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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
According to the April issue of Consumer Reports, reliability for the Mazda6 has dropped to below average.
- Greg
i've owned two accords in the past and both were extremely reliable. but i think you're looking at the accord rather than the camry (the other reliability leader) b/c the accord handles better. if this is true, you will like the mazda. i've been a huge honda-holic for quite some time, so for me to buy a mazda says something. if there is a chance you'll have passengers in the back, four doors is much easier. also sit in the accord coupe and look to the blind spots behind you at the corners...it's hard to see.
in terms of reliability though, the honda does have a better trackrecord. my feeling though is that over the past 10 years, cars in general have become much more reliable (if you look at the difference between what is average and better than average in CU, the difference per 100 cars is minimal). I looked at it from the perspective of one car as having a 95% chance of being solid vs another that had an 88% chance. still really good odds either way. but these percentages can not reflect another factor; fun. drive them both. they both have pluses and minuses...but i think you'll like the steering and sense of control with the mazda. and when you walk up to your car, you can admire the sexy lines of the hatchback with a bit of pride.
Also, someone mentioned the Accord Coupe's rear blind spot- even worse is the A-pillar blind spot, the pillar is wide and has a long slope, blocks oncoming cars to the left on a curvy road. I often had to move my head about 8" to the right going around sharp turns, very unnerving.
1. Fusion
2. Jetta
3. G6
Why not Accord/Camry? I want something different. Something not everyone ownes.. just my $.02.. Cheers..
Just a heads up about the G6. The only person I know that owns a G6 is currently fighting to get the lemon law declared for hers. She has had a whole new engine put into it and a multitude of other problems already....and she hasn't even had it for a year!
And, just my opinion on the jetta...they are hidious!!!! I vomit in my mouth every time one drives by me. It pretty much looks like it was the end result of a car wreck involving every ugly non-german car available!
Personally, I'm very impressed with the MZ6. However, my fiance has her heart set on a MZ3 GT-automatic, so the MZ6 is the runner-up in our decision.
We also looked at Accords, but while they have somewhat of an upscale look now, they lack pizazz.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.....just please take the G6 off your list!
2. Jetta - Volkswagen's reliability problems? No thanks.
3. G6 - You stated that you wanted something different. We're talking plain vanilla GM here. Maybe they'll survive bankruptcy.
I'd reconsider your options from the Asian brands, even though all of those models are built in the United States by American workers. You can't beat their quality and reliability.
I'd say look at a Mazda6 but I don't like what they have done with the design.
The Ford Five Hundred and Freestyle have not been out for a long time, so reliability is still unproven. So far, it seems Ford is improving. Also, their resale values are not considered high. Ford's value pricing (and fleet sales) really hurt their resale values. If you're going to say a car has a high resale value, Accord would fit in better.
**At the end of the day where the profits of the foreign car maker go? Toyota last year made US$10+ billions (about half of it from US market). Honda and Nissan are not far behind in term of profit in US. Don't you wish that kind of money stay here in US.
"The Ford Five Hundred and Freestyle have not been out for a long time, so reliability is still unproven. So far, it seems Ford is improving. Also, their resale values are not considered high. Ford's value pricing (and fleet sales) really hurt their resale values. If you're going to say a car has a high resale value, Accord would fit in better."
** you can not compare apples to oranges. Ford Five Hundred have just been around 2 years and Accord have been around what? 20+ years. Hypothetically, if Honda has just released a car named "HonCord" for 2 years, can you say the released car is very reliable?
But Honda and Toyota have come a long, long way in the last 30+ years. Hyundai has been doing the same for the last 5 years or so. It will be interesting to see how Hyundai, Toyota & Honda compare 5 years from now. Those "foolish" enough to buy Hyundai now may have big grins on their faces.
Anyway, it was a piece of junk. Honda started improving in the early '80's. By '84 or '85 there were waiting lists for the Accord with dealers charging above MSRP.
Honda Accord: Generations
Maye your neighbor had a 74 Civic? It was introduced in 73.
Honda Civic: Generations
One more thing to add to significant events of 1976...my municipal golf course opened for its first season.
1. Fusion
2. Jetta
3. G6
Why not Accord/Camry? I want something different. Something not everyone ownes.. just my $.02.. Cheers..
Were there test drives done on these three vehicles? Personally, I'd choose the G6 out of thosse choices. Bland for Pontiac standards or not, I think it looks pretty sharp personally. And since we are not talking about reliability pace-setters here, I'd go with looks, engine, and seat comfort-cabin ergonomics.
