Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

tlong

Wow. Calculated it down to the penny.
Would you have been disappointed if it cost you 8 cents more?

Wow. That's highly valuable. Sorry to be harsh, is that the best comment you can make?

Back to the topic. Even my 2005 Acura TL has done 33mpg at a steady 70mph. I filled up, immediately got on the interstate, set the cruise control, and drove a hundred miles. Got off, and filled up. This is a V6. Hondas get pretty amazing mileage for the power of the engines.

ew3074

Oh...! I thought the dual VVTI V6 has pretty decent mileage/gallon based on EPA. What is the real mpg actually?

plekto

One thing - and this will become evident when they change the EPA tests to reflect reality in a few years - is that the EPA tests are done at a "city" speed of 25mph (average) and a "highway" speed of 45mph (average).

This leads to almost useless data. Highway is higher in real life but city ratings are lower. Sometimes drastically. What the manufacturers have done is to put super-tall gearing and tuned the engines for top-end power in order to get those silly highway ratings. But you lose all of your city perfromance and efficiency while doing it.

Why? Because it's only human nature to pound on the gas harder in city traffic to compensate for the tall gearing. If you drive in the city like it has an egg on the pedal and never let it get above 1600-1800rpm, you'll get 30mpg city. But you'll also be a menace to the other drivers as you take 30+ seconds to get to 45mph.

Case in point - my mother's 2000 LeSabre. It consistently gets about 30mpg highway but gets *16* city. 24 in mixed driving is about the average. Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, and the rest are about the same(V6 engines). It's pretty consistent across all of them - 3.5-3.8L V6 engines turning at about the same rpms after gearing is factored in - with roughly the same compression ratios...

When the new tests come out, expect to see all vehicles suffer huge city MPG losses.

***
As for the person looking and not finding anything, Me, I'd love to own a S60 with the wood trim, leather, sunroof, and all the goodies. It definately feels as nice as the E-class inside and with a manual transmission, qualifies as "sporty" as well(at least it does considering its size).

Getting one for under 30K - It's an incredible deal.

akirby

The new tests are here:
http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420f06009.htm

And they'll be in use next year with the 2008 models. Not clear if the 2008 Escape due in January 2007 will get the new tests or if it will wait for the normal fall model year cycle.

Highlights:
City now has 4 cycles averaged together including some with A/C and an acceleration up to 70 mph.
Highway now includes an acceleration up to 80 mph and a longer cycle.

kdshapiro

"As for the person looking and not finding anything, Me, I'd love to own a S60 with the wood trim, leather, sunroof, and all the goodies. It definately feels as nice as the E-class inside and with a manual transmission, qualifies as "sporty" as well(at least it does considering its size)."

Wasn't that person talking about 2007 models? Of course, if you go used or last years models, you can always expect to pay less. I mean I can get a few year old used M3 for a decent price also. One of the more awesome cars out there.

I would wait for the new Accord, myself. Should be able to get a killer deal on a 2007 Accord.

kdshapiro

Most cars already suffer big time in the city. My 330i went from 20 at the low end to 34 at the high-end. Not bad for a sporty car.

thegraduate

Well, I just wrote the mileage on the receipt, so i had the numbers in front of me.

alpha01

The nickname is spelled Alpha and has nothing to do with Alfa Romeos, or I would have spelled it 'Alfa01'.

If you want something more exclusive than the makes you list, consider the Legacy GT, for example, which will be very reliable, fast, safest in measures of crash testing, and offers tremendous handling, as well as a very stylish interior that offers top notch fit and finish? (In addition to AWD, which only the Fords offer otherwise). Give it a test drive.

And yes, I've had many MANY rental Sonatas, Fusions, Milans, Camrys, etc... and to me, park the Fusion and Milan next to each other, and they are undoubtedly stablemates in appearance. In the interior, styling is also very similar - same diminutive gauges, center stack, the differences are in detail ONLY.

~alpha

goodegg

Even my 2005 Acura TL has done 33mpg at a steady 70mph

I get that same hwy mileage and I'm steady at 80mph (I'd actually be a nuisance at 70mph in and around metro Atlanta) with occasional visits to 95-100 to pass (quick burst passes instead of a more gradual pass - what can I say? The car has the power to do it easily).

