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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    You may want to wait for '08. New models of the Accord and 6 will be out, as well as the new '07 Altima being around for a year.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    OOPS!!! I should wait then. The Protege is now 4 years old and it will be 5 next year (and 6 if I wait one more year per your suggestion) - so, waiting won't hurt. I hope that 6 gets a better V6 (so that I can spend on a V6 without regrets), that Accord gets an inexpensive hybrid drivetrain (so that I can become environment friendly without digging deep into my own pockets), and that Altima makes safety features like curtain airbags, traction control, etc. standard (I want the car to be fun and safe at the same time - most Altimas in dealers lot now don't have all these).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    You should definitely wait a year if you are interested in these models. That way, should you decide you like the outgoing models better, you can likely get a screaming deal on them. Plus, you won't have first-year bugs to deal with in a brand new model of these cars.

    Just a thought. At very least, you'll save a lot of money on the current models if you wait until they are almost gone.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    Since the Mazda6 debuted for 2003 MY, a new Mazda6 is due for 2008 also.
  • lweisslweiss Posts: 342
    These are the 3 models that I am considering to replace my 1998 Volvo S-70, which refuses to die- and I would consider a Volvo S-60 just based on safety and engineering but not for the $32K+ that most are going for now (and I sure don't need a turbo, get enough speeding tickets without it!).

    The new Altima looks nice, but I am concerned about the CVT which is new for 2007. The Mazda6 is cute and priced right and the Honda Accord Special Edition is certainly a safe investment, if a little commonplace around here. All of those (in 4 cylinder version) can be had for under $23K nicely equipped.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    Consider that Nissan has a LOT of experience with CVTs, so while CVT is new to the Altima, it is not new technology.

    But there is something to be said for not getting a new design in its first year. Even reliable brands like Honda and Toyota have had their problems with first-year models (see 2003 Accord, 2006 Civic, 2007 Camry for example).
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    Ford is some some success with Fusion (although not nearly what those posting here would have you think judging from real sales numbers) not by being different, but being building a car comparable to the class leaders, Camry and Accord. There's nothing all that different about the Fusion, nothing that makes it stand out. The styling on the Camry is more aggressive, the Accord and Camry V6 engines are better, the Accord 4 cyl is better, the feature content is comparable. The price of the Fusion is a bit less. The quality of the materials and components is better in both Accord and Camry. I don't think you're going to be seeing a 440 watt stereo in a Fusion any time soon like my new Camry--which also had standard bluetooth (Fusion?).

    The Fusion is a fine effort, but saying its different is a misnomer. Sure its different, but its the same formula. And the Zephyr/MZK are aimed at a different market than the Fusion---like the ES and TL.

    Here's my question: If the Sonata is as good as Camry and Accord (I don't think it is, but for the sake of argument), AND its much cheaper--why can't the move more units? And that's not even accounting for fleet.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Ask yourself this question first, why are Camries and Accords sold in larger quanities than everyone else? I think you'd then arrive to the answer you are looking for :)

    Just for the record, I think the Sonata is as good as the the rest of of the midsizers, including, of course, the Camry and the Accord. It's a fine effort from Hyundai, now the company needs to continue rolling as the way it has, to win over more consumers as they are warmed up to the brand. Of course, as we all know, this won't happen overnight and will take some time, especially given the history it had.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Agreed...

    It took Camry and Accord 3 to even 4 generations of excellent products to establish as the benchmark of the class. I am not going to argue that the current Sonata is a decent alternative but since this is the first generation that Hyundai has success with the model (okay, second if you count the previous generation) I am still hesitate to put Sonata as equal to the Camcords. Same applied to the Fusion.
  • lweisslweiss Posts: 342
    I think that one of the reasons that Hyundai and Kia are not generating the big sales volumes is that they still have a somewhat immature dealer network. I live in a suburb of a big East Coast city and still only a few- nothing in comparison to all of the Ford and Chevy dealers. And Toyota and Honda and Nissan have also had many more years to build up dealers in different places. Kind of like chicken and egg- you need volume to invest in dealerships and you will get volume when you have lots of dealers- many people buy because they love the dealers that they have dealt with for many cars and the service they get. For me, the nearest Hyundai dealership is 10 miles from where I work, but there are Honda, Toyota, and Nissan dealers within 1 mile (important to me if there are service issues).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    Good point, and it helps explain too why so many Impalas and Malibus are sold. There's a Chevy dealer in almost every town in America.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    "Consider that Nissan has a LOT of experience with CVTs" - how do I know Nissan has experience with CVTs? Can you provide some details?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    For example, they have used a CVT in the Murano for a few years. The Versa/Tiida also has a CVT. There may be other Nissans around the world with CVTs, those are the two I know off the top of my head.

