Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

w9cw

kdhspyder wrote: "As noted above, this in comparison to two separate Chryslers I had in the 90's one of which required a $2500 tranny and the other major work both at under 50,000 mi. On those I did not get my money's worth."

Preventive maintenance is the key with all automobiles, of course. In my case, our 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan ES - the one with the infamously bad 4-speed ECT - is now at 160,538 miles and on the original transmission, plus no engine work as yet. Use Mobil 1 5W-30, change every 3K/3 months, and change ATF every 20K. Even Detroit iron can even be cost-effective and reliable when cared for. And, should the transmission finally fail, it can be replaced for $1,500. Not bad, considering the only engine-related mechanical repair in 12 years was a starter, and I replaced that myself for $72.

kdhspyder

My interlocateur is deeply annoyed by everything Toyota. It's continued success is incomprehensible to him, in many different forums here. But that's OK. It is what it is and life goes on. Luckily we all have the free choice to spend our money in the way we wish on the products we wish.

elroy5

Who the heck is your interlocateur? And what has Toyota done to him? :confuse:

akirby

I don't have anything against Toyota, or the Camry in particular. I'm just sick and tired of the Camcord defenders claiming superiority while ignoring or explaining away all objective data to the contrary.

Why do the Toyota lovers refuse to accept that the Fusion could be more reliable than the Camry?

bhmr59

You're lucky with that Chrysler tranny. I had a '91 Lebaron GTC convertible. Great car, crummy tranny. The original let go at about 56K miles, shortly before the 7 yr warranty ran out. Dealer "took care of me" and waived the $100 deductible (big deal). The replacement was a rebuilt, not a new one. The replacement "blew" just under the milage limit but about 5 months after the "months limit." Second replacement cost me about $1700, 1st replacement was too old for its warranty. (What if I had a second home and had been away for 6 months. It's not that there were years involved where seals or rubber could age.)

This third tranny was absolute crap. Any time the temp was below 55, which is 5 or 6 months a year in CT, the car would fail to up shift until about 4K rpm or would down shift while cruising on a realtively level road. I mean DOWNSHIFT, like from overdrive on the highway to 3rd gear while cruising at a nice steady 55 to 60 mph. The tach would jump from about 2K to over 4K and keep going back & forth. Like being in a rocking chair.

I complained about the third tranny within a week of its being installed. Dealer checked it out and service dept told me that everything met factory specs.

When that 3rd tranny problem became more pronounced in Oct., '04 I knew it was time to look for another car. (It was fine for about 6 months of the year, but once cooler weather set in, forget it.) I joked with friends, that as a convertible, it only liked warm weather.

In April, '05 I bought a Sonata GLS Special Edition and have not had a single problem in close to 12K miles. Sold the Lebaron to a friend, dirt cheap, after writing down all that I knew needed to be done to make the car "right" and insisting he take it to a mechanic to be checked. He bought it in May and loved it. Fortunately or unfortunately, someone hit him and totaled it in October before the cold weather set in and he had to deal with the cold weather tranny.

My parents and my wife & I had purchased nine Chrysler cars from 1968 to 1991.

venus537

I ended up with a 6 cyl 6 demonstrator with a couple thousand miles on it for $18,935 out the door."

You shouldn't expect to pay anything near new car prices for a car with 2K miles. Not one that was used by tons of people.

elroy5

Why do the Toyota lovers refuse to accept that the Fusion could be more reliable than the Camry?

I think Camry buyers, and Accord buyers have had domestic cars in the past, and were disappointed with them. Now they are satisfied with their cars, and will not switch back to domestics until they become dissatisfied with their Camrys or Accords. The domestic brands have created this situation by producing inferior products in the 80s and 90s. We are creatures of habit. When we find something we like, we tend to stick with it. The domestic companies have made their bed, now they have to lie in it.

jimmy81

Why do the Toyota lovers refuse to accept that the Fusion could be more reliable than the Camry?

When a Fusion can hang up the kind of stats Camry has done for many, many, many years then we'll take note. It just ain't gonna happen in this lifetime chief.

The Fusion has a one year heritage. Altho apparently good enough for you, its doubtful its good enough for the rest of the world.

lilengineerboy

"And eventually all transmissions do fail."

Well, automatics do. I have yet to replace a manual transmission in a 200k Civic, a 180k Galant, a 150k Contour, or a 135k Accord. The Galant got a clutch but given the number of people that learned to drive stick on that car, I am okay with the $450 expenditure.

