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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think most people choose the 4cyl because of the purchase price difference, more than fuel economy difference.

    I'd say that is a fair assessment to make. People are more concerned with the extra $2,000 a V6 will cost up front than the extra $5 of gas they will use every week.
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I want to feel like I'm not gonna regret my decision for the next 5 years.

    Which is exactly the reason I went with the EX V6 instead of the I4. I didn't want to regret not going for the "top of the line" model later. I'm sure the EX I4 would have been ok, but I just love the V6's power. It's much more than just ok.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ...restated, if Hyundai cost the same as a CamCord, why would someone pick Hyundai over those two?

    I thought that was exactly the point of my post. :confuse:
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yes in both cases - both the computers and the odos/speedo have been checked for accuracy. 34 mpg can be done on the Avalon, 60-65 mph, but where I live you are doing 75 or so, or you get run over. A steady 75-80 corresponds to about 29 mpg, AC on - throw in some occasional big city gridlock and overall I've been real solid at 27+ for 40k miles. Checking the mpg the old fashioned way as one poster suggests is tricky only because it is difficult to get a consistent fillup with these high speed, vapor recovery pumps. It can shutoff off 2 gallons short of full. Additionally down here we are mandated for 10% ethanol which also hurts mileage slightly. The Altima, which drives quite a bit differently, has the older 4 speed, and is a good 3-4 mpg short of the bigger Avalon on the highway, but is much closer in terms of spunk and FE around town. The new CVT apparently does better on a gallon.
    IMPO, the Toyota 2GR and Nissan VQ are the best V6s currently available - the 2GR easily the most technologically advanced but still only 2 years old, the VQ probably the best in history in terms of performance and durability.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I guess I'm lucky. I moved up from a 130 hp Accord LX , which is adequate on a good day, lethargic with two passengers, SLOW with 4(which I still drive over 1,000 miles a month) to my 166 hp 06 Accord EX. Making that change, my 166 hp seems like a rocket in comparison. Only when I drive my friend's Acura CL (3.2L V6) and get back in my Accord I-4 does it feel only "adequate."

    Most of the time, it is quite simply faster than I need, and as fast as I want.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The "Sonata" that is priced about the same as the Accord EX V6 is called the Azera. Did you drive that one before buying the Accord?
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sorry... let me try again

    If the Limited V6 Sonata carried the same pricetag as an EX V6 Accord or an SE-V6 Camry, would the Sonata get many buyers?

    I think we have two different ideas.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Azera is a larger car with a much larger engine, and accordingly, has worse fuel economy. The Azera is designed to compete against cars like Passat and Avalon, isn't it?
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    jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    The "Sonata" that is priced about the same as the Accord EX V6 is called the Azera. Did you drive that one before buying the Accord?

    Actually - yes - I did. Test drove it too. The one I looked at had cloth interior, no sunroof...cost more than the Accord also. Didn't think it was that special.

    I'm not quite ready for a Hyundai in the garage (altho the new Santa Fe is a looker). Maybe one day. The Accord was an easy pick.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I didn't get it backwards (maybe I was not very clear) , 70% fours but I'm thinking that is typical only for the major sellers, Camcords/Altimas because 1) they have better 4 cyl. engines and 2) even with the 4 cylinder engines they can cost as much (or more) as those 'excuses' for V6s they put in most of the 'competition'. And yep, as much as I prefer a good V6, I still would rather have a 4 cyl. Accord, for example, than any 'domestic' V6. In my mind - Fusions, 6s, pre 2006 Sonatas, Malibus, G6s, Sebrings etc. all have problems under the hoods, 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder - and it has a whole lot more to do with the way the engine sounds and feels, the 'grin factor' - than it does with any perceived reliability or even HP/FE issues.
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    thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Ok, I read ya loud and clear now.

    It's late, and I have class in the A.M.

    Over and out.

    thegrad
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    elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    both the computers and the odos/speedo have been checked for accuracy.

