Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

pat

We really need to get back to the cars as I mentioned just a little bit ago.

kdhspyder

Another important factor is that all manufacturing concerns with big initial investments in plant and equipment have BIG fixed cost factors in each vehicle. The only way to diminish the crushing weight of fixed costs is to increase volume and thereby spread out the effect.
very simplified ...
$1 Billion investment( 10 yr amortization = $100 Million annually )
1000 units sold = Fixed costs of $100,000 / vehicle
10,000 units sold = Fixed costs of $10,000 / vehicle
100,000 units sold = Fixed costs of $1,000 / vehicle

scape2

2001

scape2

Resale.. here we go again.. You paid more for your Accord.. at sale.. it better be worth more.. :shades:

andres3

Bought out the door for 25K, sold 50 months and 64K miles later for 13.25K. 53% resale value; not bad! Private Party sale!

m1miata

With a resale value so low, the Sonata currently may not be a value compared to Camry which is number one, or an Accord, or the Azera, which is predicted to hold more value than is the Sonata. Starting around $24K or less, when discounted, the Azera may be the best bet in the Hyundai line. What ya think? I did say MAY not be a value. Sonata in a four or six may still make a decent buy.

As for the Sonata being a family hauler as good as a Camry or Accord, it may fall into the category of best initial cost, with close performance overall. The same? You are right, it competes, but I am not too sure it wins. Perhaps the value is there and it is time for resale values to get better -- hard to say. When considering the V6, I am thinking the Azera should enter the equation. Then there are those without a family to haul around wanting a sporting or luxury car of value. The V6 Accord may win here for handling. The Azera has plenty of power and the Sonata is no slug. The so called appliance cars for basic transportation these days I think is moving a bit closer to style, and fun factor. In all fairness, these new cars, be it Accord to Sonata, now have more HP than say my old Mustang of first generation, better cornering ability, and yes a quiet, yet entertaining ride. I do it myself, calling these popular and more common cars an appliance. Must slap myself and snap into reality here, as these are todays' modern and sleek cars as where say the 60's Chevy or Fords. Looking at a sleek Honda Accord or G6 coupe, it reminds me that there still is some style these days, with great aerodynamics.

Problem I see in the Honda line is pricing. Seems like the V6 cars are pretty steeply priced. Is the Honda Accord four cylinder the quickest of the fours, other than an Altima? I believe I read that the Sonata four is not too quick.
-Loren

w9cw

Resale value is relatively poor on all Hyundai products, but no worse anymore than many domestic products. This will most likely continue until the marque's perception changes. Resale only affects those who sell or trade in a car - correct? If one keeps a car to the point where only salvage value - in tax terms - is applicable, then resale value is rather moot. It's always cheaper to "drive the wheels off a car" than trading periodically.

Residual value is also partially affected by the higher initial prices paid for an Accord or Camry, although the perceived quality and historical acceptance is most important. If one compares prices paid for comparably priced models, can one buy an 2007 Accord EX-L V6 for $20,574, including 6.25% sales tax? Doubtful, but one can buy a 2007 Sonata Limited Standard for that, and probably even less at other dealers. That figure was the "out the door" quote given to me.

And, what's the going price for a 2007 Accord LX or 2007 Camry LE 4-cylinder. A comparably equipped 2007 Sonata GLS 4-cylinder, again including 6.25% sales tax, can be had for $16,811.

Both the Accord and Camry will have much better resale values than either Sonatas, but after a given time duration, what will one's actual monetary loss be? Since the Sonata's prices are lower to begin with, the loss may be less than you think.

joe97

Sonata is really getting a ton of attention here, uh? Sales are fine. Did you guys notice in December 2005, HMA reported 20K units, almost twice as many as its normal units sold in the US? Still think it's P/R doing its spins? Actually, it is a planned strategy in its fleet division. Overall, Hyundai should continue to hold the #6 position in the world behind GM, Toyota, Ford, VW, DCX in volume.

And those saying Sonata's resale value hitting the toilet b/c of its high fleet figures - what about cars with low fleet figures? I have seen low fleet mainstream models (historically) having not-so-stellar resale values. Okay, let's say if the current Sonata does take a big time hit in depreciation, wouldn't the upfront savings allow for the recovery of the difference? The resale value for the Sonata is fine.

elroy5

Problem I see in the Honda line is pricing. Seems like the V6 cars are pretty steeply priced.

