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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • autonomousautonomous Posts: 1,769
    I'm 19, no wife, no kids, and since its summer no job and no school. But I love cars.

    And you have a great future writing about them! Thanks for your well-reasoned postings.
    :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    So you believe that just because many of the standard features of the Sonata are safety-related and you and others have "already given credit for" them, we should igonore thost important features when comparing these cars?

    Good catch on the ABS, yes, that is standard on CamCords--I thought it was still optional on the low-end Camrys. However, you are wrong that most of these features are standard on the Camry. Here are the features standard on all Sonatas but not standard (or even available) on all Camrys:

    * Shiftronic manumatic (on all automatic transmission cars)
    * Electronic Stability Control
    * Traction control
    * 4-wheel disc brakes
    * minimum 16" wheels
    * front-seat side airbags
    * side curtain airbags
    * front seat active headrests
    * leather-wrapped steering wheel and (on automatic tranny cars) shift knob
    * heated mirrors
    * MP3 audio system
    * jeweled projector-lens headlamps
    * 8-way adjustable driver's seat (with dual-arc height adjuster)
    * Trip computer
    * Illuminated vanity mirrors
    * Remote locking and trunk release
    * Anti-theft alarm
    * 5-year, 60k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty
    * 10-year, 100k mile powertrain warranty
  • janeencjaneenc Posts: 29
    I always appreciate your post. I would like to mention to some of the Sonata haters that some of my favorite features aren't the safety features(although they give me piece of mind). I like the standard telescopic steering wheel, the sliding arm rest,the trunk remote,the auto-dimming mirror and the auto sensing air conditioner!These features on my LX don't have to be added to the bottom line. :P My OTD price was well below the current competition that I have "owned" in the past. Most of the negative comments that are in this forum come from people who have never even been inside a Hyundai dealership let alone behind the wheel of the product they continue to slam.
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Posts: 690
    I just returned from a vacation where my wife and I rented an early-2005 Hyundai Sonata V6 (we both normally drive VWs) - and I came away impressed - especially since Hyundai was a relative newcomer to the U.S. market around 10 years ago. The car was solidly put together (even the doors closed with a solid thunk - unlike the 2005 Ford Taurus we saw at the New York Auto Show - can you say, shake, rattle and roll?), the handling was good, and the car was relatively stabile at highway speeds around 70-80 mph. It was also roomy and comfortable as well. I told my wife, if this car is any indication, the 2006 model will be quite a success.

    Based on this drive - the Big Three better watch their backs, because even in the rental car market (much less the passenger car market), they are not safe. If they rest too comfortably on their rental-car laurels, Hyundai (and like competitors) will wind up pulling the rug out from under them (as well as eating their lunch) in short order... :shades:
  • will think the Hyundai is a great bargain. Some people will think that in and of itself make it a better car than the competition. I happen to think that the Accord is worth the $1500 more. So sue me. I value the Accord's front and rear double wishbone suspension, slick 5-speed manual, safety rating, reliability, etc. The Hyundai isn't a bad car and it's a good effort compared to the domestic competition. However, it has a bit to go before it will completely knock the socks off of "most" CamCord owners. Even those looking at an Altima or a Mazda6 would be hard-pressed to pick the Sonata because that buyer is looking on the sporty side of the spectrum. The Sonata is not sporty.

    You can think of it like this ... You have house "A" which was built buy a relatively new builder. It has great features (hardwoods, cathedral ceilings, tile bathrooms, etc) and it's a great price. House "B" is just as nice but a little more expensive. The difference is house "B" was built by a top-rated, BBB approved, contractor whereas house "A" was built by Billy Bob who lives down the street. From personal experience house "B" is the better buy even if it is more expensive.
  • "It is statistically true that long term dependability correlates to initial quality. "

    I respectfully, but strongly disagree. This just isn't true,there is no correlation. In some case yes good initial quality also has good long term relablity.but there is no correlation. This is cognativie dissonance at its best!