    I would like to know how they are checked for accuracy. The only way I can be positive, is with a dipstick. To me, that is as accurate as you can get without completely draining the entire fuel system, filling it with a predetermined amount of fuel, then running it until it dies. I doubt if anyone does that.
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    batistabatista Member Posts: 159
    You have a point about the Malibu and G6 V6 being inadequate in that they both have 12 Valve Pushrod V6's.
    GM is too cheap to switch over to OHC. OHV is alright in V8 format but an underperformer in V6's.
    Not so much with the Fusion and Sebring--24 Valve DOHC and 24 Valve SOHC engines in those two.
    I drive a DC 3.5L 250 HP SOHC car and it sounds refined even at 5000rpm.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Not one American car on the list. The Subaru Legacy in this segment, made the list. Hop over to IIHS.ORG for more info.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    huh? They are called mileage markers - and in terms of gas it has to do with really filling up - up the filler neck. Now if you really want accuracy to within a few hundreths of a mpg, I guess you might be right but my computer only show tenths.
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    jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Only the Legacy with optional stability control makes that list. ESC is available only on the sporty or pricier models, according to IIHS.
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,154
    The method of filling the tank to a 'certain' levela nd then driving and then refilling to the same 'certain' level followed by dividing the miles driven by the number of gallons used is the method used for years. But with the advent of air bubbles designed into the tank for pollution control, filling the tank to a 'certain' level becomes unertain.

    The position of the car compared to horizontal affects the air bubble and how the tank fills. The only way I've felt real accurate doing this is to average over multiple fills and the only real way to believe the total gas in the tank is the same is to pull up to the same pump at the same station for the final refill. This spreads the error in refilling over more gallons reducing the percentage error in the calculation. I.e, fill before leaving for a trip of 1000 miles round trip; refill at same pump on return home.

    I've found my digital gauge is closer than the accuracy of the single refill method on my particular car. I beleve it's within 5%. The real use of the digital gauge is to compare fuel economy at different speeds and with different wind factors while driving.

    Using the single fill calculation is not accurate enough to say other methods (digital) are wrong.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    jimmy81 wrote: "I'm not quite ready for a Hyundai in the garage (altho the new Santa Fe is a looker). Maybe one day. The Accord was an easy pick."

    I remember that's what my next door neighbor said to me when I drove into my driveway with my brand spanking new Toyota Corona in September 1968. "A Toyota in your garage, you must be joking!" This also happened with another neighbor when I brought home my new 1978 Accord from the dealer. The feelings and perceptions were exactly the same about Honda and Toyota during that time. Thankfully, times change, as it has with Hyundai as well. It's all about image and perception, and sometimes neither match reality.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    no. of valves or camshafts locations is not necessarily all that makes a good (and refined) engine. GM does have the 3.6 that has been in the CTS and is now in the Aura which has been getting some good reviews, the Ford DT is a 14 year old design that is pushed at anything over 4000 rpm and sounds/feels like it - a comparative meat grinder. Motor Trend in the 12-06 Truck of the year issue - still notes the new 3.5 (in the Edge) as 'coarse and thrashy' despite a much more contemporary design. The Honda V6 is an older sohc design, that rivals even the Toyota engine for smoothness and FE. The 3.5 Chrysler is actually pretty good (especially when compared to most of GM/Fords offerings) and certainly the engine of choice in things like 300s/Chargers. I expect that Chrysler will inherit some of that German know how from the MB 3.5 liter and be able to go that step or two further.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You are exactly right...Maybe 10 years from now I'll feel good to have a Hyundai in my garage but NOT NOW.
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    meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    It's all about image and perception, and sometimes neither match reality.

    Not its not.

    Sounds like jimmy81 wanted the car he felt better buying/owning - the Accord, and not what he thought the neighbors thought. I too agree the Accord is the better car.
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    lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I remember that's what my next door neighbor said to me when I drove into my driveway with my brand spanking new Toyota Corona in September 1968. "A Toyota in your garage, you must be joking!" This also happened with another neighbor when I brought home my new 1978 Accord from the dealer.

    Given the experiences friends, neighbors and family members had with the early 70s Corona and the late 70s Accord, I would say not being an early adopter might not be such a bad idea. Of course this was confirmed by a girlfriend's experiences with a Hyundai Excel and Scoupe.
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I do not at all agree with the new scoring system. I thought the 'Gold' and 'Silver' awards were well done, and I'm sorry, as I don't really take issue with a vehicle that achieves an 'Acceptable' in Head Restraint rating, as Rear crashes are RARELY as severely debilitating or fatal as Frontal/Offset or Side impacts.

    Typically, I'm a fan of the IIHS and its testing. However, this list is WAY TOO restrictive. In my book, if you score GOOD for FRONTAL, GOOD for SIDE, and either ACCEPTABLE OR GOOD FOR REAR, thats should do it.