Sure the V6 version will cost you a couple thousand more, but I think it's worth it. I think the current Accord is more suited to the V6 engine, than the previous generation Accords were (larger).

pat

Once again, this discussion is about the CARS, not the failings of the manufacturers. Please go to the Automotive News & Views board to continue. Please remember how this topic imploded the last time we got into that. I'm sure none of us want that to happen again.

Your cooperation is much appreciated.

thegraduate

it better be worth more..

Don't worry, it is. :shades: My 4-cylinder is also more efficient than most in the class, so as the difference in resale goes down with age, the gas $ saved goes up.

I can't remember the name of the award it just won, but the Accord just got the award for highest resale value in its class. Someone know the specific award? I've seen it in the commercials with the "deflating cars" and the Honda is left standing. Funny.

m1miata

I thought the Camry was better in resale than the Accord, with the Civic placing higher than the Accord in resale. Yeah, all are great compared to most other cars for resale. Now the price. I may go look over those of the lot and see how much they are willing to discount the Hondas. The retail prices seem pretty much inflated. I did see an '06 with a couple thousand off, but the coupe was still around $23K with a four cylinder. At least the best I can recall it was a four. Since it is already a year old, I personally don't see a couple thousand off as any discount. I realize the four cylinder is pretty smooth and perhaps adequate power, but other brands sell for far less.

Wonder if a Sonata coupe is coming anytime soon?
-Loren

m1miata

Seems to me the Honda V6 is four or five thousand more than some of the competition. And is more costly than Toyotas.
-Loren

elroy5

The closer we get to September (when the 08 Accord comes out), the better the deals will get on the 07 models. The yearly Honda clearance is still a few months away though.

Seems to me the Honda V6 is four or five thousand more than some of the competition. And is more costly than Toyotas.

You get what you pay for, and I doubt the Accord V6 is more than a Camry V6.

thegraduate

Accords are currently available at $750 below invoice because of an incentive to the dealers.

I'll use top-line models, as similarly equipped as I know how to make them to the EX-V6 Accord Sedan, Automatic:

Honda Accord EX-V6

MSRP - $27,400

Invoice - $24,683

TMV - is $25,689*
.
.
.
Toyota Camry XLE V6 w/ VSC, Heated Seats, floor mats

MSRP - $29,929,

Invoice - $27,025

TMV - $29,824*

The Camry is a little better equipped (nicer Audio system w/Bluetooth, manual rear-sunshade, and auto-day/night mirror), and has more power (268 hp vs. 244 hp in Accord)but costs a good deal more than the Accord, not the other way around.
.
.
.
I did the Ford Fusion SEL V6, and added Traction Control, ABS, Leather, Heated Seats, Moonroof, 6-CD Changer, and Daytime Running Lamps to line it up as best I could with the Accord.

Fusion SEL V6

MSRP - $25,875

Invoice - $23,720

TMV - $24,180*

For those who want Stability Control, the Fusion does not offer it. It does however offer All-Wheel Drive. Here are the numbers for the AWD Fusion, equipped identically to the FWD one listed above.

Ford Fusion SEL-V6 AWD

MSRP - $27,630

Invoice - $25,303

TMV - $25,715*

Are there more incentives that I'm not aware of? I have $750 Dealer rebate for Accord and $1,000 Customer Cash for Fusion.

*after Destination charges and incentives.

++All info from Edmunds.com++

kwonc71

"I owned both (V6 versions) and drive both the same way (aggressive, floor the gas pedal, over 85mph on the highway whenever possible)."

"2006 Sonata - 16 to 18 mpg on average. Very poor."

You worry about MPG and race the car whenever you can :confuse:
A Motorcycle will be a better choice for that, not a 3500LB sedan.

I drive my 06 LX Sonata just like you drive yours, and still get 23-24MPG which is better than my 1994 Honda Accord 2.2L used get. Somehow,after 18,000 miles of abusing, mine don't have problems like your Sonata has either.......I don't know what to tell you man.

plekto

The Accord VP, which shares the same body, engine, transmission, brakes.... as the upper-trim models is under $17K.(and a hell of a deal I might add).

