Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

imidazol97

Isn't it just terrible the way car companies sell cars to those rental fleets. Last I noticed at a local satellite location there were Nissans, TWO Camrys, a couple 'a Fords, etc. Just terrible. Not a GM product in sight.

Oh, maybe there were rented out as more desirable cars to drive.

I have seen some Chrysler products with rental stickers on them driving in the area near the airport... I'll do a drive thru at the airport outlots to see what the major rentals have sitting in their lots.

Gimme a break on the rental car stuff.

m1miata

In the GM line, for looks, the Impala may be the best in the FWD cars. The last couple of decades Malibu has never been worthy of the name. The Aura is OK, though Saturns always look busy stylewise, like they are trying too hard to overcome the bland. No the Impala, which is more like a pregnant Accord, may now be the style leader in appliance transportation. That said, not too bad looking, so calling it an appliance or rental car, may no longer fit. It is now handsome enough inside and out to compete. Is it a better buy? To each his or her own as to what works. It is like the old debate on engines between OHC and pushrods. Both have value. I like the looks of the Milan, but if in the market for sedan in this class, I would probably look into a used Impala. Should be a buy in the one to two year old range.
-Loren

bobw3

I don't know...that's why I'm asking the question...again:

Why is it a negative thing for manufacturers to sell to rental fleets, or to other businesses? Don't they make a profit from it?

If not, then why don't they charge more to the rental companies for their cars. It doesn't matter to me if the car I'm driving is being used at every rental lot out there. Sure it affects residuals, but I keep my car long enough that depreciation isn't an issue.

m1miata

The Impala is a pretty fair value with a V6 - used. The V8, I doubt is that great a deal. Best to simply buy a year old DeVille or DTS for the same price as a new Impala V8. Much more car, and the Caddy is likely to have really low miles on her.
-Loren

captain2

GM, in fact, loses $2500.00 on every car it sells - it simply sells them for a higher price than you and me. When Hertz, let's say, sends out a request for bid, for 10000 cars - the price for those cars is not even related to what you and I pay even including these massive rebates/employee discount programs. In effect, selling cars to the rental cos. hurts the manufacturers in both model perception (every time you see a Sebring, for example' don't you also expect to see a green 'E'), model initial and resale values, and most importantly, in the pocketbook. Ford continued production on the Taurus in 06/07 just to supply the rental market, Hyundai is on some sort of campaign to get as many American butts in the Sonata as possible (thru the rental lots), and Honda, in particular, stays above the whole nasty 'game'. Which car do you suppose retains its value the best and is also the one the sells for some number closest to sticker price? Does Hertz, in fact, actually, buy the car, don't know, but it does nobody any good if a car they bought becomes a rental lot favorite.

m1miata

Depends on how "rental car" you want to go. I wouldn't want the Malibu Classic, or Taurus, though I must say, they are not the worst cars in history by any means. Some of these just seem to scream I am now but a rental car. Should that matter, perhaps not.

As far as people telling other what to buy, or their choice is totally wrong, it is obviously a ridiculous stand to take. If I want to buy a Crown Vic, I know that it is a police car, and a taxi car, and it has an old chassis. Maybe I want to buy an old body on frame car, or like RWD cars for a low price. The way I look at it sharing opinions is great, but when it comes to a purchase, it is my money. If I want say a '04 Mustang instead of the '07, I don't have to justify my decision, as I know why it is best for me.
-Loren

captain2

If not, then why don't they charge more to the rental companies for their cars
the simple answer is that they can't - they are in effect forced to build to build cars as a function of keeping plants open and UAW members happy (a situation Ford is trying to 'buy' its way out of). So, overproduction is the issue because they can't seem to find enough real buyers and must get rid of the inventory somehow. Hyundai's approach is different, however, they don't seem to be too concerned much about profit/loss only market penetration - and it seems to be working.

backy

Hyundai has cut back on fleet sales of the Sonata.

Maybe if enough car companies reduce or eliminate fleet sales, the remaining suppliers will be able to charge more for their cars. Which will bring the hold-outs back into the fleet sales market. Which will reduce prices of the fleet cars again... :confuse:

jeffyscott

My point, was that people sometimes pay more to get what they want. It does not make them suckers.