The Jetta came out on top.
publicity but their survey is not random and they do not
survey an equal number of each car model.
The key point is that they only survey their subscribers. A person who is willing to pay for a subscription has probably had experiences that agree with their previous opinions; so their opinions are self perpetuating.
A better, independent survey is in the auto section of msn.com. The survey is done by a company that surveys
repair shops in the US.
It is true that CR surveys only subscribers, but almost the entire survey is not about opinions, but about problems that owners have had with cars. So I don't see how the survey can be "self perpetuating". Also, CR doesn't include the survey results if they don't get enough samples for a particular model.
As a counter-example to your argument, CR used to think Korean cars were pretty awful (and they were). But as these cars have improved, so have the survey results, and CR's test results as well, so now they recommend several Korean vehicles. They won't recommend the '06 Sonata until it establishes at least an "average" reliability record in their survey, and does well on the NHTSA (yes) and IIHS (unknown) crash tests.
Honda has more to lose than Toyota. If the Fusion/Milan/Zeph do take off, and the buying public approves.. Ford has the capacity to increase production to meet demand. Honda does not. Toyota on the other hand does have $$$ to increase Camry production..
I agree. Most times I tune into Motorweek for its visuals only to get an idea of the dynamics and features of the car but both Car and Driver and especially Testdrive on Speed are better on this score.
My favorite TV auto programs are Autoline and RPM. Autoline, hosted by John McEnroy, is a very low budget studio production that is blessed by being in Detroit where lots of auto experts (journalists, researchers and industry reps) still reside. The last few episodes summarized the best of 05 and gave a reality check to all the glossing and gushing of marketing types. A strange undercurrent to this show is its visceral fear of China; no doubt this is due in part to the current difficulties of GM and Ford. RPM is a Quebec-based one hour show that has the most rigorous testing I have ever seen: the producers not only inspect the engine, the tires, the brakes, the suspension, the interior but also the underside of the car! In Canada and (likely northern USA) the underside is the Achilles heel for the long-term use of a vehicle. RPM also has the most interesting visuals; the 0 to 60 mph sprint, the avoidance test, the slalom all illustrate the vehicles handling ability. In a recent test of the Mazda5 and the Pontiac Vibe it was interesting to find that both vehicles need improved braking power and that the suspension of the Vibe is significantly challenged in slaloms (think of passing on the highway) and is prone to diving in abrupt stops or obstacle avoidance.
A new year's wish to Motorweek, Car and Driver and other autoTV producers: study Autoline and RPM to get ideas to improve your own.
p.s. if one could choose a favorite navigator, Antoinette Crosby from Motorweek would top my list!
2.4 litre DOHC VVT-i, ULEV II, hood strut
158hp, 161lb-ft
3.5 litre V6 DOHC VVT-i (doesn't say dual), Variable Induction System, ULEV II, hood strut
268hp, 248lb-ft
VSC standard on SE V6 and XLE V6, optional on LE V6
5M on SE, opt. 5A. 5A standard on LE
6MM standard on all V6 models(that means 6 speed auto with sequential shift)
ABS, EBD, BA and 4-wheel disc brakes are standard.
P215/60R16 on LE/XLE models
P215/55R17 on SE models
FE:
V6 city/hwy L/100km (Imp. mpg)
10.7/7.0 (26/40)
4 cylinder auto
9.8/6.5 (29/43)
4 cylinder manual
9.6/6.4 (29/44)
Key standard features on all models:
Dual front knee airbags, side airbags, side curtain airbags, dual front airbags, engine immobiliser, auto headlights, CD/MP3/WMA, AUX Input, 6 speakers, steering wheel mounted audio controls (JBL with 8 speakers, 6-CD Changer, Bluetooth connectivity and diversity antenna on XLE V6), tilt/tele steering wheel.