    This is akin to going back 6 months in the stock market and being able to predict todays prices exactly, pretty easy to do. Now try going forward 6 months, not quite as easy :(\

    Good Luck.

    P.S. Take a look at J.D. Powers initial quality and Consumer reports long term reliability.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Posts: 132
    You state the nub of the arguement...if you want proven reliability and quality coupled with the highest resale value, then the Honda/Toyota autos lead the pack. if you are just looking for cheap transportation of still-questionable reliability and do not care about resale value, then maybe a Chevy, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, or Hyundai is for you. Depends upon how much money you want to spend for a reliable quality auto that will still be worth something when you trade it in. How many Hyundai owners continue to buy Hyundai...I'll bet the answer is very low.

    My Honda dealer's courtesy car is a 199? minivan with 170,000 miles. Still runs great, quiet and peppy...hmmm, wonder how it compares to a Hyundai with that many miles...seeing is believing.

    Check your money belt, test drive the cars and make your choice.

    Oh yes, auto mags agree that they use the Honda Civic as the benchmark auto to compare others to. To me trying to compare the Hyundai Sonata to a Honda Accord will only happen after about 100,000 miles. The Sonata has only half the welds the Accord does...hmmm, where is Hyundai cutting corners???

    Hyundai has 20 years of sub-standard autos to overcome...they may make it...the jury is still out!
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    If the Accord is worth the $1500 more, the Accord is worth more in the long run because of its high resale value. Which is a great advantage for people who tend to keep their cars for 3-5 years.

    Backy: Some of the features you posted are not standard on all models
    here is what the base model (GL) has:
    2.4-liter, DOHC, 4-cylinder engine
    - 5-speed manual transmission
    - Dual front airbags, front side-impact airbags and roof-mounted
    side-curtain airbags
    - Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)
    - Electronic Stability Control (ESC) with Traction Control System (TCS)
    - Front seat active head restraints
    - 16” steel wheels with Michelin® tires
    - Tilt, leather-wrapped steering wheel
    - Leather-wrapped shift knob (A/T only)
    - 4-wheel disc brakes
    - Remote keyless entry system with alarm
    - Power windows, locks and heated mirrors
    - AM/FM/CD/MP3 Audio System
    - Air conditioning
    - Cruise control
    - Cabin air-filtration system

    *People dont care about safety features. The Camry is still selling well, and it doesn't have side curtain airbags, traction control and esc standard on any models. It doesn't see to be a popular option people put in their Camry's.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    How many Hyundai owners continue to buy Hyundai...I'll bet the answer is very low.

    Actually, the opposite is true. I don't remember exactly what magazine it was (some auto business mag) but they reported that Hyundai actually has a very high retention rate on a par with or better than Honda and Toyota. That is another reason that many other manufacturers are taking Hyundai very seriously. Once you go Hyundai, you stay Hyundai. ;)

    Once I find the link to the article in question I will post it. :shades:

    Found it!

    Hyundai Retention Rate

    Hyundai Ranked #4 in Customer Retention by J.D. Power and Associates

    FOUNTAIN VALLEY, Calif., Dec. 20, 2004 -- In customer retention, the measurement of what percentage of vehicle owners purchase the same brand again, Hyundai vehicles were ranked by those surveyed as fourth in a recent study.

    According to the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Retention study, the overall industry average for customer retention was 48.4 percent but Hyundai was able to retain 57.6 percent of its current owners in 2004 and was one of only 10 brands that were able to exceed the industry average in this second year of the J.D. Power and Associates study.

    Among non-luxury brands, Hyundai finished in the top three. Hyundai also increased its customer retention rate from 54 percent in 2003 up to 57.6 percent in 2004.

    In addition to measuring customer retention rates, the study also analyzes the reasons consumer defect from the brand they own and are captured by other brands when they purchase a new vehicle. An important factor in defection is based on owners' experiences with previous vehicles. Owners often defect from their brand because they had problems with long-term durability, high maintenance costs or poor experiences with dealer service.

    Conversely, brands are often able to capture new customers with attractive rebates and incentive offers, better vehicle styling, more cargo capacity, high resale value and better fuel economy.