Sure, I do not disagree with that. If I did I'd have a problem with my wife, who bought a Jetta .

Sonata may well still be a bit cheaper than the Fusion, but my impression is they are a lot closer in price than the Accord and the Fusion are.

goodegg

I tried hard to like the Impala, but the interior is so old-school compared to an Accord that I never gave it serious thought. You stare at the interior most of the time anyway so you'd better love it. The Accord has the sweetest interior of any of these cars. Honda really knows how to appeal to all the senses of a driver.

Maybe the 08 Accord will incorporate aromatherapy into their offering.

imidazol97

Can we limit the drooling over ones car preference? I had to wipe the drool off my screen here.

bobw3

So you're saying that when Hertz buys the Fusion for example, they're only paying $15K, while the consumer pays $20K after incentives/rebates? And for example, it costs Ford $18K to build the car, so they lose $3K on the fleet sale and make $2K on the consumer sale, but that they only do fleet sales to unload the cars they overproduce. In that case, it seems to be smart to cut production and only produce what the consumer demands, since they're losing money on fleet sales. But to me it seems that the problem is really over production rather than fleet sales. If Ford didn't have so many extra cars to get rid of, then maybe they could make a profit selling to rental car companies.

goodegg

Why? I don't mind you doing that over whatever one you want to. Or is there a little envy going on here?

bobw3

I think if people say WHY they bought their car, then there can be some discussion on those reasons. So if someone wants the safest car and bases their decision on IIHS results, then that's a logical reason. Or if someone bases their decision on options that are available on their selection but not on another, then that's a logical reason. Of if someone wants sportiness, so their selection gets lots of good reviews on the power and handling, then that's a discussion topic.

But I think the pointless argruments are from people making broad judgements about a car or an entire manufacturer, or passing judgement on styling and looks, which is completely subjective. Even seat comfort, for example, has some objective merits because if a few people comment about the uncomfortable seats in CarX, then other folks can more closely pay attention to the seats during their test drives. So it's good to point out the less than obvious differences in cars.

But the comments on style and the over-generalizations are worthless.

meateater

Does sound a little envious to me....nothing wrong about praising a car. I thought raggin' on Fords was what got this thing going.

captain2

The Fusion would be a bad example because Ford has specifically limited fleet sales and production (they can do that in Mexico), but your numbers may be close. As the 'US' mfgrs. are recognizing the 'loss leader' aspect of these kind of 'sales', the Hertzs of the world will have slimmer pickings (and fewer bidders) and would logically be forced to pay more for the cars. The UAW contracts are largely forcing the mfgrs to keep plants open and operating - Ford will lose billions this year because it is spending pretty much all its available cash to pay a lot of their employess not to work. The 'Japanese' 3, OTH, can sell pretty much everything they can produce, don't need the fleet sales to keep busy and consequently are able to keep the values up on what they sell...

thegraduate

Sonata may well still be a bit cheaper than the Fusion, but my impression is they are a lot closer in price than the Accord and the Fusion are.

Whether or not disparity is larger or not, I don't really care (you may certainly be correct, I can't prove you wrong and won't try to do so because you have been so respectful). I know you weren't the one arguing the fact, so I'm really not directing this at you particularly, jeffyscot. The issue I find fault with is the stand that, while scape paid more for a Fusion over a Sonata and it is ok because he liked the styling and handling of the Fusion, I paid more for an Accord over a Fusion because I liked the handling/ride compromise and the interior design and suddenly I'm "brainwashed", and can't see past brand image, and I have "wasted my money." You see why I have a problem with that, I presume... He/She has done the exact thing I have done, paid the price to get what I wanted, and didn't go immediately for the least expensive vehicle on the market (and I'm not calling any of them cheap, just not to my "liking" for reasons I've explained previously). I bought what I wanted, paid a fair price for it (around True Market Value), and am in the "living happily ever after" stage of purchasing my vehicle. Does that mean I wasted my money or was "blind" to image? Certainly not (again, jeffyscott, you weren't the one implying this, and I'm not directing this post AT you). I'm just further explaining my past statements.