Yikes, $3500 for an auto tranny? NO thanks.

thegraduate

My friend at church had say goodbye because his car was creamed in a parking lot. It lived a good life, wrecked once before but fixed beautifully, and had very good life left in the interior. The engine was still running great; not an oil burner, and the only thing it did was eat tires (inherent alignment problem never fixed). He said he wasn't sure of the exact mileage, but the sticker on the windshield to remind him to get his oil changed said 242,000 miles. Very sad.

venus537

"Why do the Toyota lovers refuse to accept that the Fusion could be more reliable than the Camry"

Though I'm not a Toyota lover I'll accept it. Good for Ford.

Funny how Consumer Reports gets referenced by those who normally don't believe in their reliability findings.

venus537

"Why is there no name on this post?"

Does it matter? Don't tell me you don't instantly recognize who the author is.

mfletou1

I am? Really? You know this how?

Actually, I'm comparing them to the 2001, 2002 and 2004 GM vehicles I've purchased.

I don't think the Fusion will fall apart. I also don't understand how you or anybody else could possibly claim that its as reliable as the Camry or Accord based on one year's worth of data. Things happen. Initial reliability in almost every new vehicles is very good, long term reliability is a different question. The Fusion may indeed match Camcord, but NOBODY knows that yet.

I didn't say there wasn't a price advantage--I said its not as much as people think. I stand by that. I had 5 offers lined up to buy a top of the line Accord EX V6 (everything but nav) for under $24k. 5. I never even left my computer to get them (though I did go through the process at a dealer before deciding against it). Sure, I could have gotten a Fusion for a little under that, but I found the Accord to be a better car based on interior quality and engine. I'm not saying the Fusion's V6 isn't adquate, but its a low-tech engine.

You all know the route I ended up taking, which was the Camry Hybrid. Its pretty significant to me that my car can hang with a Fusion only get 10-15 better mpg doing it. (MT just long term'ed a Camry Hybrid and got a 7.7 0-60 run, btw). Thanks to a tax credit, I paid $24 for my car, which includes a sunroof, bluetooth, a 440 watt 6 disc stereo system that, according to Edmunds is best in this class, an ignition free smart key system, and countless other features. I drive 20k+ a year, I'm saving a ton of money on gas.

Did I outlay more yes? But I'll get a corresponding amount back when I sell it--(and that was my point about value with these cars...I never understood that, somebody bragging about paying $5k less for a car...well, news flash, when you get rid of it, you also get $5k less for it).

There are subjective things like styling (I like the Fusion, I love the Camry), interior design and quality (I think the Camry's interior is just more modern), and various differences in features. That stuff is hard to argue about because it means personal choices.

One final think--can we please stop pretending people aren't buying Camry's? Some guy's local dealer has a big inventory, so obviously Camry must be getting its butt kicked by the Fusion right? C'mon, thats a joke and most of you know it. Camry's sales are up 3.4% over last year and that's on less inventory and with far less discounting going on. Oh---and last year this was the best selling car in America, with lower fleet ratios than its closet competitors save the Accord. So lets just knock that off, it ruins your credibility.

zzzoom6

I found the same to be true when buying my car... the accord and legacy were very nice cars, but I couldn't justify spending more for a car that didn't handle as well (suspension, braking, steering, tcs) nor look as nice. As some have pointed out before, the fact that you can get a mazda 6 for 7k or even 8k under msrp isn't saying much for how popular this car is, but it certainly benefits those who are in the market for a car that can be driven in comfort and/or spiritedly depending on the driver's mood. And it's also nice that I don't see mazda 6's everywhere also... a bit more unique in a sea of camcordota's.

kdshapiro

"As some have pointed out before, the fact that you can get a mazda 6 for 7k or even 8k under msrp isn't saying much for how popular this car is,"

What it says, Mazda overpriced the car. The Mazda 6 is nowhere (IMO) as polished as an Accord. Pay less get less.

imidazol97

You are kidding, of course, that having more computers is an excuse for the engineering/programming/service problems with the Toyota Camry and some predecessor car's problems. I was just reading over in a toyota discussion that's a nation about someone with a car that felt like it was going sideways when he puts it into the garage. He was told that was a safety feature at the dealership--to keep a car hitting parked cars instead of oncoming traffic! Your comment ranks right there.

Admit it, the sales keep going up because of image. I realize it's difficult to do that but I drive all cars when I shop and the two HOToys I drove each left me underimpressed. The salesmen (emphasis on the "sales") were talking a mile a minute. But reality is there failure problems that require recalls are showing more normal car build on their part.