As for reliability, I consider 200K+ to be reliable, since even a piece of junk Daewoo/Aveo can do 100K these days.

backy

Also, right now Honda is running some attractive lease specials on Accords, e.g. Accord SE-V6 for $209/mo. with about $1000 cap reduction for 36 months. That's an excellent value IMO, considering it's in the same range as leases on some competitor's I4 sedans. AND also the same cost as the Accord SE-I4! That should tell us something about how much buyers today value fuel economy over power--seems like Honda is having a little trouble moving those V6s if they have to offer them at the same lease deal as the I4.

w9cw

I agree the Accord VP is a good deal, but it does omit some typical amenities that other trims in this class offer. And, why Honda doesn't offer VSC across all trim lines as standard equipment is baffling.

Yes, I expect more than 250+K out of any car that I buy. Frankly, I can't wear out my old '85 classic SAAB 900 - it's like the Energizer bunny! At the rate it just keeps going, maybe I will also reach 1 Million miles, and get a new one free of charge from SAAB like the fellow did at the Detroit auto show! BTW . . . the Lambda V6 from Hyundai is designed with a minimum service life of 300K.

100K miles used to be the milestone that every car manufacturer shot for before major problems were expected; now, any car, with prudent preventive maintenance can easily reach that figure.

booyahcramer

Yes, I expect more than 250+K out of any car that I buy.

OK - but I doubt many people want to keep their cars that long. Most don't. They want to see something new after a while. Like me. I keep em 4-5 years, and by then I want a new look going. I don't want to see the same ole sitting in my garage.

That's what's so attractive about Accords. You get out of them so easy without taking a trade-in bath. Makes these great leases available because of Accord's high resale value and overall appeal.

scape2

You can quote prices you find on the internet but these still are not real world prices.. I purchased my 06 Fusion SEL, with leather, sunroof, heated seats, the works for $23,000.. visit other chat rooms and folks are now getting this same car for as low as $22,500.. So you really have to wonder about these prices all car foums give the public. Its no secret however that a like optioned Accord/Camry will cost you thousands more than a Fusion/Sonata/G6/Altima.. It is only a matter of time for the public to start to question why?

scape2

There are some that play the rental card in this forum. Why then arethere about 50+ Camry's sitting on the Hertz rental lot on my way to work? :confuse:

scape2

I once posted in this forum about a co-worker who chose a Chevrolet Imapala SS over a new Camry XLE V6. He has now owned the car for about 4 months now. Yesterday he asked me to come to the south parking lot to see it again. His Impala is the blue color. He had put on some sharp wheels and tires, tinted all the windows. I told him he need to take pictures and put it on this site. The car is very sharp looking and in my opinion puts any Camry to shame.

captain2

the gas $ saved goes up
sure it does, but maybe not as much as you think - assuming that you drive quite a bit (20k/yr) and do a portion of that on the highway - your 4 banger might realistically be expected to get 30mpg overall, the V6 26mpg. The 4 cyl. needs 666 gallons of gas, the V6 768, a savings of 100 gallons, $300.00, or $25/month. Drive less,as most folks do, then the savings are less. And while any Accord will command premium resale values you will also get a portion of that V6 premium back at trade-in time as well.
IMO, of course, while the Accord would be the only car in this group that I would even consider with a 4 cylinder, over 4 years I spend the extra $2200.00 ($45.00/month) - $300.00 x4 + $1000.00 (the initial cost premium less the higher resale - and enjoy that wonderfully smooth and powerful V6.

goodegg

Its no secret however that a like optioned Accord/Camry will cost you thousands more than a Fusion/Sonata/G6/Altima.. It is only a matter of time for the public to start to question why?

The why is apparent to the thousands of people every year that buy Camcords. Don't worry about it.

Most people don't want a Ford. Look at the company's demise. Will soon drop to the #4 automaker from #2. Ouch.

neteng101

I'm not complaining... got the SE-V6 on a great lease deal. I can decide when the time comes to move up to either the 8th gen Accord or maybe the next TSX... if the use the Sports4 concept styling for the TSX, it will be a much sharper looking car than the current one. Or maybe buyout at the end of the lease and keep it another 3 years and then trade it in... I doubt if we're going to get another V6 Honda at the SE-V6 prices for a couple of years once the new models come out.