captain2

I think that Honda/Toyota would rather pull out of the US altogether than be in a position to 'give away' Camcords, or even have it perceived as a 'rent' car. They are proud of their cars and have every reason to be.

backy

Too late. Based on all the Camrys in rental fleets such as Hertz's (not to mention Corollas, Siennas, Avalons etc.), Toyotas are already firmed entrenched as "rental cars." Honda isn't in that position, however.

bobw3

And it doesn't seem to hurt Toyota's sales...

captain2

I'll tell you what then - go out and rent a Camry, pull it into your driveway and tell me what your neighbors say - would bet something like 'is that the new Camry, mind if I take a look'. Do that with something like a Sebring/Impala/Malibu and it should be more like 'hope you didn't get hurt in your an accident'.
That would be perception that 'Detroit' is now fighting.
And sure it is possible to rent anything, Corollas especially.

bobw3

Unless I was pulling a Mercedes into my driveway, my neighbors wouldn't be too interested in checking out a Camry, Accord, Sebring, Impala, Malibu, Fusion, etc.

captain2

stuck up neighbors?

backy

I am not sure I'd want to subject my neighbors to the visual pain of having a Sebring in my driveway--I like my neighbors!!

guest

First off, I don't know where you are getting your prices for an absolutely loaded Hyundia Sonata? When I priced there was about a $500 or so difference between a loaded Sonata and a loaded Fusion. Now load up a Honda or Toyota and the price difference starts to really become a hot topic.. Are you getting buyers remorse here? or what? You paid more to get what? a perceived advantage.. Maybe next time you shop the car market instead of one car maker? Live with your choice and get over it.. :shades: Move on..

scape2

New Malibu looks great! I tip my hat to GM, about time! I don't feel it looks anything like an Acura TL.. But some also said that Toyota didn't take styling from the Mazda 6.. When I see a new Camry, I have to look twice to make sure it isn't a 6.. Someone posted frontends a while back of the 6 and the Camry.. Toyota in my book took styling from Mazda...

scape2

"I'll tell you what then - go out and rent a Camry, pull it into your driveway and tell me what your neighbors say - would bet something like 'is that the new Camry, mind if I take a look'. Do that with something like a Sebring/Impala/Malibu and it should be more like 'hope you didn't get hurt in your an accident'.
That would be perception that 'Detroit' is now fighting.
And sure it is possible to rent anything, Corollas especia

Sorry Cap have to disagree, I have now owned my Fusion for about 8 months. The first 3-4 months of ownership I can easily say on average of 4 people a week ask me how I like it and to take a peek. Even still, I get people asking about the Fusion..

elroy5

Now load up a Honda or Toyota and the price difference starts to really become a hot topic..

If you were to load up a Fusion to be comparable to the loaded Accord/Camry, you would not have a Fusion. It would be called an MKZ, and would cost more than a loaded Accord/Camry.

jimmy81

Scape2 = by

Scape - why a pseudoname? To make it look like there are other Fusioners just like you?

CamCords owners don't need to resort to covert tactics.

goodegg

Why do all these cars in this comparo have FWD? Which RWD (not AWD) vehicles could be considered in this sector?

elroy5

Why do all these cars in this comparo have FWD?

I think it's because RWD costs more, adds weight, lowers fuel mileage, lowers power, and therefore makes competing in this segment very difficult. The midsize cars that do have RWD are, for the most part, luxury models.

bhmr59

Golf buddy & I flew out to Tempe, AZ 3/16/06. Got our rental from Enterprise at 7 AM on 3/17. They had us assigned for a new Nissan Maxima. As a very satisfied owner of an 11 month old '05 Sonata I asked if they had an '06 Sonata we could have instead of the Maxima.

The guys at this location, on Baseline Rd, didn't even know what a Sonata was, never mind that they didn't have any available to rent.

At 2:30pm on 3/17 we got clobbered by a DC while stopped in a traffic jam on I-10 in Chandler, pushed into the the vehicle ahead of us and spun into the median. Of course the Maxima was totaled. The nearest Enterprise location picked us up. They didn't have any Sonatas, but one guy thought he had heard of it. We got an underpowered '05 Malibu POS as replacement car, but we were glad to get it. Should have gone back to the original Enterprise to change cars again, but we were too messed up. Only drove around 200 miles in 9 days, which is nothing in that area, especially since our first golf trip on 3/17 was about 50 miles.

