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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • I've repeatedly detailed my GM experiences, I'm not going to go all into it again, but let me say clearly: the initial quality of ALL our GM cars was very good. The 1 year quality was good in 4/5 of them. The two year quality was good in 3/5 of them. The three year quality was good in 2/5 of them. Four quality--well, only got there on 2 of them, lets call it 1/2. And not one of them went over 48k in that span.

    Lesson is that initial quality doesn't mean much. My cars were fine at first, but went south. The intial quailty on my Camry Hybrid has been absolutely flawless. 5800 miles now, absolutely no problems, not so much as a squeak or a rattle. Do I declare this a reliable, quality car? Only so far. I can't make that real pronoucement yet. I have to wait a few years down the road. My GUESS is that it will be, just given that the quality of materials and driving dynamics are superior to any of those other cars I drove/am driving.

    Scape--the Taurus is going exclusvely to fleets. If they're having a hard time killing it, its because Hertz prefers to pay Ford $12k for a Taurus rather than $16k for a Fusion, since they can charge consumers the same amount for each of them. The Taurus' SOLE appeal is that its cheap. That's it. A rental car company cares about nothing else. I think its safe to say its a "good car" in the same way my dad's 1999 Oldsmobile 88 was--very reliable, trouble free, good value, but not competitive in any area whatsoever. For some people, that's fine.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Accord EX with leather without Nav $24,000(On sale price-If you are lucky to get one)------$8,600 trade

    Sonata LX with leather $18,500(After rebates)------$4,800 trade

    You forgot to put purchase price of two.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    If you have problem with my next car purchase decision, you pay for it. otherwise, what the big deal?

    If you hate Kiadais, and won't buy them, its fine to me. As long as I don't have to pay for your next car.

    I had bad experiences with a certain brand, and I don't want to buy them again with my own money. Is it hurts you that much?
  • in our SF bay area. Almost all new Sonatas I see on the road and parking lots are rental cars. Pretty much like Taurus - and Sonata is a brand new car unlike Taurus which changed little during last 10 years! Not saying that Sonata is better or worse than Taurus (should be better taking into account 10 years difference) but still it's a fact - evidently nobody wants one.
  • That was an 83 Tercel wise guy and yeah That was Toyota then and they weren't impressive to most of the buying public. I suspect that cars have come a long way since then and so has Hyundai. Back in 85 they built the Excel a bad copy of the popular little Tercel. Today Hyundai has set it's sights on Toyota and Honda and in many ways like with the plant in Alabama, are surpassing them in the science of building cars. Geez, to some people you gotta explain everything. :confuse: :cry:
  • I feel like I'm back in high school arguing over who has the best sneakers. I hope you all realize that none of you will ever make a profit from these companies, and they really don't care about you. With the possible exception of you being an employee for one of these companies. Therefore, there is really no need to be defending a make/model so passionately. Ofcourse besides trying to make yourself feel better/justify the $1,000's more you spent on whatever it is you bought. As many have said, any make/model has the possibility of leaving you stranded on the road.

    I don't know what the fuss is over resale value either. I hope one day I can buy cars at the rate of every 3-5 years brand new. I would suspect it is far more likely people intend to keep their cars for as long as possible. And once you have 150k+ on a vehicle, I'm not really sure what kinda resale value you have on any car at that point anyway. And how many people that keep theri cars that long, just hand them off to someone else in the family (son, daughter, nephew, etc.) And how much of resale value is just based on perception/media hype? I think what I see is just as others have said, the big guys are starting to look in their rear view. At some point in time, sooner than you think, the big guys will indeed need explain why they charge $5000-6000 for a comparable vehicle. Sorta like those Wal-Mart commercials that are out now.

    As far as rental companies go, they just buy whatever they get the best deal on. Quality has nothing to do w/ it, so rationalizing that because you see a bunch of a certain make/model as a rental car means no one wants them is foolish.