Around town mpg is 21. The sticker on the car said 20/30.
Pretty darn close to actual. Amazing mpgs vs. HP.

jaxs1

People love to try to justify their speeding by saying everyone else is doing it, so the need to so they can keep up with the flow.
Then you have to do 95-100 MPH so you can quickly get past those "only" going 80.
Tell it to the the patrolman.

Is the speed limit even 70 in metro Atlanta much less 80? Isn't there a bit much traffic in metro Atlanta to be doing those kinds of speeds?
If many drivers going over way the speed limit, then you can just stay out of the left lane and let them pass.

elroy5

In my area (on the Interstate hwy) if you stay in the right lane, you can never maintain a constant speed because there are cars doing 60mph when the limit is 70mph. So driving in the left lane going 80-85mph I don't have to speed up, then slow down all the time. There are plenty of cars who are doing 90mph or more so you have blockers running interference for the troopers. Haven't gotten a ticket in at least 3 years now.

scape2

" the differences are in detail ONLY."

I agree, they are "stablemates" but they don't look anything alike. Park one side by side and there is a definite difference. Interior is more than just center stack. seats, some extra nickle touches too.. take a closer look at the interior..

scape2

I am now AVERAGING 26.2MPG in my V6 Fusion..

Ever wonder why when people talk about Honda/Toyota products its golden and believed without a doubt.. when its GM/Ford it just cannot be true..

akirby

Take 100 people at random and show them the Fusion and Milan and 99 will say they're different vehicles.

jacknzone

City 24 mpg 2.4 litre motor not great take off speed from the lights but very good to drive.
Had 93 Camry , 21 mpg 3 litre and it was fast of the make but you knew you were driving a large front wheel drive car . The Sonata has a better feel with it.

goodegg

Not sure where you're from, but in metro Atlanta MOST people are going WAY over the speed limits. So you go with the flow. In EVERY lane, not just the left. I can't change that.

All the interstates that surround Atlanta are race tracks too. Shoot - even the police are haulin [non-permissible content removed]. Sport bikes going 100+ in downtown Atlanta.

Metro DC not a whole lot different. MiamiDade and Broward/Palm Beach is too.

There are no patrolmen to tell it to bro...they don't seem to care. You must not live in a big, booming metro area.

jaxs1

So you are saying there is no traffic around Atlanta and everyone is zooming around at 90+ mph and motorcycles go 100 miles an hour through downtown?
Wow. Atlanta must have very short commute times with all those empty, free-flowing freeways around downtown. Must be nice.
Yeah, right.

elroy5

Where I live, on I10 and I55 there are long stretches with nothing but pine trees, and a rest stop here and there. People go 90mph and above in these areas. They do slow down to 75-80mph through New Orleans, mostly because the road is so bad there. I55 is mostly straight, flat and smooth, and they all haul but. I4 engines just don't cut it (for me) in this environment.

kdhspyder

I gotta call BS on this.

Sorry while I admit I haven't been to all these cities in 5-10 yrs I used to go to Chi-town 40 times a year, Atl 20-30 times a year, DC, Balt, Boston 40+ times a year, No one does 100 mph in these Metro areas.

OK on the Freeways with no traffic, or very little, 75-85 is certainly common but the biggest complaint in every single one of them is most of the time the speed is < 15 mph or at a standstill.

ilijabmw

in terms of history, aren't japanese cars suppose to have the best fuel economy since they spend a lot of time developing and observing how to make cars so that they are efficient.

goodegg

BS huh? Noone does 100 mph eh?

Not talking about rush hour here folks. But take today in NW Atlanta burbs. Humming down I75 about 80mph (going with the flow) and was passed numerous times. One guy passing was probably going 95-100.

Rush hour on the top end is as fast as you can go until you hit the next bottleneck up ahead.

Move to Atlanta (along with the million+ people over the past 10 years) and you'll see.

lilengineerboy

I-94 from "the D" to Chi-town sees triple digit speeds.

kdshapiro

You guys are lucky. The trip computer clocks me at average 20mph on an average day to and from work. I'm lucky if I can make it to 30 much less 50.

jeffyscott

I gotta call BS on this. on the Freeways with no traffic, or very little, 75-85 is certainly common

I agree...I don't know where these guys are coming up with the idea that people commonly are going 90-100+ mph. Pretty much anywhere I have driven, if you are going 75-85 you are among the fastest cars on the road and rarely getting passed.

ontop

Move to Atlanta (along with the million+ people over the past 10 years) and you'll see.