    I'll copy the list as presented in the PR, for easy reference:

    WINNERS

    Large car
    Audi A6 manufactured in Dec. 2006 and later

    Midsize cars
    Audi A4
    Saab 9-3
    Subaru Legacy equipped with optional electronic stability control

    Minivans
    Hyundai Entourage
    Kia Sedona

    Luxury SUVs
    Mercedes M class
    Volvo XC90

    Midsize SUVs
    Acura RDX
    Honda Pilot
    Subaru B9 Tribeca

    Small SUVs
    Honda CR-V
    Subaru Forester equipped with optional electronic stability control


    ALSO-RANS
    Rear protection isn't GOOD     (GOOD for FRONTAL and SIDE, ESC available/standard)

    These vehicles earned good ratings in front and side crash tests. They have electronic stability control, standard or optional. They would have won 2007 TOP SAFETY PICK awards if their seat/head restraints also had earned good ratings. Instead rear crash protection is rated acceptable, marginal, or poor (Honda reports that the seat/head restraints in the only Civic model with electronic stability control wouldn’t be rated good).

    Acceptable rear protection
    Audi A3
    BMW 3-series 4dr
    Lexus IS 250/350

    Marginal rear protection
    Acura TL
    Honda Odyssey
    Lexus ES 350
    Lexus GS 350
    Toyota Camry
    Toyota FJ Cruiser
    Toyota Prius
    Toyota RAV4

    Poor rear protection
    Honda Accord 4dr
    Infiniti M35
    Nissan Quest
    Toyota Avalon
    Toyota Sienna

    ~alpha
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If the Limited V6 Sonata carried the same pricetag as an EX V6 Accord or an SE-V6 Camry, would the Sonata get many buyers?

    No, because Honda and Toyota have years of Brand Equity built up which allows them to charge more for their cars than other automakers.

    And the Sonata Limited doesn't cost the same as an Accord EX V6 or Camry XLE V6 (not really comparable to the SE V6, IMO). It costs the same in real-world prices as an Accord or Camry I4.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Azera SE is about $21k in real-world pricing in my town; the Limited under $24k. I seriously doubt I could get an Accord EX V6 for anywhere near $21k--maybe near $24k if all the planets are lined up.
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    chrisfordchrisford Member Posts: 55
    In my mind - Fusions, 6s, pre 2006 Sonatas, Malibus, G6s, Sebrings etc. all have problems under the hoods, 4 cylinder or 6 cylinder

    What problem under the hood if i may ask kind sir does the Fusion 4 and V6 have? It's easy to make such a general statement without regards for truth. The Duratecs are very reliable engines and lots of folks on this forum can attest to that. Why do you ToyHon zealots insist on spreading false information to validate your purchase decision. So you got an overpriced, reliable but boring family car, great! But don't insult the intelligence of people like myself and others by make such a subjective comment disguised as facts.

    I think the ToyHon zealots will not buy any other mid-size brand even if came with everything they wanted and more. So get over it and stop trying to justify your inability see anything beyond you nose.

    I was all set on Sonata or Fusion but now that the Aura is here I may have to rethink my decision. And, if tomorrow something else shows up on the horizon that spikes my interest then I may also take that into consideration.

    The point I am making is you don't have to follow zealots blindly base on past and outdated information or mis-information.
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    w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    meateater wrote: "Sounds like jimmy81 wanted the car he felt better buying/owning - the Accord, and not what he thought the neighbors thought. I too agree the Accord is the better car."

    I think you missed my point. I didn't care what my neighbors thought, and still don't. I don't buy anything for my neighbors' gratification or satisfaction - only my own.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think the ToyHon zealots will not buy any other mid-size brand even if came with everything they wanted and more.

    Why would I not buy a car that has:

    - The interior quality on par or better than the Honda Accord
    - The reliability that rivals the Toyota Camry
    - A 4 cylinder engine that outperform the Accord 4c or
    - A 6 cylinder engine that outperform Toyota's 2GR-FE
    - The exterior that matches my personal preference

    and all that with a sticker comes about two to three grand lower than the Camcord's?