    Everything goes in cycles my freinds. Hyundai's and the like cycles are on the way up, and Toyota and Honda are..well lets just wait and see ;)
  • We shopped the Accord, Mazda6, and Legacy. The Accord (LX/4cyl/manual) was the sedan benchmark, the Mazda and Subaru were wagons. The Legacy was ~$1500 more than the cheapest price I found for an Accord sedan. The Legacy gives up $1500, 2 mpg, and a less refined motor but gains a wagon body style, AWD, 16" alloy wheels, CD changer and what subjectively amounts to a sportier feel and a more comfortable driving position for short people. A year or so later, we still love the car, mileage is in the high 20s or low 30s depending on who is driving. The non-turbo motor is a little pokey (compared to the duratec V6 in the previous car) but no worse than the Camcord.
    The Legacy is the largest car I have ever had, it feels about a third bigger than the '93 Accord, which, incidentially, may soon be replaced by a MS6.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    BTW, all these posts putting down the Ford Fusion are also biased. Ford has been producing reliable cars since the model T. They may not have always been beautiful but to say that Fords are cheap or that they don't compare has never owned one or driven one as a fleet vehicle. Fords are hard to kill and I suspect when the dust settles on Dearborn when they are though restructuring, Ford will still be making quality cars in another hundred years. Yes at times they were utilitarian and to some still are. But Fords bad cars? No way.

    Very well stated. I liked the Fusion and Sonata eqally, and I had a decision to make. The Sonata was a tad bigger, quieter, and less expensive, and that helped me make my final decision. But I really do like the Fusion. It's a quality car in every respect.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Oh yeah, we already have 10 year quality ratings, It's called resale value. 97 Honda Accord $8,600.... 97 Hyundai Sonata $4,850... We have a new winner!

    Wow, that's a $3750 difference, which is exactly the difference in purchase price. I think we have a new new winner! ;)
  • venus537venus537 Posts: 1,443
    "Obviously, you've never driven a 6 with the V6. Not only is the power pretty linear, but it's neither louder, nor any rougher, than any Honda V6 I've ever driven."

    Well I have driven a 6 with the V6. It's no match to the Accord's 3.0l V6. It's puncher, smoother and quieter than the duratec.
  • So the Taurus still has significant demand from the private sector? I work for a Ford dealership..and NOBODY...I mean NOBODY comes in and asks about the Taurus. Hell, most consumers thought the Taurus was gone after MY2005. It may very well be different in your area, but in Upstate, SC and the Mountains of NC, few consumers care about the Taurus anymore. We don't even get briefed on the Taurus anymore.

    Even the Fusion is a hard sell for us, we didn't move many of them until Ford had that 0 for 72 promo going on, which got rid of most of the 06's except the S models. 07s are sitting all over our lot. The Mustang, Focus and Five Hundred move faster than the Fusion does, which is a shame, considering the Fusion is a very good effort by Ford. I think the Honda dealer across the street plays a role in taht.
  • "The Taurus' SOLE appeal is that its cheap."

    IMO, it sounds like sonata... "Theres nothing all that great about it"
    From edmunds long term tests, the MPG isn't that great, the interior causes some confusion (as with any new car), and the ergonomics are only OK. It looks ok but thats about as good as it get for me.

    -Cj :)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    ".. had bad experiences with a certain brand"

    If you don't want people to reply and converse about something don't post it. As I said, I can sympathsize, but you are the unlucky person who probably got the two bad Acura has ever produced.
  • I recently had a Taurus rental car (I know I know stop laughing) but while I didn't feel like it was fantastic in any one area, it was in CONSTANT use by one of 20 or so people for a long weekend. It was easy to drive, easy to see out of, and got okay fuel mileage (high 20s by its own calculation). The stereo was acceptable, and it was comfortable enough for 4 adults and a baby seat and 3 adults and 2 baby seats.
    The prior 3 rentals have been Fusion Zetecs. Driving nicely got about 30 mpg. I don't know, the Fusion didn't feel any more or less bland than the comparable CamCords.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    And how much of resale value is just based on perception/media hype?

    I think resale value is based on what used cars sell best, and how much buyer's are willing to pay for them. No one knows this better than the used car dealers, so I'm sure that's where the statistics come from. Obviously more people are buying used Accords than Sonatas, and are willing to pay more for them.

    Everything goes in cycles my freinds. Hyundai's and the like cycles are on the way up, and Toyota and Honda are..well lets just wait and see

    I think you are in for a very long wait. Toyota and Honda sales continue to increase every year. More people are buying them every year, not less.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Elroy 5 - there is no question that an Accord, or a Camry for that matter, will have higher resale values than a Sonata at the 5 year or 10 year intervals - or, whenever you choose to statisticaly calculate it. That, of course, is at the present time with the past perceptional-based values on Hyundai products.

    So what if a 10 year old Accord is worth $5K (for example) more than a comparably equipped and same model year Sonata? The Sonata buyer paid at least $5K less than the Accord buyer did to begin with! Can you buy a 2006 or 2007 Accord EX V6 with leather, etc. for $18,465 before TTL? I seriously doubt it. You can buy a 2007 Sonata Limited V6 with leather for that price. Thus, if all you are going to do is quote resale values, to make it a reasonable and valid arguement, you also have to quote the original purchase price of each vehicle - not the MSRP of each, but the actual purchase price. After all, if we are looking at how much money a person loses over a 10 year period, this is the reasonable and valid comparision.