    "We are proud that Hyundai owners show their brand loyalty by choosing to buy another Hyundai vehicle nearly 60 percent of the time," said Bob Cosmai, president and CEO of Hyundai Motor America. "Once they experience the styling, comfort and durability of Hyundai vehicles, customers elect to buy another Hyundai. It is important to earn the respect of our customers and we are excited that our vehicles and our dealers are doing just that," he added.

    The J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Retention Study is based on responses from more than 171,000 new vehicle buyers and lessees, of which 103,088 replaced a vehicle that was originally purchased new.

    Here's a link to the JD Powers report for all the details. Toyota was #1 in this study, but Hyundai beat out Honda!

    JD Powers report--pdf format

    Enjoy! It's always nice to have data to back up one's comments! :blush:
  • rgyiprgyip Posts: 43
    Your first argument is not supported at all, and quantified without research.

    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/12/20/307447.html

    "According to the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Customer Retention study, the overall industry average for customer retention was 48.4 percent but Hyundai was able to retain 57.6 percent of its current owners in 2004 and was one of only 10 brands that were able to exceed the industry average in this second year of the J.D. Power and Associates study."

    Your "number or welds" argument also show no statistical basis. Per post #1394 in the Hyundai Sonata 2006+, I will reiterate what codata99 wrote in that post.

    "Actually the Sonata is the current benchmark in midsize class.

    Honda and Toyota have a lot of catching up to do to barely match the overall performance and refinement.
    The Sonata has 6,200 body welds, about TWO THOUSAND more than the Camry's(4,300).
    How about paint? Matching the quality of the 18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat is simply out of the question. They don't have the Rho-dip facility. Only one other plant in N. America has one."

    backy, "Hyundai Sonata 2006+" #1375, 15 Jul 2005 12:53 pm

    Based on your argument that quality is based on the number of welds, then at least Toyota (and probably Honda),will have some catching up to do.

    Once again, another argument that takes one person's experience, and generalizes it to being fact.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    I posted this earlier:
    It's too technical. I highly doubt many consumers will be persuaded to purchase a sonata simply because it has more body welds, uses a higher quality paint from an "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat". While these impressive features may cause a select group automotive engineers and car fanatics to salivate, the average consumer is more concerned with the fundamentals. I highly doubt that more body welds which do admittedly give the car more body rigidity be noticed by the average consumer. As for the "18-pass rotary-dip electro-coat" giving the sonata a sheen that is noticeably superior, are you kidding me? However, if one can show that all the above innovations are noticed by the average consumer then I will be the first to concede my point. As for the factory being a benchmark, while I have no doubt that it is true, will hardly be a compelling selling point for consumers. Should I really care that my accord took more workers to build? Where I feel the sonata has failed, despite having some new technical innovations, isn't clearly differentiating itself from its competitors. For a supposedly next-generation car the sonata offers precious little more (if at all) in the way of vehicle performance, safety, features and amenities. Having read many of the reviews and test driven the new sonata there's nothing to convince me that the sonata is a next-generation vehicle that is head and shoulders above industry standards like the camry and accord. It has reasonably strong performance, is well equipped at all levels and is quite spacious and comfortable. However, the same can be said of both the accord and camry (well the camry falls slightly short in performance). In such a competitive market the sonata failed to establish itself as the new class leader. It is merely a worthy competitor. The one key selling point of the sonata, which I suspect hyundai supporters will bring up is its excellent price. While this may entice a few buyers away who would otherwise have chosen the accord or camry, hyundai has just reinforced its image as a lower-cost alternative to the accord or camry. What the sonata needed to do was to market itself as not only a lower cost vehicle but as the new class leader which as added bonus also happened to have a lower price. I find it disappointing that hyundai is merely content to position itself as being on par with the camry and accord albeit at a lower price. Brand loyalty is a definite factor for many consumers in purchasing a new car and Hyundai has failed to do enough with its sonata to convince many accord and camry loyalists to make the switch. Toyota and Honda are still percieved to make better cars even though this may no longer be true. The 06 sonata needed to be a killer breakout vehicle that would leave no doubt in any consumer's mind of its superiority. The 06 sonata is not this car. Many people find the interior design to be bland, and exterior to be handsome but conservative. As well, its mileage is not very impressive. These points have been done to death and I apologize for rehashing them but the fact that these points are brought up at all indicates that the sonata is not the revolutionary vehicle it so needed to be. Some might think that I have unreasonable expectations of the sonata. But since Hyundai is still perceived to make inferior vehicles to toyota and honda (which I disagree with, they do make fine vehicles), the sonata needed to be the car equivalent of the second coming of christ (just kidding, well sort of ). What I fear may happen is when the 07 camry and 08 accord redesigns come out, the sonata may get left behind in the shuffle. Unfortunately the sonata, while a fine vehicle came out a little too late. Worthy competitor. Certainly. Lower priced but equally well equipped vehicle. Most assuredly. New class leader and industry benchmark. Hardly.
  • rgyiprgyip Posts: 43
    I agree with your post to a certain extent, that the average consumer doesn't care about the techical jargon.