Standard extras on XLE V6:
Dual-Zone auto climate control, plasma cluster, power heated front seats, rear sunshade, smart key system, push button start, bluetooth, auto dimming mirror w/compass, foglights, and reclining rear seats
Standard extras on SE models:
Front sport seats, sport design scuff plates, aluminium sport pedals, 17" alloys, sport style grille, side skirts, rear spoiler, chrome tail pipe, foglights
LE Pkg "B" - Alloys, wheel locks, auto dimming mirror w/compass, mudguards, power driver's seat, dual illuminated vanity mirrors
LE Pkg "C" - B + Power moonroof, integrated garage door opener
SE Pkg "B" - power passenger seat, leather seat surfaces, heated front seats, power moonroof, Homelink, dual illuminated vanity mirrors, auto dimming mirror w/compass
LE V6 Pkg "B" - VSC, auto dimming mirror w/compass, dual illuminated vanity mirrors, power moonroof, Homelink
SE V6 Pkg "B" -JBL Audio, 6-CD Changer, power passenger seat, leather seat surfaces, heated front seats, power moonroof, theft-deterrent system
Colours (as per chart) are as follows
Alpine White, Titanium Silver, Magnetic Grey Metallic, Black, Barcelona Red Metallic, Frosted Mink Pearl, Aloe Green Metallic, Blue Ribbon Metallic
Credit: Magneto112
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So... all airbags standard and push button on XLE. But it looks like power driver seat is no longer standard on the LE 4 cylinder, which would have been nice.
The Avalon is 26/39 Canadian and 22/31 in the US, so it looks like the 2007 V6 Camry will be 22/31 or 22/32 in the US.
Fuel economy for the 2006 Camry 4 cylinder is 28/44 Canadian and 24/34 US, so that would mean the 2007 Camry 4 cylinder auto will be 24/33 in the US.
So... nothing really special about the bread and butter LE 4 cyl. in terms of power, mpg, and features compared to the competition (except the knee airbags), while the V6 XLE is sounding more and more like a Lexus.
I was originally very concerned about the power from the 4 cylinder, but reading the RAV4 thread has allayed my fears somewhat. Most people are generally positive about the performance-comments such as "The power is certainly acceptable from the 4-banger (my last car was an Infiniti G35 6-sp)." This vehicle is also handicapped by a lower-tech 4 speed transmission, and weighs 3510 lbs in AWD/4cyl form).
I'm surprised that the XLE V6 will contine to wear 16 inch tires, and wonder if this will change for the US. Happy that the 4s now use 16 inchers with wider treads, along with the increased track and revised suspension, my expectations are high for significantly improved handling.
I'm sure packages will be different for the US as well, as you guys dont even get an XLE 4, correct? Should be interesting this time next week....
~alpha
Actually, I don't think they offer that engine/trans combo in anything else, so it would have to be certified, so I wouldn't hold my breath.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If you haven't done this, then you should. It may cause you to change your talking points about Ford having a "serious lack of commitment to the american market" and producing lame, badly-assembled cars.
I test drove a Fusion SEL last night, and you can't possibly be describing the same car that I drove. It was extremely well built. The assembly quality was high. The interior was notably better than the Hyundai Sonata's. I liked the way it performed better as well.
-- Bokonon
I drove & compared the Fusion along w/ other comparable autos and found the Fusion to be a nice package, but IMO, the Sonata had better fit & finish to the interior pieces, and the knobs, buttons etc. had a more substantial feel to them. It was also a bit quieter and seemed to have better acceleration (the V6) than the Fusion.
The Accord is constantly "bland", "vanilla" etc. But the Accord managed to beat the TSX, Speed6 and G6.
Only difference is that I got the 4 cyl/5 speed model, instead of the 6/6. Otherwise, effectively the same car, and the comments really could apply (other than the fact that I spent about 6K less on it!). Yeah, the 4 cyl isn't as fast, but it is still pretty quick with the stick, especially for the 95% of the time that I wouldn't be able to get near the extra power of the V6.
For a few hunded $$, I could upgrade the suspension to the slightly stiffer sport set up (or beyond), although the car as is handles nicely, and benefits from the lower weight up front.
I did like the interior and seats of the TSX, but really didn't like the buzzy nature due to the shorter gearing. Plus, the extra few features over the Accord didn't really justify the cost differential.
I did really like driving the Jetta (it does have sharper handling than the Accord), but just couldn't bring myself to get into bed with a VW for a long term relationship.
So, the Accord won overall, even though it isn't the "sportiest" of the choices, it still holds it's own. Plus, it has the "bones" to really be a handler with a few upgrades (pun intended). And the interior layout, features and comfort is hard to beat.
That, and as noted above, it might not be flashy, but it gets the job done surprisingly well.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well put.
The Accord may not be the sportiest sedan out there, or the most comfortable. But it manages to combine both worlds together.
The Accord had impressive numbers on the tests. Second fastest sedan, Speed6 was faster. *But the Accord was actually faster than the Speed6 in the 5-60 test.