The Maxima did a great job in keeping us from serious injury, but the point I want to make is that there were no Sonata rentals available at two different Enterprise locations.

elroy5

The guys at this location, on Baseline Rd, didn't even know what a Sonata was, never mind that they didn't have any available to rent.

You would be surprised at how many people don't know what a Sonata is. An older guy I work with thought Hyundai and Honda were the same company, go figure. I think they were just shocked that you wanted a Sonata, instead of a Maxima :confuse:

neteng101

Everyone talking about the Fusion now, wait till you try to sell it 5 years from now and see what you can get for it. Honda has the best residual values followed by Toyota. You can't even find Ford on the list here...

https://www.alg.com/awards.aspx

A Fusion may be a value buy now, but it'll be like junk bonds when you trade it in someday.

thegraduate

Sometimes posters' names don't always appear. I've seen a host talk about it before, it is a programming glitch at Edmunds.com servers IIRC.

m1miata

Nothing quite matches the ugly nose of the new Camry. The rear of the Camry is much like a Bangle butt, nicely done. I would rate side and rear of Camry as pretty fair, but the nose is plain weird. The Fusion and Milan are designed well, with a bit of a tall butt to them. My preference is the Milan. The Mazda6 looks lower and a bit sporty - not bad. The new Impala is nicely redone inside and out. Lost the traditional round rear tail lights, but the overall effect of the change works. Looks as good if not better than the smaller Accord it sort of clones.
-Loren

m1miata

I doubt that a Camry would impress much -- try a BMW3, though in my California city, they are pretty common as well. Maybe I will buy a Monte Carlo, those seem to have a negative effect on people in the chat rooms. Not sure why. Sure, some of the lines don't work as well together as one would hope for, but I feel the overall effect is not so bad at all. Has sort of an old school "over-styled" look about it, in a modern rendition of a past stylings which kinda got out of control. Think of it as fins on cars, or a not to be taken all too seriously curvaceous work of art. At least it is not an appliance car.

A Camry is just another knock off of the Bangle butt to the rear, and well I am not sure what it is up front -- something wrong of course. Overall, the Camry has been a pretty solid car over the years. If I saw one in the neighbors driveway, I would think, yet another practical appliance car buyer.
-Loren

elroy5

Maybe I will buy a Monte Carlo, those seem to have a negative effect on people in the chat rooms. Not sure why.

I had an 06 Monte Carlo as a rental for 2 weeks, and it was not very well put together. The large heavy doors were already starting to be a problem at 15k miles (you had to put just the right amount of force behind closing the door, or it would not close, or bounce back out on you). The A/C controls are hard to reach (behind the shift lever). Smooth, but somewhat nervous ride quality.

akirby

Do not assume that Fusions will have poor resale. The Automotive Lease Guide predicts the Fusion resale to be in between a Camry and an Accord. 2 things affect resale value - oversupply and huge incentives on new vehicles. You're thinking about the Taurus which suffered from both. Ford is purposely not taking that approach with the Fusion. They're keeping production modest and they won't produce more than they can sell with minimal incentives. They're limiting rental fleet sales to avoid flooding the used car market.

thegraduate

They're keeping production modest and they won't produce more than they can sell with minimal incentives. They're limiting rental fleet sales to avoid flooding the used car market.

Thank goodness Ford finally got the idea, and was able to implement it! That should help it as a company and a model line in a major way.

booyahcramer

2 things affect resale value - oversupply and huge incentives on new vehicles.