It's okay to admit that Hyundai is making great inroads. They don't overcharge. I looked at the midsized Hyundai Sonta which had been mentioned often in this group. It fits right in other than I was looking at the standard version in the showroom. I didn't see an Azera while I was in there.

All the computers from BMW/MB/Toy/Hond are great. I recalls the CCR from GM that's been around on High Line models for years and is on the Lucerne CXS model, e.g., so there are more than 4 companies with computer capability.

>A mechanic with a wrench could do a lot to fix whatever ailed the more basic cars of that ancient era. Now an electronic specialist is required.

Kind of ironic the electronic specialists from Toyota Camry can't seem to fix the problems, on the 4000000 cars sold so far?

kdshapiro

As much as I'm a limited fan of Toyota/Lexus products, they are on a roll. The buying public has spoken, they like Toyota products. If Toyota makes a mistake, they will try to rectify it. Maybe 100% of the people won't be happy, but that's the way it works in the automotive biz.

As far as the comment on overcharging, one person's high-end is another person's low-end. Value is in the eyes of the beholder.

jimmy81

Hey - the Mazda 6 ain't some kind of handling miracle. I drove my sister's for a week when she was away in Hawaii and it didn't impress me that it was any better than an Accord. In fact I'd rather have the Accord. A much tighter machine. And not as quirky as a Mazda 6.

akirby

I'm not suggesting anyone who is happy with a Camcord rush to buy a Fusion. I'm not suggesting that the other vehicles are bad vehicles or that the Fusion is superior to any of them. I realize it will take some time for people who were burned by Ford in the past to trust them again.

The problem is the Camcord lovers take their subjective opinions and make objective statements out of them that simply aren't true. Let's argue about styling, comfort, ride, handling, features and price because that's the only real differences here, not reliability.

imidazol97

Most of the people complain about their GM or other car they bought 10 years ago or more years ago and justify their purchase choices today. The foreign brands I saw 10-15 years ago left me totally unimpressed with their minimization, some more than others, and their primary function of basic transportation was well-served however.

People extrapolate those choices and experiences to today, just what you said. A friend of ours replaced her rather junky 95 Civic 4 dr and didn't shop other than the Honda deal quickly and the Toyota deal ripoff in our area. She completely bought based on fear of every other car. She could have chosen, Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Toyota Lexus, Saturn, Honda Acura but she was total afraid of anything but the two friends through the years had told her were the best.

Don't mention that her 95 Honda with 80K on it wouldn't start two times in the previous 6 months (it's garaged most of the time), and was rusting behind the rear wheels (poor design like many other cars have for rust pockets and metal quality), headliner falling down for years, rough idle, and some other items. She just wanted to buy her car and wanted to skip negotiating and shopping. An area toyo dealer is advertising heavily to make conquest sales into the W. Ohio area at expense of Dayton dealers.

She still won't admit she bought other people's cars not her own and that she probably would have been better served by other choices for service treatment and cost especially. Her dealer has her coming back in for a 3000 mile oil change!!! Don't the Corollas come with "special Toyota breakin oil" like the Hondas do that can't be changed for 10,000 miles to insure the motors breakin properly?

That all goes back to dealer quality management as in the JDPowers sampling.

imidazol97

Saw a Saturn Aura again on the road at a gas station. Very nice looking. I'll have to stop at one of the Saturn dealers today if they're open.

tinatina

I saw it at the autoshow and it looked very nice. I was not too impressed with the new Altima with the front end. Also, the car visually appears a lot smaller than its predecessor. I actually like the previous generation better.

The buzz at the auto show appeared to be with the Honda CRV (a bit off topic). Honda is on a roll with this vehicle and last year's new Civic. Also, the new Lexus LS - wow!!!!

kdhspyder

There is nothing against the Fusion as a vehicle. In several posts back int his forum I've said always that it's certainly a fine vehicle based on 1st yr results. The styling is right up there and the buyers seem to like it. What I've always said though is that Ford Corporate is devaluing the what is otherwise a great vehicle.

It's Ford's midsize flagship:
.. Ford Corporate somehow has missed the massive sea change over the past 15 years that the American midsize buyer wants an ultra capable 4c engine!!! Most midsized cars are 4c..the Fusion ignores this segment and tells them 'Go see Honda, Toyota, Nissan or Hyundai'.
.. It doesn't have Ford's best V6 engine. Why not? It should have had it from jump street.
.. It doesn't have Ford's best tranny yet.
.. Ford Corporate botched the first set of IIHS crash tests leaving the Fusion on the bottom of the pile.
.. Then on the 2nd set of IIHS tests the Fusion was the only newly designed vehicle to get overall mediocre results. ( all new vehicles get GOOD Frontal/Side; the Fusion gets second-rate scores Frontal/Side ). When a safety conscious shopper starts to do research it looks at this and says 'Whoa, first we cross off the Fusion'. That's wrong in what should be Ford's premiere vehicle.