    Here's an article I found that does a good job explaining the CVT used in the Murano. Notice that it's from April 2003:

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030402.htm

    And here is some background on Nissan's history with CVTs and plans for the near future:

    http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2005/_STORY/050228-01.html
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    And I may add, some of the dealerships may seem smaller, and not so impressive. Some taking on the air of " we sell to those with no credit ' looking dealerships. NO, not saying all of the dealerships, but some. Just a thought. Early image of crappy cars did not help. Kinda rubbed-off on some dealer images. With better reliability scores, more dealerships, and hopefully larger ones, it is looking a bit more stable in USA. A whole lot better than Mitsu.

    Noticed the only Mitsubishi dealer which is close by, say 18 miles away, has a very small service dept. and has changed hands at least once in a couple years now. The next dealership is 135 miles or more away. The in town one is gone, as is another one 30 miles away. They dropped like flies about a couple years ago.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Here's my question: If the Sonata is as good as Camry and Accord (I don't think it is, but for the sake of argument), AND its much cheaper--why can't the move more units? And that's not even accounting for fleet."

    Brand/model loyalty is one big reason. People have been buying Camcords for years, and aren't going to change what's been working for them.

    Toyota could build the world's best fullsize truck with the next Tundra, but sales would still be less than a quarter of F series sales. Brand/model loyalty is a powerful thing, and a very coveted thing.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Rome wasn't built in one day. Korean cars are building momentum. Not sure they are taking away as many Honda, Toyotas, and other Japan makes, as they are American labels. That said, all the car manufacturers will be keeping an eye on Hyundai. With a much smaller number of dealerships, a once really tarnished image, and a limited number of offerings, I think they are doing OK.

    The car is sold as a value. It may be a value. I would do more research before declaring it another Accord or Camry, only less expensive. Maybe it is one of those just close enough, or better yet, is perfect for me type of cars. When you get right down to it, only the buyer needs to be satisfied. We can talk looks, fit and finish, engines and a whole lotta tech stuff, but it all boils down to if I pay $17K and bought this car, in this case the Sonata, was it MY best choice to fit what I need, and/or want. Personally, I am keeping an eye on reports of less gas mileage than stickered on the window, and reports of noises and such. My guess is that so far, though not perfect, it still is a good one to at the very least consider when shopping, if you like it. I would not buy a car which had no appeal to me, just because it is good work horse, unless just a commuter car, or something.
    -Loren
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    DIFFERENT, affordable and offer real value. Accord and Camry reign is going to come to an end, its already begun if you follow the internet. And listen to what consumers are saying and not the media. The media will come around in time.

    Silly statement..

    80,000+ buyers amonth choose the Camry and Accords. These are all media types?

    If Ford makes it through this year....

    The Accord and Camry are limited by production capacity. Nevertheless the Camry will only set a new record of 450,000 units this year - until the Subie plant comes on stream next year when its sales will jump to over 500,000 units annually. Yours is wishful thinking but looking at the monthly stats as noted above the two just keep steamrolling every other make.

    There are alot of good models out there but here is one incontrovertible fact. None of the other models will be able to pass either the Camry or the Accord for at least 5 years - if ever. And the reason........production capacity.

    You can continue to hope, but don't bet on any other taking the top slot ( except the Corolla ) for the foreseeable future. Next year you can expect 550,000 Camry's when the Subie line goes on stream; i.e. 20% increase in one year.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    We added a Hyundai store to our two Toyota stores, Chevy store and Acura store ( Honda store due next year ). Your comment about the perception of the management and sales staff about being 2nd class sellers from past problems was apparent. A whole new team was moved in from one of the Toyota stores to change the mentality there.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    Good information. I was worried because I knew of Saturn's miserable failure with CVT - Saturn dropped CVT from VUE because it could not build a CVT that would last 3 or more years without failing. A large number of unfortunate VUE CVT owners are still out there.

    Some are speculating that Nissan and GM would join hands soon - if that happens, I would not consider Altima anymore. I don't want to pay for GM engineering and quality (I have burned my hands once and I am very cautious now).
  • Rome wasn't built in one day

    Rome crumbled and died tho.

    Hyundai has improved their vehicles, but not their perception with American consumers yet. The majority of consumers buy with their hearts and minds, and Hyundai has a long way to go to make these people feel comfortable about buying their vehicles.

    The pipe smoker with the newspaper under his arm walking onto the lot may buy the Hyundai because of all the 'stats', but a car is more than a bundle of stats.

    Look at BMW. Their cars are rarely the best in any one category but their total package is widely accepted.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Look at BMW. Their cars are rarely the best in any one category but their total package is widely accepted.

    BMW has the unique driving dynamics which other manufactures find hard to replicate (look at Lexus). What does Hyundai have to make them stand out in the pack besides value?

    Camry - rock solid reliability, class leading V6 engine, class leading technology package.

    Accord - rock solid reliability, good balance between comfort and driving dynamics, class leading interior refinement, one of the best 4 bangers in the class.

    Not trying to bash Hyundai here but so far I find Sonata to be good a almost every characteristics but hardly great at any. To me, in order to become the benchmark like Camcords, the Sonata needs to become the class leader at at least one area.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    What does Hyundai have to make them stand out in the pack besides value?