    Honda is a great car, so is Toyota, as I've owned both. Hyundai is closing the gap very quickly. Is a current Honda Civic or Accord perceptionally or quality-wise the same as an old Honda Civic CVCC rust bucket or the old Accord? Of course not - just as the current Sonata is not analogous to the old Excel.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    w9cw, these posters keep saying that an Accord or Camry is not worth the extra $4,000 when purchased new. I am just pointing out that the Camcord is worth more now, and will still be worth more 10 years from now. The problem with your analogy that Hyundai is improving, is that the Camcords are improving just as much (my 03 Accord is lightyears ahead of what my old 92 Accord was). The domestic car makers have been playing "catchup" for the past 15 years. What makes you think Hyundai will be able to do what they can't? IMO, they will always be a generation behind. They have to have something to copy. If you're going to buy a Sonata, you may as well buy a 4 or 5 year old Camcord. Basicly the same thing.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    autoboy16, you need to learn the difference between "cheap", "inexpensive" and "value." Maybe you will when it comes time for you to buy a new car with your own money.

    It's difficult to determine from your writing style, "Theres nothing all that great about it"
    From edmunds long term tests, the MPG isn't that great, the interior causes some confusion (as with any new car), and the ergonomics are only OK. It looks ok but thats about as good as it get for me.
    , where you are quoting Edmund's (if at all). Are these your opinions or are you trying to quote Edmunds?

    You don't think that ABS, ESC and side curtain airbags are anything special on even the lowest prices Sonata? How about the quietness, ride, interior room, cargo room and (at least) adequate power? What about the rest of the features that are standard equipment? The real world MPG is very good but certainly not the best.

    If you drive a Sonata for a few hundred miles, I'm sure you will not say it is "cheap".
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Elroy, sorry but the Sonata has made great advances against the Camcords in the last 5 or 6 years. IMO that weighs differently than a comparison of '97 cars (10 years old). Sonata is closing the gap litle by little. Who knows what the used car value of the respective cars will be 5 years from now. Honda & Toyota have a proven track record. Hyundai has been improving theirs. It takes a while for a used car's durability & reliability to catch up with the present day market. In 5 years, the present 3 year old Sonata (2003)may be quite close to the 2003 Accord on the used car market. When any car starts to make big improvements, there is a time lag for those improvements to show up in the used car market.

    People "know" the good reputations and bad reputations. Whether a car is improving or falling back, it takes a while for the public to recognize the relative change.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    In 5 years, the present 3 year old Sonata (2003)may be quite close to the 2003 Accord on the used car market.

    I have a prediction. The 03 Accord and 03 Sonata resale values will be about the same difference as the original purchase prices 5, 10 years from now. Worth more now, and later.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,730
    cost more now and cost more later? ;)
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Posts: 992
    The mpg not being all that great came from edmunds stating that the sonata was averaging only 18.* mpg. Here are the links. Be sure to read the comments.

    The interior ect came from edmunds. The "Theres nothing all that great about it" quote came from the post I was replying too.

    The interior of the sonata isn't all that great. It reminds me of a corolla(le) we rented. ABS, ESC, and the usual 6 airbags for that much are ok but its standard on all vehicle trims I like so I dont worry about it. I never said I don't like the sonata. I gave it points for exterior styling. Its OK not that great.

    The sonata is cheap and inexpensive. Its a good car but not great. Too much plastic for me. Don't dislike the sonata and can YOU stop with the personal comments? I have MANY MANY years to buy MANY cars with my own money. I am quite the saver.

    image

    image

    Seems weird but its true. The corolla is "inexpensive". It has many of the $23k sonatas options for 16k. It may be smaller but my mom and i averaged 45mpg. Did I mention that like the accord, its 5 YEARS OLD!!

    -Cj :P
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,240
    "..but you are the unlucky person who probably got the two bad Acura has ever produced."

    You seem to have forgotten the tranny issues the TL had. Acura has had way more than just 2 bad vehicles since inception.