    However, the problem with the this whole thread's argument is that one discredit's the Sonata because the Sonata doesn't have XXX from the Camry, or XXX from the Accord. No one looks at that XXX from the Accord doesn't have this from the Sonata or Camry, and likewise no one looks how the Camry doesn't have XXX from the Accord or Sonata. This whole argument is stupid...

    The CAMCORD is not A CAR, and this thread should not treat it as such. There is NO car in any single class that I know of, that is better in EVERY WAY than ANY other car within ITS CLASS.

    THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A BENCHMARK CAR. TOO MUCH PERSONAL PREFERENCE INFLUENCES ONE'S "BEST" CAR.

    Sure, there are small things that the Sonata doesn't have yet that the current Camry or Accord might have, but it works both ways. But as a whole, you can't argue that the Sonata does many things right for the amount of money it asks for. You just have to decide whether or not the Sonata "package" is good enough for you. If not, get an Accord or Camry, etc., or wait for the NG Camry or Accord and see if they offer the right package to you.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    People still think that the 06 sonata is like the Pontiac G6 or Ford Five hundred. Even though those kinds of cars won JD POwer for intial plan quality , people know that those cars are still not great cars and rich in quality.

    Hyundai actually has both aspects packed down. So the paint job process will translate to the paint job of the car(best paint job in its class), so will the wieldings(thump sound when the car closes for example"). The camcords seriously don't compared to the extra "nutbolt tightened" the sonata offers at this current time. Don't be suprised even when the next generation will not match the number of weildings and painting passes again.

    Ctalk said, the normal consumer does not care about the pain quality or extra weild quality, but a true fanatic knows about that. I guess then what you mean is that hyundai sonata's are bought by true drivers and people who know about cars better, than i really do enjoy that niche.

    extra work does pay off in the end
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    We are doing this again? yuk.
    I believe some people in this forum (I won't say who) credit Sonata too much. It
    still needs to prove certain things.
    At the same time, other people seem unable to get over the possibility that
    Hyundai could surpass the Japanese. Everything that goes up comes down
    eventually. The billion dollar question is when not if.
    The reality is probably somewhere in between.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    I hear Kia is going to build a production line in MS.
    Hmmm... US-made Optimas, hey?
    image
    I can't read the subtitle, but that's governer of Mississipi with chairman of
    Hyundai-Kia group. He's trying out the new Sedona in Korea. I just thought the
    pic. was hilarious. :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    Ummm... ok, I'll bite. What do you find so hilarious about the picture?
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Hawwwwwwwwwwwwwww !!!!!!!! the good people of Mississippi need some good paying manufacturing jobs. Although I think quality might not be stellar in the beginning. Same goes for Alabama built Sonata. It is a known fact that when a brand new factory is built in an area with relatively few skilled labor, quality sometimes suffer. A good example would be the Nissan Titan and Armada.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    I don't get it.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    Backy: Some of the features you posted are not standard on all models
    here is what the base model (GL) has
    :

    Which information that I posted is incorrect? I got it from Hyundai's own web site. Your list looks to me to be just a subset of the list I posted, with a few items left off. If those other items are in fact not on the Sonata GL, please inform us (and Hyundai's marketing people, so they can correct the web site).