Question Lexuslover. Does Lexus have a 10 year warranty? So your own company can't measure up to Hyundai's warranty as well right? Try not throwing stones from that large glass house.
And why is the Fusion a joke when it took second place in a comparison test and every reviewer has said that it is finally competition for the foreign midsizers. Statistically how different is the Fusion from the Hyundai quality wise, since Hyundai and Ford aren't that far from each other in the first place in initial quality on a per car basis.
And to keep it straight, Ford still builds most of its vehicles here in the states. It also does the far majority of the design, marketing, and engineering in the states (you know, the most expensive part of the car making process). The Fusion and the Sonata are too new to determine how resale values will pab out. The Sonata has had $3K on the hood already so we'll see where the pieces fall.
And by the way, the Fusion is built in Mexico because the UAW janitors make upwards to 50 bucks an hour. You do the math.
They faulted the 6 for not having a sunroof, which Mazda thought of but didn't do to gain much important structural rigidity and than praised it for the rigidity. Then they fault the interior for not having leather, even though thaey only tested the sport model and not the GT version which has the leather standard. In comparison, they added options to the Accord. And additionally the Mazda wasn't the most expensive model (I think it was third on the list), which means they could have gone GT and still been price competitive. I don't feel it was fair for C&D to add options to the Accord and fault the Mazda when they could have doen the same. I remember a guy saying that in Car and Driver a Honda could win, even if it wasn't one of the cars in the comparison. Edmunds all out car comparo a while back put the Accord first and the Mazda6 s second and said the Mazda was the only one "that you'd find an excuse to drive". Now C&D comes in with this nonsense. The Speed6 owned the entire track save for one comparison the 5-60 run. It was a sports sedan comparison, with the Mazda having 274 hp and AWD, but somehow Honda triumphed. It is almost like playing against the dealer at the casino.
Interestingly, the Accord is in there but not the Legacy GT. Now wouldn't that make more sense. I'll give you that the Legacy is a better car than the Mazda all day long. But the comparison was definitely a little skewed.
Mazdaspeed6: $28,555
So instead of being $1,295 a part, they would be $635. Sounds good to me.
Additionally, on Mazda's website it has leather as standard. I only read the magazine quickly in CVS, but I was sure they faulted it for not having leather. May have been a preproduction model or something.
The Legacy, according to the Subie website is $29,420 with destination. Why don't they just go ahead and compare an Accord to a E55 AMG and give it the crown as well.
I was surprised that the Mazdaspeed6 came 4th in the comparison. It does deserve a higher placement.
The Legacy came 3rd in the last comparison it was included in, and has not been changed since then. I wouldn't be surprised if thats their reason of not including the Legacy.
Why don't they just go ahead and compare an Accord to a E55 AMG and give it the crown as well.
Are you just saying that because you disagree with the comparison? :P
I just received my Feb. MT yesterday and IIRC the MAZDASPEED6 is compared to the Legacy GT. The 6 came in second to the GT but the summary stated something like "it is the best here but not better." Whatever that means. The Legacy was given points for being a better daily driver. I didn't read it yet but I'm guessing by those captions under the rankings that this wasn't an all-out performance comparo but rather a which one is more family friendly.
I haven't seen the C&D comparo but I've read the same issues about the SPEED6 being knocked for no leather, moonroof, and other creature comforts. ORDER IT THAT WAY THEN C&D!!!!!!
There is no way the Accord is the better car in that comparo. Even the base Mazda6 is much more pleasureable to drive than the Accord IMO. Someone needs to write C&D a letter about that poor comparo and send one to MT for naming the Civic COTY too. Edmunds just did a comparo between the so called COTY and the Mazda3. Guess which one trounced the other. :mad:
At the price, the Mazda lacked features the others had, thats a fair contention. The only option on the Accord was the NAV; even with this and many other features over the Mazda, it cost $1000 more (for leather, moonroof, power front seats, NAV). Thats quite significant.
It was stated in the article that former entrants were left out had they not changed significantly. So, the Legacy GT-L was not invited. (One can deduce the Spec-B was left out because of the 30K price cap).
In the M/T comparison, it was the Spec-B which was compared. I found it interesting that M/T though this, the ultimate Legacy more civilized and less high strung than the MZSpeed6, though I have not driven either.
The Mazda was clearly the better speed tool in the C/D comparison, but that doesnt make it the best vehicle.
~alpha