Here's a counter example of what should have been done. In 2003 when the new Sienna came out it went through the IIHS crash tests and passed with 'best-ever' marks for Frontal/Side. But during the test it was noted that the gas tank could come lose and possibly rupture. Production was stopped. All Sienna's already on the road were notified of a Service Campaign to add a reinforcement to the tank. All new production added the reinforcement to the tank. Toyota provided two more vehicles with the reinforcement within 60 days for retesting, at their expense ( the IIHS buys the first vehicles ), and the new vehicles passed everthing with flying colors so that it became the first minivan with 'Double Top Scores'.

Why do the Toyota lovers refuse to accept that the Fusion could be more reliable than the Camry?

I have never said that the Fusion was not or could not be more reliable than the Camry. 5-10 years will tell the story. The Taurus is good and reliable - Ford Corporate just cut it's heart out. My feeling is that Ford Corporate intentionally didn't put it's best efforts into the Fusion. Time will tell if it ends up going the Taurus route or the Camry Accord route.

kdshapiro

"People extrapolate those choices and experiences to today"

Wrong - bro-in-law bought second Ford product in three years. Turned out to be a lemon and was recalled under the lemon law. To be a lemon law it has to meet certain criteria, all of which pose a major inconvenience to the owner. He said never again to Ford.

kdhspyder

Admit it, the sales keep going up because of image. I realize it's difficult to do that but I drive all cars when I shop and the two HOToys I drove each left me underimpressed. The salesmen (emphasis on the "sales") were talking a mile a minute. But reality is there failure problems that require recalls are showing more normal car build on their part.

The highlighted comment grossly underestimates the smarts of the American public and this is detroit's single worst characteristic. Have you/they not learned anything over the last 20 years. It's almost like the ghosts of the 50's/60's are being echo'd here. 'We'll give'm what we want to give'm because they don't know any better'.

Notice to ghosts: The American public has been voting with it's feet since the late 80's. It is not at all about image. It's about satisfaction and lack of inconvenience/unforeseen cost.

Small cars ==> midsized cars ==> minivans ==> small trucks ==> Titan/Tundra ( OK let's not go there, yet ). Do you really believe that this massive switch away from detroit is all about image?

Stop believing the ghosts!!

Regarding the '07 Camry:
You somehow missed the point that the vehicles involved are a very small part of the 400,000 delivered. If the activity on the 'Woes' forum and on TN are any indication then the problem is being solved. If it were endemic over all 400,000 there would be a massive hue and cry. It's no where near that serious. A small very vocal minority have very real problems that need to be fixed. A HUGE very quiet majority have little or no problems.

venus537

"Initial reliability in almost every new vehicles is very good, long term reliability is a different question."

Actually first year vehicles tend to be troublesome due to unforeseen gremlins. Though the Fusion is based upon an existing platform (Mazda6), its first year reliability is impressive.

The first year Camry on the other hand appears to have some bugs to work out. If I recall correctly, the previous generation Camry in its first year also had some issues. But to Toyota's credit they remedy the situation and I suspect the same to happen with the current model.

Toyota's problem on a whole appears to be that they're expanding faster than what their quality control can handle. There are worst problems for an automaker to have I suppose.

flash11

Let's do a best in this class Midsize (couldn't think of many). sportiest sedan catagory, no holds barred, all makes and models (North American, European, Asian-you see I did not specify Japanese) I am guessing in the $20K-$30K range sold in the US. It has to be a fully loaded make and model that gets close to the Audi A4's or BMW 328xi out there but gives the best bang for the buck (BBTB) if that is possible. From what I have read the Audi's and BMW's are extremely expensive to maintain, after 4 years people are dumping them for a newer car-this is a definate major fault for such an expensive class of car.

Format Year, Make, Model, price (MSRP)-you comments why
example-
1)2006 Buick Lacrosse CXT, $26K-absolutely loved this car,2.8L lots of power, leather, fully loaded, 5 year/100K bumper to bumper warantee (BTBW).

2)2006 Pontiac G6 GT coupe, $30K-love the retractible hard top (now you have a hard top, push a button, now you have a convertible-beautiful)-amazing power 2.8L with luxury-seats very comfortable, leather, salesman dying to bargain, 5 year/100K mile BTBW.