Lived in N. Atlanta for 8 years. I think people are so hemmed in during rush hour that when it's not rush hour, they let it fly. And they do. If you're going 85 in the fast lane of the top end Perimeter you'll soon find out that ain't fast enough. And the GA 400 toll road is an all out free for all at times. Just about every day you'll see someone flying at 100mph+ - and many times up the right side. It's wild out there.

As for the sport bikes - yea. I-20 thru the city center. I think its gang related. 125mph +. I think there's a fatality there like once a month from a sport biker losing it.

lilengineerboy

I gotta call BS on this. on the Freeways with no traffic, or very little, 75-85 is certainly common

I agree...I don't know where these guys are coming up with the idea that people commonly are going 90-100+ mph. Pretty much anywhere I have driven, if you are going 75-85 you are among the fastest cars on the road and rarely getting passed.

Thats because you are the guy with Ohio plates in Michigan in the fast lane with your cruise control set at 70 and wondering why cars are jammed up behind you.

jacknzone

Well leadfoot I think I like to move there to live as here in NZ Our highways are most like your side roads and the cop like handing out ticket here (Its A police state)When I go out for a Drive ,I sat on 120 kph That about top speed here . There is always one that will go faster but more or less every one sat around the open road speed of a 100 kph or 110kph .The police here have a tolerance of 10 kph over the speed limit . If you go double the speed limit in any speed zone . you will loss your license and your car on the spot for 28 days By that time you have been to court . you would be facing a fine, loss of your license for maybe a year and the top end speeder loss there car and the same thing happen to the drunk driver here.What the drunk driver do is buy an car for about $500

toomanyfumes

I gotta agree. Chicago area (not rush hour) 80 plus mph and cars were flying past me. Many were not well maintained POS's, too.

jeffyscott

If you get a ticket for going <20 mph over the limit it is typically about a $100-200 fine. I imagine going double the limit on a freeway, which would mean 110-150 mph, might get your license suspended. Going double the limit in a 25 mph zone, probably not, because ususally the fine and other consequences would be based on how much over the limit you are going.

Typically here you can go 10 mph over with no problem. Though, I did get stopped going 74 in a 70 mph zone in Birmingham last spring. Was given a warning. (I found out later they had put a bunch of extra state cops in the area that weekend because of a motorcycle race.)

scape2

Agree, I live in a mid-size city and you can rarely get above 50mph.. on the freeway.

pat

We've been all over the place in the last few days. We need to get back to talking about the cars. Thanks.

ron_m

Yesterday I test drove a Fusion for the first time. Overall, I thought it was a pretty nice car. But the particular vehicle that I drove had some sort of problem with the front brakes. The car behaved like a vehicle does when the rotors are warped. Whenever I applied the brakes the front end shimmied way too much for a new car. I know that the rotors couldn't have been warped since it was a new car. Also, vehicles equipped with ABS systems do not behave like this car did. The sales manager tried to justify this braking behavior to me with two different reasons. Here are his two reasons:

1.) "Well, it's been sitting on the lot for a while, so the rust on the rotors needs to be wiped away by braking a few more times."

2.) "All cars equipped with ABS systems behave like that during braking. It's because the pads are coming in and out of contact with the rotors."

Weak excuses; both of them! I've driven countless numbers of vehicles with ABS systems and they haven't exhibited the same type of behavior that the '07 Fusion did that I test drove. I want to drive another one and compare the two whenever I get another opportunity to do so. It's just hard for me to believe that all Fusions have this same type of behavior during normal and aggressive braking.

Here are some of my main observations with the 2007 Fusion SEL V6 that I test drove yesterday:

-Ride was smooth and compliant enough.
-Cabin was quiet enough regardless of the road type(e.g. asphalt vs. cement) and speed in which I traveled.
-Acceleration was adequate.
-Leather seat comfort was average; not the best but certainly not the worst either.
-Engine noise during acceleration was a bit louder than I expected for a V6--but not intolerable.
-The audio trim bezel had somewhat of a cheap look and feel to it. I just didn't care for the appearance of the entire audio head unit and surrounding area when compared to offerings from some of Ford's competitors.
-Less refined feeling overall than my father's 2006 Accord that I drove to the Ford dealership for the test drive.
-Appealing exterior appearance, with the lone exception for me being the tail light assemblies. They just don't do it for me. (Are there any aftermarket tail light assemblies available yet for the Fusion they don't have so much chrome contained within them?)
-Overall fit and finish seemed acceptable for the price range of vehicle it was.
-Comfortable cabin in regards to size.
-Seemed to be a car that would be comfortable to take an extended vacation trip in.