    On a more general note, there are so many different manufacturers out there that I would not buy another vehicle from the same manufacturer if the ownership experience of my current or a prior vehicle from that company was less than ideal. Thus, for me personally, I'll have to go through a lot of brands before I'll ever consider another Toyota, Ford, or Mazda. Honda is out based on dealership experience. I never made it into the actual car as the dealership staff was rude. Nissan is still in the game and my current car, a 99 Galant, has been the best vehicle I've ever owned. I will easily consider another Mitsu based on my ownership experience, although I am not attracted to the current Galant at all. My wife's Elantra has been practically perfect in over 50K miles so the Sonata is my current top contender for a next vehicle. GM offers nothing of interest to me; a friend has a Malibu and its OK but nothing more. Subarus are mildly appealing but they seem pricey for what you get. Every friend who has ever owned a VW says they aren't reliable.

    I'm valuing my experience over that of the data aggregators, but in the end I'm the one who has to live with my decision. They influences my opinions, I suppose, but I buy based on my experiences and those of the people around me that I trust.

    As a customer, I probably don't matter much to the car companies anyway. With the exception of a Mercury which didn't even make it to 90K miles (hence the ban on Ford products), I always keep cars for 100+K miles and generally for at least 6-7 years. So even if they do gain my loyalty it's not like I'll be making a dozen purchases in my lifetime.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    I disagree. I drove the new one before going with the Subaru.

    Yeah right. You drove one, you didn't own them. The 03 Accord is much larger, has eight airbags, much stronger stereo, smoother ride, V6 engine, transmission shifts smoother. The 92 Accord was not big enough, under the hood, to get any V6 into, had only one airbag (driver), no vtec (the 03 V6 gets about the same mileage as the 2.2 inline 4 in the 92 Accord did with 100 more hp). The 92 Accord handled great, that's for sure, but considering the larger size and weight of the 03 version, it handles pretty darn good.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "You seem to have forgotten the tranny issues the TL had. Acura has had way more than just 2 bad vehicles since inception."

    Actually, no I haven't. But I've refrained from listing all of the issues that plagued each manufacturer within the last 10 years. Especially Hyundai and Kia.

    As far as your comment on Subarus I couldn't disagree more. Instead of looking at them as being pricey, my take is you get what you pay for. And with Subarus you generally get a lot, although like any other vehicle there are tradeoffs. Admittedly some of the tradeoffs annoy me.

    The dealership experience is important, and I not only shop for a car, I shop for dealer. I also shop based on personal experience rather than the statistics purveyors. My choice of car manufacturers is rather limited. Maybe Toyota, Honda, Subaru, BMW and Porsche.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Thanks for the pix. Both interiors look nice to me. The look of the seat in in Hyundai is nicer than the look of the Toyota. I'd have to sit in them to see the real difference. All the newer cars have a lot of plastic as a cost & weight saving measure.

    When you are ready to purchase a new car, with your own money that you are saving, let us know what you decide. After that, let us know what you decide a few years later when you have a home of your own (& hopefully a nice family to support).

    A few thousand $ might make a difference to you then.
  • I am truly happy you are enjoying your vehicle. I am glad it met your needs and you feel it was a good value.

    I agree that in 15 years they figured out to put a bigger engine in it since they made the car heavier, and they added a bigger stereo.
    The comparison lacks compatibility though, a better benchmark would be the 4 cylinder model, which went from 2.2 to 2.4l and they added vtec (which was available in 1993 in the H22 in the Prelude, which was actually installed in the Accord for export). The V6 is considerably more $$$ even when inflation is taken into account.
    I also am not a fan of Honda automatics, but I am a big fan of their manuals. I think in the late 80s and early 90s, they pretty much wrote the book on FWD manual transmissions.
    I guess if you can make the car be that much more expensive, I would expect some improvement. I am glad you found that it was satisfactory.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    What were the Sonata engineers thinking? Let's put the A/C vents down here, just to be different. Where are we going to put the radio now? We can just cut out a part of the dash and put it there. Bad design, looks awful.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The comparison lacks compatibility though, a better benchmark would be the 4 cylinder model, which went from 2.2 to 2.4l and they added vtec (which was available in 1993 in the H22 in the Prelude, which was actually installed in the Accord for export). The V6 is considerably more $$$ even when inflation is taken into account.

    What I was comparing is the best Accord available in 92, and the best Accord available in 03. There is a big difference. From hanging around on Honda forums, I've found that many 4th generation Accord owner's have swapped in the Prelude H22 vtec engine, in place of the stock F22. The F22 was not a bad engine (for that time), but the H22 dohc vtec was much better.
  • I can see that comparison then, it makes more sense in that light of top of the line to top of the line. I would also add in the $5k or so to go from the equivalent model (like a 4 cylinder EX to the V6 EX).
This discussion has been closed.