    Can you point me to such a car currently on the market? I don't think so. By the way, I don't think the Fusion or Sonata fits all the 5 criteria I listed above.
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    cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    the Toyota 2GR and Nissan VQ are the best V6s currently available - the 2GR easily the most technologically advanced

    Unfortunately, the truth is that Toyota 2GR is two generations behind BMW V6.

    BMW V6 has CVVT (continuously variable timing on both intake and exhaust camshafts along with continuously variable intake valve lift) while Toyota 2GR is VVT (both intake and exhaust).

    BMW V6 has VANOS (Variable Nockenwellen Steuerung) that further enhances both power and efficiency across the engine speed range while Toyota 2GR does not.

    The end result is that BMW 3L v6 achieves its max torque 220 ft-lbs @ only 2750 rpm while Toyota 2GR’s max torque 248 ft-lbs @ 4700 rpm. The turbo charged BMW 3L v6 achieves its max torque 300 ft-lbs @ 1400 rpm. Do you feel how much more twist force BMW V6 generates without screaming?

    Hyundai 3.3L V6 engine has CVVT, which achieves its max torque 226 ft-lbs @ 3500 rpm. This engine is probably one generation behind BMW V6. Hyundai learnt a lot from MB by giving MB 10% of Hyundai.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Unfortunately, the truth is that Toyota 2GR is two generations behind BMW V6.

    Unfortunately your whole post is just a load of bogus because BMW does NOT have and NEVER has a V6 engine.

    This just shows that googling without basic knowledge is very very dangerous.
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    imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,154
    >Why would I not buy a car that has:

    To show you have herd mentality and let others pick your choices for you????? :confuse:

    To show you don't understand financial responsibility???? :confuse:

    To show you aren't gullible to the advertising image put out by certain companies???? :confuse:

    To show you'll buy something that doesn't look as good just because???? :confuse:

    :confuse: :confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
    ;););););)

    Good post.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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    meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    I think the Hyundai give-away pricing spooks people.
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    alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I could have sworn the 2GR Toyota engine has continuously variable valve timing - on both cams as noted.

    And louiswei - exactly which cars are you talking about

    "- A 4 cylinder engine that outperform the Accord 4c or
    - A 6 cylinder engine that outperform Toyota's 2GR-FE"

    I can't think of any in this class.

    ~alpha
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    To show you have herd mentality and let others pick your choices for you?????

    I come here to seek advise and sometimes give some. The reason I asked for such a car is because I myself couldn't find one out there on the market.

    To show you don't understand financial responsibility????

    Too bad for you that I am willing to spend extra 2 to 3 grand on a mid-size sedan so I would feel good and not second guessing my decision couple years down the road.

    To show you aren't gullible to the advertising image put out by certain companies????

    Not advertising media but from personal experience.

    I personally have owned or own:
    90' Acura Legend
    97' Honda Accord LX
    06' Lexus IS350

    Dad has owned or own:
    92' Honda Accord LX
    99' Toyota Camry LE
    05' Toyota 4runner Limited V6

    Neither one of the above cars has dissapointed us. I think our family experience speaks for itself.

    To show you'll buy something that doesn't look as good just because

    Maybe the exterior look is not on top or your priority list but I'd rather to see myself in a good looking car.
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    cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    BMW does NOT have and NEVER has a V6 engine.

    Is this message from Mars?
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Is this message from Mars?

    No, the BMW on planet EARTH never has and does NOT have a V6 engine in their inventory.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think the Hyundai give-away pricing spooks people.

    Well, I always liked Halloween. :) As long as Hyundai offers those great prices (and note that they are moving up in the last year or so) and the great warranty, I will be happy to take advantage of them. I don't expect either of those to last forever.
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    tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    I don't expect either of those to last forever.

    Probably not, but at least the warranty offer has been extended through 2010.

    Hyundai Warranty extended
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    It was a typo. Many times I accidentally typed V6 instead of I6.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    That much typo in one post? I don't think so. Also, after I pointed out the "typo" he replied thinking that the message was from Mars.

    V6 is NOT I6!!!

    It's not fair to compare V6 and I6 straight up. Correct me if I am wrong but generally speaking the inline-6 has more low-end torque than the V6 but its maxima HP output cannot rival the V6's. Why do you think BMW went to all the trouble to put a twin turbo in its I6? Because with the natural aspirated intake that engine has pretty much reached its maxima performance limit, the only way to squeeze more out of it is to either turbo-charge or super-charge it.