    As for why more people don't buy side curtain airbags, traction control, and ESC on their Camrys, maybe it has to do with the price of Camrys with those options and also the limited availability of Camrys with those options, as opposed to people not wanting those features? If they are so unpopular, why did Honda and Hyundai decide make side curtain airbags standard across all their cars no later than '06? And why does Toyota make ESC standard on most of their vehicles (but not the Camry)?
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Thanx for biting, i can't stand those nonsense arguements :P
    I just think it's really funny how this huge white dude sitting in a Kia minivan,
    of all things, dressed up in his best attire. Hyundai chairman is a certified
    billionaire. He's no Richard Bronson either. He's one of the typical hermit
    tycoons in Korea.
    The perfect PR smile just cracks me up. :P

    Anyways, I think building a new production line for Kia is yet another big
    commitment from this group. Kia has even bigger hurdles than Hyundai right
    now. I have a sneaking suspicion that they're gonna introduce pickup trucks
    pretty soon.

    If the new Optima looks great and drives well enough, I'll really consider it.
    US-made Optima makes things even sweeter. (Of course, it won't happen
    any time soon.)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    Ten minutes in the Intolerance Closet for you.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Two things for you. These have been repeated over and over in forums.
    1. Highest Automation rate anywhere. Most workers don't even touch the car.
    They press buttons. (with a touch of exaggeration)
    2. Longest pre-production problem-solving period in recent auto history. PLUS they
    had more than 6 months in Korea to work out their problems.

    Another thing that should not be overlooked is the fact that Hyundai watches and
    studies everyone. Benchmark, benchmark, benchmark! Advantage for late-comers.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Posts: 647
    Based on some of the early reviews, it looks as though the all new 06' Passat will be another benchmark design.
    Now if they can improve the reliability, VW will have a world class car.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=106641
  • rgyiprgyip Posts: 43
    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/0505_volkswagen_passat/

    Another review on the new Passat.

    The writer doesn't seem to like the ride. Hard to say, since his description is wordy and somewhat vague (to me.)

    "But despite the reengineered lightweight suspension (it shed 29 pounds), the new Passat shines only on glass-smooth pavement. While it soaks up long-amplitude bumps with aplomb, the brittle low-speed ride and the angry response to sharp-edged potholes are nothing to brag about. Even on standard tires (run-flats are optional), the ride is irritated by random small arguments between the springs and the dampers. Adding to the confusion is a certain amount of lateral and longitudinal waywardness. The ho-hum directional stability at high speed is another negative."

    I don't know how much credit I would give the writer in this case. In the beginning of the article, he says the new Jetta looks bad and the new Passats looks good. To me, the new Passat just looks like the new Jetta but stretched out.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,748
    Aren't the Jetta and Passat based on the same platform? I noticed a similar problem (great on smooth roads, not so great on roads with even small bumps e.g. tar strips) on the New Jetta.
  • rgyiprgyip Posts: 43
    Yep, the new Passat is based off a stretched Jetta/Golf platform.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    Thanks you :)

    Cars have been my passion since the age of five.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I knew you would name the safety features. But my question was simple:

    Name features I had NOT named. Every safety feature you stated I had already given the Sonata credit for. That was my point :)

    Reading is well...you know. :P (Joking)
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    8-way power seats are not standard on all models.
    If they are so unpopular, why did Honda and Hyundai decide make side curtain airbags standard across all their cars no later than '06? And why does Toyota make ESC standard on most of their vehicles (but not the Camry)?

    These features (ESC, traction control, side curtain airbags) is not important to the average consumer. Camry is still selling well without those features. Honda and Hyundai put these features in to make their cars more appealing. And Toyota doesn't make it standard on most of their vehicles...?
This discussion has been closed.