3)2007 Sebring Limited 3.5L, $29K,-leather fully loaded with every option imaginable, Chrysler is trying to compete, have not driven it yet since this model is not on the lots yet.

What are your top 5 sedans, BBTB, power with near luxury ?

plekto

Did I outlay more yes? But I'll get a corresponding amount back when I sell it--(and that was my point about value with these cars...I never understood that, somebody bragging about paying $5k less for a car...well, news flash, when you get rid of it, you also get $5k less for it).

****
Well, you need to look at the entire cost. There's higher insurance, registration, tax, and of course payments on the more expensive car. Ie - interest you pay someone unless you actually have $25K in hard cash lying around. Interest that's money wasted. Oh, and one more hidden cost - your credit rating. 5K more financed is a tiny but noticeable drag on your rating, as the more you have in relation to your earnings tied up if you don't own a home(many first time car buyers for instance), the worse it gets.

5K less plus 0% financing is a financial windfall that is worth more than the $5K less you end up selling it for. Part of this is because you don't pay interest. Every dime you pay goes into reducing the amount owned. And this, if you make the same payments as the more expensive car(say you have $400 a month to spend), will drop at least a year off the payments compared to the more expensive car with regular financing. It's possible with a modest downpayment to end up right-side-up on a loan of a GM or Ford or Jeep(all offereing 0% financing regularly) much quicker than on the imports. And as I touched on above, that's a faster rebound to your credit rating and mobility of your money(plus you can sell it for some cash if need be - you never know what the future holds, afterall)

P.S.
My top 5 cars in no order:
1:RX-8. I don't count the two-door+small half-door trick any different than a 4-door vehicle. Nice styling, but it's still a sedan, just like an extended cab truck is still a 4-5-passenger truck, full size doors in the rear or not. That said, it's a fantastic car. It's made to compete with and maul cars like the A4 and S40 - and it does so well that even when it's paired against a 350Z based solely on looks, it does 80% as well.

2:LaCrosse CXS. The 3.6VVT engine, paried with a nice level of features and a low price, plus 0% financing for 60 months, is a real finalist. Yes, the styling is odd, but that's fixed by getting it in black or a really dark color - it looks sharper and much more "meaty" - less bubbly.

3:Cadillac CTS. The 3.6VVT(same engine as above) version is about 30K for a 2006 model after rebates and such. IT's at the top-end of this price-range, but it offers RWD and an optional manual transmission. Outfitted this way, it's more car than most drivers ever need - seriously fast and loads of torque via a rally nice 6-speed gearbox.

4:Volvo S60. It's a bit pricey and at the top-end as well, but 2006 models have silly rebates on them. Under 30K is quite doable. The pros are that it's a very nice car inside, even with the basic trim - feels way above the others in trim levels, and refinement, and of course, it really drives like a C-class. Just loads more reliable and cheaper to fix.

http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60VOC171B0&restor- - e=false
Yikes. That's WAY under $30K - and on the T5 model. Plenty of room for options as well in that price.

5:Saab 9-5
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60SBC042B0&restor- - e=false
This is the sport model, and it squeeks under the line at $29,900(the price they lis includes delivery as well, so $720 less without) For the money, it's also hard to beat. Well built, good options, and with the manual transmission, a serious box of fun. The base model is only $1000 less and offers a lot less goodies.

imidazol97

>American public has been voting with it's feet since the late 80's. It is not at all about image. It's about satisfaction and lack of inconvenience/unforeseen cost.

And that's exactly the point. Perceptions are being based on the 80s. I thank you for saying it. Perceptions of Accord and Camry are being based on 90s experiences extrapolated forward.

No ghosts other than inability to accept the problems of 2003 Accord, e.g., and of sludging and of the current Camry model's transmissions as real problems. Check all the recalls for Toyota: was that list posted here or on another forum? I can't find it.

kdhspyder

Again you ignore that current buyers are not buying their first vehicle since 1989. Current Toyota, Honda, Nissan and now Hyundai buyers have been buying vehicles all through the period since the 80's, even through the sludge and tranny issues as you so often note, and they continue to buy the vehicles. I've had 7 Toyota's in this period. I'm not basing my experience on the first one. I'm basing my experience on all seven over 17 years. The 7 vehicle, in toto, have cost me $400 out of pocket in 'unexpected' expenses. Two have had recalls. But you know what? Both were taken care of during a normal oil change. I had no out of pocket expense and no inconvenience whatsoever. they are a non-issue.

