quite a bit more at resale time than currently forecasted.
  • tncarmantncarman Posts: 82
    Ok, I found this really weird. I read some list somewhere that said the new Impala sells better than the Honda Accord. Not Camry or anything, but I find that hard to believe. Is that right or is the list just crazy. 'Cause if its right, GM is coming back, now just give us the Aura already...
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    I read that the top 4 best sellers in the US are:

    1. Camry
    2. Accord
    3. Impala
    4. Altima

    Impala just pushed Altima out from 3rd place.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    The maxima is anyways almost an infinity so its very well made. Now the new altima may alot of infinity in terms of quality and other things. Because honestly 02-05 altima had an awsome engine but interior pieces fall off, emergency brakes brake, trasmission jumpy. I know this because my sister has an SER and two of my friends who own a inline 4 altima have made the same complaints.

    The new altima though looks great, and makes the maxima look sort of redundant.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    This could be a darkhorse midsize. This is a european car in the purest sense

    I like its style alot, should be sporty, handles well, cheapers than camcord(i mean which mid size car aint) and its basically an opel which is quite reliable.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    :P The Canton, MS plant may suck up all the bucket loads of cash that Nissan generated from elsewhere. Now that is one HUGE black hole of automotive mis-production.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    these cars are going to be in demand in a few years and worth quite a bit more at resale time than currently forecasted.

    I think you are expecting a lot from one generation of a car. Especially when some people (who are going to buy a car in a few years) don't even know the Hyundai Sonata exists. The average Joe test drives maybe two cars, and the chances of one of them being a Sonata are not that great. Not saying it's fair, just the way I see it. That's what a reputation will get you, in the car business. People who know "next to nothing" about cars, have heard of the Camry and Accord.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    This is not surprising. The Impala interior gets great reviews. Styling is also pretty mainstream. Value once again. You can get one for quiet a bit less than a Honda or Camry..
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    Can't disagree with you there. The Nissan Smyrna TN plant was rated one of the best in North America and the Canton MS plant was rated the worst. I wouldn't buy a car made there. I made sure mine came from Smyrna. Apparently Nissan has hired away some quality control consultants from Toyota to work on the Canton problems. (Perhaps the one that was supposed to have worked on my Avalon ;) )
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    There is nothing other than 160 instances of mis-manufactured 6 spd trannys in one specific run of XLE's that have any issues.

    The 5 speed Avalon V6's have performance issues which while annoying are not safety issues. They do need to be addressed in order to improve the quality of the driving experience but that's it.

    Other than that, it's a matter of fragile paint if a stone hits the front and occassional rattle's which both of which are only annoying.

    I personally do dislike the Avy's Navi interface but that's a subjective issue not a qualitative issue. It's like disliking a color.

    BTW.. The current Altima is a poor 4th to the Camry, Accord, and Sonata and probably the Fulans. It will never be in the class of the Avalon or the Azera or the new XLE V6 Camry.

    The new '07 is yet to be seen in person. Nissan's recent performance ( Canton ) is not encouraging though.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I know the host hates this because it's not about the cars themseleve but it is about the cars..

    YTD sales
    Camry
    Corolla
    Civic
    Accord
    Malibu/G6
    Impala

    Altima
    Taurus
    Fu-lans

    GM 'sells' a lot of midsized vehicles
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    Actually, the relatively low volume of the Sonata and Azera may work to their advantage and drive the resale values up. It is all governed by the laws of supply and demand.

    If demand is high and supply is low, the price goes up.
    If demand is high and supply is high, the price goes down.
    If demand is low and supply is low, price goes - well nowhere really.
    If demand is low and supply is high, price goes down the toilet.

    Take the Camry for example. Everyone thinks that the Camry has a high resale value, but it is a victim of its own success. Everyone wants a good used Camry but try to get a reasonable trade-in or decent dollars selling privately when there are thousands of similar cars available - you can't. Accord sells in lower volumes and is also in demand as a used car - but has a higher value.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    All of this is exactly correct in regards to resales.
  • billybob8billybob8 Posts: 7
    I'm disappointed that you took my comments as "being mad at you". Wasn't intended. I just wanted to acknowledge the very professional review of your Altima, and let you know why I didn't choose one. You certainly seem as passionate in favor of the Altima as you were in dissing the Avalon you hated. (Personally, I'm wondering if you realize how much your assessments of both look like opposing obsessions!!) I certainly don't agree with your arbitrary claim (based on your experience and some anecdotal comments in cartalk forums) that Toyota is slipping in quality because of what is being posted in these forums. I think far more empirical evidence than that would be necessary in order to support such opinions.
    No doubt in my mind your Av had problems which were exraordinary, but way beyond the norm. (I also felt your condemnation of that marque also went beyond the norm!!)
    BTW, I didn't purchase an Avalon because it wasn't in the price range I was into in my research, but if it had been, the Av would have been a serious contender for sure!
    I also question your blanket statement about the fiscal health of Nissan. A recent(April)article to the contrary in Financial Post says you're way off base in claiming they're in good shape. Add to this an announcement(just today) that Nissan sales in Japan are down 34 percent and sinking fast!! A pretty picture this isn't!!
    The owner's manual recommends premium fuel BTW, and in the past, these products weren't noted for the best quality--I hope this changes in future.
    All said, I wish you continued satisfaction with your new Altima.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    but try to get a reasonable trade-in or decent dollars selling privately when there are thousands of similar cars available - you can't

    This is silly. You can't get a reasonable trade-in on a Camry? Maybe you can't. I did last summer on 2000 LE with 86000 miles in 'good' condition. Dealer said they'd sell my trade on their lot within a few days after the car was detailed and prepped for resale.

    The Camry resale value is one of it's main selling points today, and for good reason - its true.
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    billybob: Thanks for your post. Agreed that the financial statements today are not great. It wouldn't be the first time that earnings are "restated" or "corrected". I can't figure why creative accounting seems to dominate modern business and "restatements" have become the norm. That's what happens when the stock market becomes the "customer" and sight of the real customer has been lost.
    ...off topic.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'm not convinced that Infiniti is any better than Nissan (they are the same company, after-all). I sat in several different Nissans/Infinitis at the International Auto Show last fall and every last one of them felt cheap to me (this coing from a Honda owner, so I'm spoiled by interior quality, keep in mind). I sat in a Frontier pickup and thought, "not bad, especially considering it's only $18k. Then i sat in a QX56 SUV (well above $50,000) and it had the same exact cheap feeling to it! It was really sad, because I like Nissan's platform of driving excitement and sportiness, but I could never buy a car that feels cheaper than my 10 year old (soon to be 11) Honda Accord LX, and that Infiniti SUV certainly felt cheaper.
This discussion has been closed.