And I'd rather do a fully loaded car next - with nav, leather, V6 I see the Accords pushing 30k like the Camrys are now. Decisions, decisions... I'm just watching to see what the next Accord and TSX shape up to be in production form now. :shades:

A Fusion IMO would be a great value buy if they could match the pricing of Sonatas. Yet even the Sonata has available ESC which no Fusion offers.

explorerx4

a fusion se awd has an msrp of about 23,500.

backy

Fulans are close to advertised Sonata prices in my area, both for purchase and lease, but as you noted, the Sonata comes with some standard features that the Fusion and Milan don't have, such as ESC and (compared to the Fusion) ABS. OTOH, the Milan comes pretty well equipped even in base form, e.g. ABS, six airbags, and power seat.

lilengineerboy

Will soon drop to the #4 automaker from #2. Ouch.

I believe it was once said that "size doesn't mater." I think in this case, PROFITABILITY matters. BMW isn't even on the list for the top X manufactuers, yet they seem pretty well respected and holy cow, they are profitable.

neteng101

Interesting, I did a quick scan based on Edmunds TCO figures and it seems, the Accord is cheapest to insure, followed by the Camry, then the Fusion, and the Sonata costs the most to insure.

andres3

Completely wrong... I'd wager there isn't a Dodge car out there (don't count that trucks) that can reach 100K miles without seriously dipping into thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs.

goodegg

BMW isn't even on the list for the top X manufactuers

Yea but BMW was never the #1 or #2 auto manufacturer in the US. They're not hemorrhaging market share or assets right now either.

Why doesn't Ford do something different in the market instead of trying to take on the CamCords and Corrolvics?
Go littler, like they do overseas.

I don't think the Fusion is the answer.

andres3

Says it has cheap feeling and looking interior.

Case closed.

andres3

My wife's 05 Civic gets raped by the insurance companies, and costs more for her insurance than on my newer and more expensive and much faster sportback.

Why is that? Too many racers crashing? Too many theives stealing? Her driving record is perfection just like mine.

andres3

People pay more for Camcords because they cost less to run, less to maintain, and less to repair over the years. They also sell for more when you get tired of it. Plus, you get a more luxurious interior, greater power, and less headaches.

explorerx4

you really have to take the 'tco' numbers with a grain of salt.
it lists maintenance on an '04 escape limited at over $1800 in year 2.
insurance doesn't line up either. i have high limits and 500 deductible. the reason i looked it was when i was looking into buying one, one of the years had a number over 2400!
i just went to the maintenance schedule for 15-30k. even at $60 for the 18,21,24,27 services, plus the $250 30k service, you still total about $500.
tco is a tool, but i wouldn't take it as gospel.

bhmr59

Amen.

I looked at the TCO months ago, so I don't remember the numbers, but they were way out of wack regarding taxes and insurance for my area. Plus the depreciation was figured based upon the MSRP, not the street price.

joe97

I recall the last time I glanced the TCO area, I compared Camry, Accord, and Sonata - all three came within dollars of each other over a 5 year of estimated total cost. Actually, I believe the Sonata came ahead slightly - take that with however you'd like to interpret.

Anyway, insurance itself can be tricky, while the type of car serves as of factor, your driving style, history and others maybe more important to consider...not included with TCO, of course

explorerx4

i can see the insurance being off(lots of variation due to age/limits, etc...), but maintenance should be close.
i guess edmunds now has a little project line up the numbers in tco and tips & advice/maintenance.
i just suggested for them how to do that in 'forums software'.

bhmr59

I agree. But the taxes were also off quite a bit as I recall. In CT our cars are taxed by the town as "property" and the value goes down from one year to the next. However, each town has a different tax rate and most tax rates change (go up ) each year. The amount of increase, from town to town, is not uniform.

It's probably impossible for Edmund's to keep up to date on CT car taxes.

Under a "changes I'd like to see" heading, like Edmund's has for cars, I'd like to eliminate the tax, insurance and licensing fees. Plus MSRP doesn't appear to be based on the street price of a car. I fianced $10,826 of an OTD price of $17,826. How meaningful is the finance charge compared to someone who financed more or less than I did?