This is the reality of most Honda/Toyota owners. It's a huge factor why within reason both companies have 'earned' a premium in the market. You can pooh pooh it but it's there in the monthly stats and in the annual results.

kdhspyder

Addressing three of your 'Scarlet Letter' issues. Just to put them in perspective ( I'll even throw in some more for your enjoyment )

'sludging' - this was a serious problem and handled poorly by Toyota whether it was their fault of not. But.. it only affected some of the V6's which in the 90's were a very small part of the overall sales. The reaction of most Toyota owners like me with 4c engines is 'what sludge problem? These 4c engines are perfect.'

Accord tranny's: ( anyone involved can add facts ) My impression though not involved was that Honda too had a serious problem but fixed it and gave those involved compensation for the inconvenience and extended warranties - and most importantly the customers were appreciative and stayed with Honda. It was handled well.

'07 Camry issues: the snap ring problem was very very minor and the ones involved were given compensation and treated very very well. Nearly all were impressed by how quickly Toyota jumped on it and how they were treated personally.
The hesitation issues seem to be going away as new software fixes are added to the various computers controlling the tranny's. Still to be determined.

Avalon hesitation issues: This too is dissolving as the new technology becomes more familiar to the owners.

Prius software issues: Hmmm trend here? Did I mention that there were at least 14 computers in most new vehicles. The issue was solved with a software fix last year and it's gone away. My 2005 is perfect.

Steering reinforcement recall on small cars: Fixed during a normal oil change.

Carpet defect safety recall on Highlanders: Carpet defect???? My wife is still laughing about that one. Fixed during a normal oil change.

Now what was it you were saying about 'inability to accept the problems'? Few if any of these problems have affected me or my family. Those that have affected our vehicles have been fixed immediately with no cost to me and no inconvenience....and over 17 years all that I'm out-of-pocket is $400.

In summary my perception is based on the late 80's, the entire 90's and all of this century thus far.

zzzoom6

kdshapiro writes, "What it says, Mazda overpriced the car."

maybe you're right. or maybe mazda overestimated the amount of people who really like to drive. whatever, these statements are 2 sides of the same coin. regardless, it does offer some great deals for people who value handling and performance. but don't confuse price with quality... the sonata and the mazda 6 are great examples of cars that sell for less despite being of better quality than many of their peers which sell for more.

kdshapiro continues, "The Mazda 6 is nowhere (IMO) as polished as an Accord. Pay less get less."

what do you mean by polished? seems that the accord is geared more toward comfort than the 6 which has been designed to have a lighter, more enjoyable character. so does that mean the accord has a little quieter ride, a nicer interior, and softer seats? well yes.

but does that also mean that the accord has much less control in turns? yes, and that's why the accord is a full five MPH slower in the slalom according to edmunds.

does this also mean that the accord takes comfort to be more important than safety? maybe this is why the accord stops 10 feet later than the mazda 6. don't want to spill your latte during an emergency stop after all now do you? now that would be uncomfortable :P and how is it that the accord doesn't offer stability control until you get their most expensive models? driving in the rain or snow becomes a much riskier proposition... very uncomfortable.

sometimes more is less, and less is more. and sometimes different is neither less or more, but just different.

clarkkent

OK, here is my first question! How come the cars today
are always done is bland colors?? ie: When you buy a ANY car today the interior (and most of the time) the exterior looks like seating for "The almost dead"?

I haven't seen a 2007 car that has a good looking color scheme yet. 98% of all new car interiors are egg shell, gray, black tan, etc. NO red, blue, yellow Green.

I used to drive Cadillac's back in the 70's and 80's. I could get any color of leather I wanted. They were very nice. Not just all Bland! If you had a yellow Cad. you could get yellow cloth or Leather interior! That goes for green, red, blue, brown, black white, aqua, etc.

I have not bought a new car in years and I'm not going to until I can get an interior that doens't scream (undertaker) evertime you get in!

What's the problem? The only cars with color in the interior are the ones with the camel interior.

No colors, no sale!

CK

kdhspyder

Productivity and keeping the costs down by larger purchses of one or two variables.