    For purposes of this discussion, here are some ways in which Hyundai stands out:

    * Roomiest interior in the class (actually in the EPA "large car" class)
    * Best brakes (based on multiple comparos)
    * Only car in its class with standard ABS, traction control, electronic stability control, and active front head restraints on ALL trim lines.
    * Best warranty in its class (tied with Kia and Mitsubishi)
    * Quietest ride in its class (based on multiple comparos)

    By my count, that's more than one area.
  • lweisslweiss Posts: 342
    Well, some of us old guys remember when the first Honda Civics, Toyota Toyopets, and Datsun B-210s (not Nissan back then) started selling in North America- they were small, seemingly crude vehicles, and the Big 3 and Europeans did not take them seriously. But every year brought some product improvements, new models- they learned from their experiences and had the long view. But even the Asian manufacturers are not infallible- if you look at Mitsubichi, Isuzu, and Suzuki, they can have their problems too. After the Koreans will come the Chinese auto makers, just you wait.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Styling of the Camry more agressive!!??? than a Fusion?? you have got to be kidding me. I have parked a Fusion side by side to a Camry and in no way does the Camry look more agressive.. Fusion styling stands out of the crowd which makes it stand alone..

    "Camry/Accord V6's better" how? by .6 -.8 seconds 0-60 depending on what review you want to believe? The 3.0 Duratec equipped with VVT is a proven engine. It has been around now for almost 10 years and has proven to be a longterm reliable engine. What do you mean??

    Quality fit and finish in the Fusion/Milan have one awards for fit/finish and quality. Fusion/Milan are on par with the Camry/Accord. Its just that it has been so beaten into your head by the media you can't see it.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "You can continue to hope, but don't bet on any other taking the top slot ( except the Corolla ) for the foreseeable future. Next year you can expect 550,000 Camry's when the Subie line goes on stream; i.e. 20% increase in one year. "

    Wasn't the same said about Ford/GM in the late 80's. Noway is Honda/Toyota ever going to be #1 in sales of cars.. Hmmmm...Look where we are now..

    I just find it awfully funny how some are so closed minded and one dimensional about Honda/Toyota. Who is to say Hyundia won't take the lead in 5-10 years? Or even Ford or GM? Nissan?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes yes, the Fusion definitely looks more aggressive than the Camry...THE LAST GEN CAMRY THAT IS!! I don't know about you guys but the current gen Camry definitely turns my head whenever I saw them on the road. As for Fusion, not so much. Not trying to bash Fusion here but as for me (and I said many times) Fusion's style is nothing new. Front end reminds me of infiniti G, Rear end reminds me of my 94-97 Accord with Altima's Euro tail light. Not that it looks bad, as matter of fact, it looks good, one of the top lookers in this class. But aggressive? I don't even so.

    Not even going to start with the 3.0 Duratec. Ford, put the 3.5 V6 in there and you'll have a winner. I also disagree with Fusion's interior to be on par with Camcord's. Is it a nice interior? Yes. The best in class? NO. To me, Camry's interior is nothing to write home about (although it's light years ahead of last generation's) and same as the Fusion's. But Toyota used better quality plastics in the Camry than Ford does in Fusion (less hard plastic, which is really important). Accord's interior is just hands down the best. Better ergonomics, better material and better looking.

    Nobody's saying that Hyundai won't take the lead in 5-10 years but the thing is...they are not in the lead yet. So before they do, we can all stop pretending like they already did. When the time comes, all the so called Camcords loyalist will just shut up and accept the fact, trust me.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    Not trying to bash Hyundai here but so far I find Sonata to be good a almost every characteristics but hardly great at any. To me, in order to become the benchmark like Camcords, the Sonata needs to become the class leader at at least one area.

    I'd say it needs to be in more than one area, unless that one area is the one that an Accord owns - the overall feeling that you bought one damn good machine. Hyundai is trying to give their first born to get that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,746
    But in order to get that feeling... you have to buy one. I think that is Hyundai's main struggle with the Sonata--getting more people to check the car out and see that it is a damn good machine, not the Hyundai of yore.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The 2002-2006 Camry wasn't class leading in anything, except maybe in cushy ride. Engine power was way behind the Altima/Accord, mpg wasn't that good, exterior styling was boring as heck, interior was plain, handling was mushy, etc. Never won a single comparo (always about mid-pack).

    Yet, it was the best seller year after year. If it's a Camry, people will buy them.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I just find it awfully funny how some are so closed minded and one dimensional about Honda/Toyota. Who is to say Hyundia won't take the lead in 5-10 years? Or even Ford or GM? Nissan?

    I find it funny how many folks get so worked up over the hope that the company that makes their preferred car will sell more than some other brand. If anything, I am glad that not so many want to buy my favorite (Mazda6). I'd rather not see someone else driving the same car every 30 seconds.
This discussion has been closed.