All in all, I have to say the Fusion seemed to be a decent mid-size sedan for the money. With the exception of a few things here and there, the car would probably make my list of mid-size sedans to strongly consider. I still want to see how reliable these vehicles prove to be after 3 or more years of ownership when properly maintained. That should really be interesting to see. I wish Ford the best of luck, and hope that they get things turned around in the not too distant future. But it's going to be a major challenge for them due to the stiff competition that is out there today.

Ron

mf15

I just thought that I would add that when we bought our 05 Ford Escape, I drove one with the same problem with the rear brakes the rotors were warped and there was no rust on them. I told the salesman to pull out another of the same color, that one was fine we still have it and no problems. All the while the salesman was telling me how far Ford had come with quality, I was not overly impressed with the warped brakes but my wife wanted the car,so far so good.
I know this is a sedan thread but the same problem from the same company, years apart with different vehicles, I find to be interesting.
Old Mike

savetheland

Try Mercury Milan. It has nicer interior and tail-lamps.

jeffyscott

From what I have read, the syptoms of "warped" brakes may actually be due to the build-up of brake material on the rotors. So it might just be caused by the way the car has been driven.

bhmr59

Thanks for that eye-opening article. (I admit I didn't read it in entierity but certainly got the drift).

I've been driving cars with all wheel discs since 1971 and accepted the convention wisdom about warped rotors.

My interpretation, with or without ABS, it's a good idea to pump your brakes when coming to a stop sign or stop light and kinda slowly coast the last few feet before coming to a full stop.

kdshapiro

"My interpretation, with or without ABS, it's a good idea to pump your brakes when coming to a stop sign or stop light and kinda slowly coast the last few feet before coming to a full stop."

Actually that goes against conventional wisdom. Coming to a panic stop pumping brakes equipped with ABS will lengthen the stopping distance even more than necessary. Only pump non-ABS equipped vehicles. I've never had brakes pulsate from brake dust, I've had brakes pulsate from warped rotors.

If you read your owners manual of your ABS equipped car, I'm sure the manual will repeat what I just said.

Here's what the NHTSA says about ABS brakes:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/Equipment/absbrakes.html

bhmr59

I wasn't talking about a panic stop...just normal driving coming up to a stop sign or red light. And this (while maybe wrong on my part) to keep the additional heat of the pad off the rotor so as not to create a brake pad "foot print" on the rotor.

Read the article about "warped rotors" actually being pad material "burned" onto the rotor.

My car does not have ABS. But, as I understand them, ABS only kicks in during panic type stops. Is it correct to assume that ABS brakes behave like non-ABS brakes during normal driving conditions?

kdshapiro

"My car does not have ABS. But, as I understand them, ABS only kicks in during panic type stops. Is it correct to assume that ABS brakes behave like non-ABS brakes during normal driving conditions?"

Just as general information, ABS only functions when it detects wheel slippage from the road surface. Meaning if a wheel locks up, ABS will kick in. I've had vehicles with warped rotors, it's a PITA. If your car comes with crappy or defective rotors or badly designed brakes nothing you do can prevent warping. It is also said if you don't allow your brakes to "brake in" during the first couple of hundred miles it can cause warped rotors.

I drive my cars normally and don't expend any extra energy into trying to save them. Most brakes last me 40K to 50K, when they need fixin' I get them fixed.

bhmr59

So, pumping ABS brakes in normal conditions is OK?

My last car, I got 56K out of the original brakes. This is with very little highway driving and I have a curvey, steep hill to go down each day.

The replacement brakes lasted about 45K after turning the rotors and developed the "warped" rotor problem about 7K later. Maybe it wasn't the rotors but "residue" from making a hard stop on the second set of brakes.

kdshapiro

"So, pumping ABS brakes in normal conditions is OK?"