If you do want such variations then getting them aftermarket is a snap and dirt cheap. You can get leather to match the exterior color and it can even be two-toned or three-toned.

flash11

Thank-you plekto. With the exception of the Buick LaCrosse CXS, I never considered the list you gave. Very enlightening. And I will take them all for a test ride before buying one. For kicks I will try an Audi A4 3.0, Acura TL-S, and BMW 328xi or 330i and see what deals I could get if any, rate them then see how the list you mentioned compared, then make my final decision. We have lots of time, my wife and I are very excited.
Any one else care to add to the list ?

captain2

what many people don't know about the Aura - it is actually a thinly disguised Opel (right down to side mtd. indicator lights) - from Germany. Yep that same Opel that Buick imported in the 60s and 70s. Hope that it proves out well, seems to be blessed with a contemporary chassis and drivetrain, and a good pedigree.
Remember when Saturn was born? Supposedly high quality cars, known for customer service, no nonsense distribution, plastic body panels and safety. Very popular with the younger buyers, for awhile. It took GM all of about 3 or 4 years to screw that up!
IMO Hyundai and GM are closer to producing cars competitive to the Camcords/Altimas etc. than Ford and DC.

guest

"To you, obviously not. To Honda and Toyota owners, Yep. JUST BECAUSE WE DRIVE HONDAS AND TOYOTAS DOESN'T MEAN WE MADE A WRONG DECISION, SCAPE! Quit implying it! "

The same could be said for Honda/Toyota owners.. Just because those of us choose not to spend the extra $$ we are not wrong for driving something other than an Accord/Camry. We chose to drove Fusions/Milans/Sonatas/Altimas/G6's/Impala's whichever! :shades:

backy

Yep that same Opel that Buick imported in the 60s and 70s.

The same brand name, yes; but not the same cars in the slightest.

guest

I don't think people are trying to convince anyone that noone is buying the Camry. The fact is people are choosing other vehicles other than the Camry/Accord. By the way, explain to me then what I am seeing on my way to work.. A Hertz lot packed with Camry's.. Are they all fake? made of cardboard? :confuse:

venus537

Don't think much of your first three choices. Among the domestics the Fusion and Aura would be much preferred over those three. I would say the Jetta 2.0t or Passat would be the closest to the driving feel of the two cars you bench marked. Among the Japanese the Altima V6, Mazdaspeed 6 and Accord V6 are also good choices.

plekto

Well, you said midsize sedan, so I'll add in a coupe of others that aren't but should get at least a look-over.

"Other category"

Wrangler Unlimited. Now, this might get a "wha?" from you, but it's a *4-door* Wrangler. Longer wheelbase and quite driveable on-road as well as off. The kicker is 0% financing and very high resale value, esepcially if you have the hard-top model.

Smaller cars:

I'd have recommended the Volvo S40 and the Saab 9-3, but the bigger models are within a thousand or two in price after rebates, and quite honestly, are better cars. In the small category, I recommend a bare-bones Mercedes C class - the one with the 4 cylinder engine. Why bare bones? Because stripped of the navigation and electronics, plus a manual transmission, it's a great car for just over $28K. Just get the side airbags and the folding rear seats. Leather(MB Tex is virtually identical to leather but wears much better - for free), navi, cd changer... pass on it all.

OTOH - I still think the Volvo S60 is a better car by far. Larger and drives very much the same. Btw, best audio system ever reviewed in a car was in a S60. Actual Dolby certified sound system.

BIG CARS:
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60VOC111A0&restor- - - e=false
Wha? Yep - a base S80. $30K. Add nothing but stability control to get $30,257.

Mercury Grand Marquis
It's big. But with $6-8K in rebates, it's also under 30K for a fully-loaded top-end ultimate edition model. Literally stuff every option you can other than sunroof on it and then smile as it's under 25K. Yes, it's big, but it's a lot of car for the money.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60MEC021D0&restor- - - e=false
Now, put your eyes back in your head

http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60MEC021A0&restor- - - e=false
Blows my mind. This is optioned out as well as the mid-range Crown Vic. $17,044 out the door.

The base Crown Vic has no such incentives and is $21,500 or so. The Grand Marquis has nicer chrome and slightly better resale value, as it's almost never used for police or taxi use(or rental fleets either).

SUVs
There's only one I recommend based upon price and features, and that's the new RAV-4(what??? he recommended a Toyota???) Yep - it's a great vehicle for the price. It has literally every off-road feature and capability of the 4-Runner in a 3/4 sized and more maneageable package.

http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB70TOS112F0&restor- - - e=false
This is the 4*4 Limited V6 - the top-end model. It's incredible off-road and yet it's very civilized inside. It drives almost like a crossover, yet, as you can see, there's plenty of room for options at this price. Also, note the 3rd row seat option.(!) Very cool little SUV with loads of features.

venus537

"The fact is people are choosing other vehicles other than the Camry/Accord."