    We are way out of topic here but I just want to make a point that V6 != I6.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good! Last I heard HMA was thinking of pulling it after 2008. That will take me through my next two new car purchases (if I go with Hyundai, no certainty there). After that, the kids are gone so... hello 3 Series! :)
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and yes I talking about V6s, and yes the Bimmer straight 6s are a holy grail for engineering prowess.
    And you better check -
    http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/powertrain/engine/index.html
    the 2GR is also CVVTI on both sides, and likewise in the FSE variant equipped with that direct injection you point to. Torque is at a higher number but also relatively flat as are most engines with this kind of technology - and the 2GR is equal or better than the BMWs in specific output and FE - not to mention the fact that you don't have to spend nearly as much to get one!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    CHILL!
    what does this say - IN MY MIND, blankety blank have problems under the hoods. Does that sound like a beginning of a statement of fact or possibly an opinion????
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    jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    You're right - the V6er is wrong. Was a silly post anyway. I think everybody knew that and ignored it. 'Cept you. ;)
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    jimmy81jimmy81 Member Posts: 170
    Wow! A 3 series? From a Hyundai clubber? How do you justify THAT price difference? Lotta extra jack there.
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    kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    This is not sold in the US, is it? If it isn't it doesn't really matter what the specs are, cause until it gets over here you never know how things are gonna change.
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    zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    the new ford 3.5 liter v6 is also being used in the mazda cx-9 which was recently reviewed by motor trend. they said "It's also not a CX-7 in that normally aspirated (adios, rubberbandy turbo lag), its all-new 3.5-liter quad-valve V-6 producing 263 horsepower and 249 pound-feet of immediate torque running on regular unleaded--an important issue these days. This is the emergency-rescue V-6 that Ford's 500 and Freestyle have been grimly waiting for, and it's a sweet mill with creamy torque in just about any direction the tach points. The 3.5 is a well-mannered match for the Aisin six-speed tranny's near-imperceptible shifts and the optional AWD system's undetectable power routing."

    not a bad review on their new engine. as far as the DT 3.0 being like a "meat grinder" above 4k, you couldn't be more wrong. sounds like a nice growl in my 6. maybe in other engines with the exhaust tuned differenty it is less satisfying, but in the 6 it sounds great. not as good as a civic SI above 6k, but more of a lower toned rumble that's much easier to live with day in day out. of course most of my driving is below 4k, so I don't get to hear this sweet sound too much, but I always smile when I get to stretch my car's legs out!
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    What does a 5-6 year old 3 Series cost?

    Anyway, if I want to buy a new 3 Series when my kids have flown the coop and I don't have their high school tuition bills to pay (and other costs), what's it to you?
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    cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    Sorry for the typo. Here is the revision. Six cylinder engine has been configured as 0-degree (I6), somewhere between 0 and 180 degrees (V6, normally 60 degree), or flat (180 degree, Porsche six cylinder).

    the Toyota 2GR and Nissan VQ are the best V6s currently available - the 2GR easily the most technologically advanced

    Unfortunately, the truth is that Toyota 2GR is two generations behind BMW I6.

    BMW I6 has CVVT (continuously variable timing on both intake and exhaust camshafts along with continuously variable intake valve lift) while Toyota 2GR is VVT (both intake and exhaust).

    BMW I6 has VANOS (Variable Nockenwellen Steuerung) that further enhances both power and efficiency across the engine speed range while Toyota 2GR does not.

    The end result is that BMW 3L I6 achieves its max torque 220 ft-lbs @ only 2750 rpm while Toyota 2GR’s max torque 248 ft-lbs @ 4700 rpm. The turbo charged BMW 3L v6 achieves its max torque 300 ft-lbs @ 1400 rpm. Do you feel how much more twist force BMW I6 generates without screaming?

    Hyundai 3.3L V6 engine has CVVT, which achieves its max torque 226 ft-lbs @ 3500 rpm. This engine is probably one generation behind BMW I6. Hyundai learnt a lot from MB by giving MB 10% of Hyundai.
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    louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What? Both the 2GR-FE and 2GR-FSE are sold in the US.

    Cars equipped with 2GR-FE:
    Camry
    Avalon
    RAV4(?)
    ES350
    RX350(?)

    Cars equipped with 2GR-FSE:
    IS350
    GS350

    Feel free to add to the list if I missed any.
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