Under normal driving circumstances, I don't believe in pumping the brakes at all. Although I can't tell you if and when I've pumped the brakes on ABS equipped cars.

As far as your second set of brakes, maybe the rotors were crappy rotors or non-OEM. Or maybe you didn't go easy on them the first couple of hundred miles. You never said who installed the rotors, dealer or independent. If it was an independed they probably used generic rotors. I really don't know just guessing, but there seems to be misinformation about ABS brakes, that is all I was trying to address.

elroy5

If my OEM rotors ever needed changing, I think I would go for an upgrade (Brembo or another brand name company). There are no hills where I live, so the chances of my brakes overheating are much less. I have driven in steep hilly areas before, and I can see where it would be harder on the brakes.

mfletou1

I've been told by numerous GM techs that the Malibu brakes were warped from overheating due to lack of ventaliaton, and that our driving style was part of the problem. Of course, its not our driving style per se, its everybody's driving style---because when you drive the 395 corridor in Washington every day, there's only one driving style--stop and go. Essentially, the problem is simply low quality brakes. Still shouldn't happen, and to most people, DOESN'T happy. 10k on my Camry brakes--no warping, no squeaking, etc. In fairness, my Intrigue did a little better, but it still did have to have rotors replaced at 20k, done under warranty by GM because they felt the rotors had warped excessively over spec. The one instance where they actually stepped up for me! They had been resurfaced prior to that also.

There's no reason to pump ABS brakes, in an emergency stop, that's the wrong thing to do.

plekto

I've driven in Atlanta as well. I live in Los Angeles and I have to say that Atlanta was the only place where I felt less safe on the roads than here. And that's saying something. L.A. traffic is slowly wearing my nerves away. I must dodge a potential accident every 3-4 days lately.

And Atlanta is worse.

Seeing people doing 80+ in the rain when the road is practically flooding during a brief spring downpour and the insanity in the city center... Yeah I can believe it.

They just don't care about weather or conditions - they just go faster. It's an odd mix of city and country drivers with very little common sense inbetween.

2zmax

I'm with you on this one. I hate driving through Atlanta (I-75) Man do they have some crazy drivers or what? I was in a pile up in SE GA on I-95 when it started raining really hard and no one except for me even bother to slow down. God was looking out for me that day, as everyone around me got smashed but my new Maxima didn&#146;t even get scratched.
But LA is much worse, unless you have a big truck or an SUV with lots of power, don't try the interstate.
I was there for 3 days and saw many accidents on the same road every day. In addition the bikers are flying between the cars on the freeway - tell me if that is not insanity?

guest

" just thought that I would add that when we bought our 05 Ford Escape, I drove one with the same problem with the rear brakes the rotors were warped and there was no rust on them. I told the salesman to pull out another of the same color, that one was fine we still ...

Know this is off topic, but I used to own an 01 Escape XLT V6 4WD and it was a great vehicle. 75,000 trouble free miles.. Just maintain it and it will be fine...

guest

I strongly believe and have been told by some techs its advised to "pump" your brakes when coming to a stop. Now when I mean "pump" your brakes. I mean when you see up ahead you are going to have to stop you just tap your brakes little at a time until you come to the stop. Same way when going down a hill, you don't ride your brakes all the way down, you just tap the brakes to slow the car down little by little. I was told this give even wear along with not letting the rotors heat up. Constant, instant stopping can warp rotors. In all the vehicles I have owned over the years I have easily gone upwards of 50,000 miles or more before a brake/rotor replacement was needed.

kdshapiro

"In all the vehicles I have owned over the years I have easily gone upwards of 50,000 miles or more before a brake/rotor replacement was needed."

The same, but I don't tap my brakes, I use them as necessary. I don't try to preserve the life of them.

meateater

Yup - Atlanta is an all out free for all.

And I grew up driving the mess around metro DC and its aggressive driving requirements.

I gotta say that Broward County FL (Ft Lauderdale area) has gotta be up there too. Same high speeds but nicer cars!

captain2

I think you will find that the most common cause of rotor warpage is 'riding the brakes' and otherwise, vehicles in heavily congested areas. Front pads will generally wear at about twice the rate of the rears - the rotors themselves should rarely require work unless you are careless. I can only wish as many brake problems as possible on those 2 footed drivers that accelerate away from me with the brake lights ablaze!