I didn't know that. Thanks for the revelation.

imidazol97

If my 6 passenger Buick were totalled tomorrow, I'd be hard-pressed about what to buy to replace it right now. I'd definitely look at renting a Sonata or Azera for a long test drive. And I'd test drive other cars mentioned here, notably the Fusion or 500.

thegraduate

Problem is, I've heard the statement that implies everyone who bought a Honda or Toyota could get something just as good or better for a lot less, and that we all overpaid. What you don't understand (or at least dont reflect in your posts) is that the Ford doesn't meet EVERYONE'S standards like it meets yours, so we must look elsewhere for complete satisfaction. You are obviously completely satisfied with a less expensive vehicle, and that's great; money in your pocket. I just wasn't willing to do what I felt was "settling" on a cheaper feeling interior and an engine that wasn't as sweet. You didn't "Settle", but I would've been. That doesn't make me wrong. Saying things like "Is a Honda or Toyota worth the extra $2,000? Nope" is awfully short-sighted and narrow minded for someone who prides themselves on thinking outside the box and buying a lesser-purchased nameplate.

Give us a little credit, and quit implying we are wrong, snooty, or God-forbid, BRAINWASHED into buying our cars because of something a media article said.

tlong

I was on a business trip last week and had a 2005 Sonata as a rental. To put my own cars in perspective, I've owned an A4, a 1992 Honda Accord, and currently own an Acura TL.

The Sonata was a 4cyl and was pretty impressive. Interior was cloth and I don't think it was an upscale version. Plastics were mostly soft-touch. Interior looked pretty nice. Seats were quite comfortable, controls were well laid out and had a good feel.

Engine was reasonably powerful, pretty quiet. It wasn't quite at the level of the best 4's I've driven but it was pretty close. It had MUCH less NVH than, for example, the last Jeep Grand Cherokee I rented (new model) that had a 6 cylinder. I thought the engine was very impressive.

Handling was among the best for a car in this class. Steering was tight and responsive. Ride was firm and yet pretty compliant. I was impressed and felt that the handling of the car was very good for a family sedan. I dare say that it rivaled my 2005 Acura TL, as I think my Acura is too floaty and not as good a handler as many people indicate.

In summary I was impressed with how far Hyundai has come. If I were looking for a car in this class I'd put the Hyundai high on the list.

kdhspyder

The retail vs fleet figures are easy tofind out. They are published every month by some source which I don't remember and often reported here.

It's 8-10% if I'm not mistaken.

imidazol97

Found one of references to Toyota's recall problems.
toyota recalls

kdhspyder

Well as this poster correctly noted..something is amiss which detroit cannot for it's life figure out. Maybe as I noted above all these problems are being handled correctly and no one is deserting..in fact new customers are being added.

Same thread, farther down.. this about says it all.

#159 of 169 Re: Why all the Toyota recalls? [62vetteefp] by midwesttrader Nov 17, 2006 (8:40 am)
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Replying to: 62vetteefp (Nov 17, 2006 4:04 am)

Recalls, sales satisfaction surveys, none it seems to matter much. Over the last 10 years, Toyota and Hondas market shares continues to climb and GM's continues to drop.

The GM chest-thumpers need to chew on these YTD sales numbers by division:
GMC -17.4%
Buick -15.4%
Chevy -9.8%
Saab -9.5%
Caddy -5.4%
Pontiac -5.0%

The only bright spot is Hummer +37.8%. Their bread and butter divisions just don't seem to be getting it done.

meateater

I don't think you know how to drive a TL in a way to appresiate it's capabilities. The rags know how to, and they all agree the car can hang. When I drive my wife's I can throw it into a turn that I'd have to brake for in my car, but in her TL I can hit it at 35-40mph without hitting the brakes, the tires don't even squeal, and I'm thru it so fast that the car is ready to stomp on to the next challenge before I'm even ready.

I guess the next time I rent a 4cyl Hyundai I'll try this.

kdshapiro

"but does that also mean that the accord has much less control in turns? yes, and that's why the accord is a full five MPH slower in the slalom according to edmunds"

This means what? Slalom has little to do with emergency maneuvers. CRs emergency testing does not rely on slalom. Does that make it less safe because it has a slower slalom speed? IMO no. To your way of thinking a car like the Miata must be the safest because of its' size and the fact it can be thrown around with impunity. Yet, I would hate to get into any accident with that car. That doesn't mean the Accord can't handle emergency maneuvers. It just means it has a different ride characteristics than the Mazda.

Also compare Mazda6 crash results with Accord results. If you count up the stars, you will also notice the Accord (to use one example) has more stars than the Mazda6 making it slight safer. So you balance out one type of safety with another.

And the Accord has a much more refined interior. You may not care, some people do.