That's 2 of the 10 things that affect resale value. Other more important factors like reliability and market acceptance have a big impact of those values, and a Fusion will suffer the same plight as any other car with the Ford emblem on it. Just because it also says Fusion on the car will do little to change Ford's hideous resale value legacy.

akirby

Those are the biggest factors. If you think the Fusion isn't reliable you haven't been paying attention. Ford is not building cars the same way they did 5 years ago.

captain2

agree with the other poster -2 of many many things, the first of which is probably initial purchase price - the reason why Camcords have some much residual value is the fact that they do cost that that much more off the lot. For the Fusion to be the first Ford since the Model T to command a reasonable resale value is a stretch of logic that defies that brand's history.
The public perception of what is a good used (or new) car is also not likely to change - the 'Blue Oval' and, for that matter, the other "Detroit" brands not going to be high on anybody's list. For a reason. Indeed, they may all be wrong - the jury is still out on many of these cars - but rest assured, the buyer will be willing to pay more for a car made by somebody whose name ends in a vowel. There's about 25 years or so of history to support that claim.

midwesttrader

Scape; I see the Camry, Sebring, Impala, Malibu, and Corolla mentioned in the captain's post. I do not see the Fusion mentioned at all. What is the point of your response?

midwesttrader

Ok then, would the author of post #10140 please identify themself by their user name?

Personally, I think it's scape too.

pat

Hi scape - let me let everyone know that you have no control over this thing that happens where your name doesn't show up. Fortunately, we know it's you anyway.

Now, let me ask you and everyone else to hear some important points akirby made yesterday in his post here, specifically:

This is all rather silly... We're all trying to justify our vehicle purchases to folks who bought a different vehicle, which leads to nothing but arguments.

and

I think it would be much more helpful to keep the discussion to the differences in features, prices and options rather than trying to prove that one car is better than another.

Some of us are going overboard in ridiculing others' choices. There are a lot of terrific choices in this sector, and we all have different needs and priorities. That's a good thing - otherwise things would be pretty dull if we all agree there was only one "correct" car!! :P

Listen to your fellow poster - he made some very wise statements.

backy

Perhaps the best deal on a quality mid-sized sedan right now is the Mazda6. I heard a radio ad today from a dealer in my town (Walser Mazda, no-haggle dealership) that offered $3000 off every 2007 Mazda6, and $1000 more off if you use Mazda financing. $4000 off even the lower-priced Mazda6i is pretty hard to beat right now, given that rebates have slacked off on the Sonata in recent months. It puts the Mazda6i into economy-car price territory, actually in the same ballpark as the Mazda3!

akirby

I understand why people who haven't been following Ford closely might not understand the changes that are taking place. Up until a few years ago Ford was all about volume - keeping the plants busy, keeping their #1 sales position - and not caring so much about quality. After the Focus recall fiasco Ford made a concerted effort (I think led by Jim Padilla) to improve quality. If you look at the new vehicles that have been launched since then (500, F150, Mustang, Fusion) you'll find almost no recalls and very few problems overall. The Edge should continue that tradition. Whatever the problem was, it appears they've figured that part out. I guess we won't know for sure for a few more years but right now it looks very good.

The other change is more recent. Ford has publicly said they are cutting back production to match demand and will no longer be pursuing high percentages of rental fleet sales. New vehicles like the Fusion and Edge are being produced with modest sales targets. Ford is no longer chasing market share and is using buyouts to get rid of excess plant capacity whereas in the past they would have simply produced more vehicles and dumped them into rental fleets or put thousands of dollars on the hood to get rid of them.

This is a fundamental change at Ford which Fields and Mulally are pushing, along with more focus on the products themselves. The Fusion was new for 06, received AWD in 07 and should get a hybrid model in 08. It will also be completely redone for 09 (employees and media have already seen a preview). Quite a change for a company that let the Taurus wither on the vine for a decade.

This is why the comparisons to past Ford performance are not valid - it's not the same company. The Detroit Auto show should shed a lot of light on where the company is headed.

captain2

I agree with you that Ford is doing what it must do to survive - but the question does remain - can they survive it? I don't think there would be a whole lot of public support for a 'Chrysler' style bailout. To assume that Ford's current crop of newer offerings may or may not be 'junk in 5 years' is unfair, but you would sure be silly to buy a bunch of their bonds right now!

goodegg

Well good luck to Ford. I'd like to see them become prosperous, but the competition offers up some hard to beat choices.

It'll take many years for Ford to get past hard feelings from the damage done by their previous clunkers. It'll happen one day, but I don't think a couple of years will turn the battleship around. In 5-7 years we'll know. If Ford's still humming along it'll mean they've turned the corner and can compete with the Asians.

Then I might be ready to reFord some day.