Not faulting Edmund's, but these are all general averages and need to be taken with a grain of salt as you said.

jimmy81

I recall the last time I glanced the TCO area, I compared Camry, Accord, and Sonata - all three came within dollars of each other over a 5 year of estimated total cost. Actually, I believe the Sonata came ahead slightly - take that with however you'd like to interpret

How can Edmonds predict Sonata's resale value 5 years after one buys one when its a new model? That's ridiculous considering 50% of Sonata sales are to car rental agencies.

Plus some cars you're putting up with for 5 years and others you're enjoying. Accords satisy the latter. I don't care which ones are the former.

imidazol97

Are unrealistic IMHO. The move to the lowest possible recommended oil change and other service intervals in the last decade and more has been driven by the manufacturers trying to manipulate the cost to own figures for the small number of individuals using them and more for the fleets and rentals using them to estimate costs.

If I can't afford the difference between one car over another to maintaine for 10 years, I should not be buying a new car.

Car's values years into the future can't be predicted with certainty as High or Low because of changes in the environment. Remember the high value placed on Enron stock...

w9cw

andres3 wrote: "Completely wrong... I'd wager there isn't a Dodge car out there (don't count that trucks) that can reach 100K miles without seriously dipping into thousands and thousands of dollars in repairs."

I don't have any experience with Dodge cars, midsize or otherwise, but I do have experience with their minivans. In 1994, I bought a new Grand Caravan ES with the 3.3L V6 - which was used in some of their cars (I believe). My very first mechanical problem developed after 12 1/2 years and 161,000 miles of ownership. Not bad, really, would you think? No other parts were ever replaced, including the water pump, alternator, etc. In fact, at that age and mileage, it was also on its original stainless steel exhaust system.

I firmly believe with the vast majority of today's cars, if one truly takes care of the car in accordance with the owner's manual severe service schedule, the car will provide long, and lasting, service.

explorerx4

ct. 169 towns and each one has their own mil rate!
maybe they could add loan value into equation there somewhere.
i know edmunds is always looking to improve their tools.

imidazol97

Were those the era where many transmission failed? You were very successful in maintenance if that's the case. A coworker had two replacements under extended warranty purchased. IIRC the problem was aggravated by running hot i.e. in higher gear at low engine speed which didn't move fluid around very well for cooling.

explorerx4

my mother drove a '64 dodge dart(used), '74 dart new, '84 lebaron(used), 91 lebaron(used). now drives '03 malibu.
i hated driving some of those cars, but none of them ever had any major problems.

thegraduate

First of all, you do make solid points.

But for me, 166 hp is more than enough. Also, I put about 25k a year on the road (though at the moment it is split pretty evenly between my 06 and my 96). Secondly, I'm a college student, so $25 a month is a bigger deal to me than some with better incomes. I certainly understand, though, the merits of the V6 if you make, say, $60,000 a year vs. working part time and in college.

Oh, and, I got a certain amount to spend, and it could have been an SE V6 Fusion, a Sonata V6, or an Accord I4. I chose the I4 Accord because it was just that good.

thegraduate

a fusion se awd has an msrp of about 23,500.

I was comparing like-optioned cars in the post to which you replied. An SE Fusion is not even close to an EX-V6 Accord in terms of equipment. Nor is a standard-equipment SEL Fusion. You must add options to match it, which I did.

An SE-V6 Accord with VSA has an MSRP of $23,550. The Fusion AWD starts at over $24,000 according to Ford's website.

I think what one of our dear members (not necessarily you, explorerx4) forgets is that someone's real-world price in the south is not always the same in the Northwest, Northeast, etc...

I remember when the boards were full of $24k EX-V6 Accord at last year's 2006 clearance, and he swore nobody could go cheaper than $25,888. Where he/she lived, that may have been true. For many of us, it simply wasn't.

explorerx4

grad, the 'i was born a poor ***** child' (credits to steve martin) routine isn't going to work.
you are in college, you work part time, and you have 2 cars. it is not going to add up for most people.
you could save a lot more than $25 a month if you could find a way to drive less than 25k per year.
just some friendly advice from a guy who got the senior citizen discount at the grocery store last week.

explorerx4

you are probably right, i put in my local zip code.