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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    While I'm not a real fan of most Toyota products, last year they had a record year. I don't think they lost buyers they gain a lot of buyers. People will buy their product for the nameplate, just like people will buy their product for the nameplate. It's not really the nameplate, it's what's behind the nameplate. People do not have a problem, paying for a Camry, because they feel they get something for their money. A point lost to some posting here. I personally wouldn't buy a Camry, but they are as common flys.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,669
    Once again you're comparing 10 year old american cars with new camcords. Back then you could get into a brand new GM, Chrysler or Ford and you could tell it wasn't going to hold together. That's why I bought Hondas and Acuras in the late 80's/early 90's. I understand that you might be wary having been burned in the past but you need to give credit to the domestics for greatly improved products.

    The Fusion wasn't just "decent" in it's first year. It was almost perfect. And it may have issues down the road but it's not going to "fall apart" just because it has a blue oval on the grille.

    I drove a Lincoln LS for 6 years. When I traded it in it was still tight as a drum and in perfect condition. There were several small issues the first year or two - engineering/supplier problems - that once fixed were fine.

    It's not 1995 anymore.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    Yes, I forgot that Ford, Chevy are leasing companies. Financial arms of these companies make all the money, and their auto business are unprofitable for years.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I stand by what I said. Now, true, the Camry is selling mostly on autopilot, but they are having problems with them. Sludge in the engines, transmissions that cost $3000-$3500 to fix, and of course, no financing deals at all.

    ***
    So I'm looking at $26 grand anyway just to get into the VVT--why would I do that?
    ***
    Sigh. Because you get an engine that whomps all over the competition. Trust me - it's not $26K, either, if you get a 2006. GMs sell for near invoice as it is, then there's a slew of rebates. $22-23K effective cost is more like it(see below). And the CTS, I can show you one with the 3.6VVT engine in it, not the base - for $30K out the door, including delivery.

    Here, let's do a comparison.
    Camry XLE V6(because the LE is a joke - you can spend $5000+ on it to option it out like the GM) versus a LaCrosse CXS. Cars Direct, because it's easily verfiable and close to "street" prices. Note - even the SE isn't really comparable - they make you pay for floormats, leather seats, and all sorts of small nonsense.

    Camry:
    $24,407(awfully close to MSRP) plus the following options:
    - wheel locks(told you it was silly what they don't add standard anymore)
    - body color side molding(because two-tone looks "rental")
    - stability control
    - floor mats(though I was joking?)
    $28,095 total, delivered.
    Typical 8% loan for 60 months, $34,692 total paid on the Camry. (no fees, taxes, or anything computed - just interest alone)

    2006 LaCrosse CXS:
    - driver package
    - stability control
    - heated seats
    $27,482 total.

    Now, you'll probably say "wait - that's a 2007 vs a 2006!".
    But GM has financing programs on the 2006 models. 0% for up to 60 months. That's a $7210 savings over the Camry. In fact, that's about one year's depreciation - a significant chunk of money.

    Let's figure out what you could buy from Toyota that would total $27,482 total financed...(it's not going to be pretty - lol) I get $458 a month. Roughly $22,260. I don't think you can get a stripped-down Camry V6 LE for that.

    http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB70TOC021F0&restor- - e=false
    Nope, not quite. $500 short. On a no-option LE.

    This is what I meant by it being far less expensive. Most buyers don't figure out the entire equation and 0% financing is a huge factor. BTW, Chrysler is also doing it now. That 2006 Wrangler(new one is a bloated joke at nearly 500lbs heavier) for $20K/0% is mighty nice looking. Honda and Toyota? As if.
    ***
    So, now that we've beaten the "cost" part of the equation to death - it's a clear win for GM here, we get to reliability.

    GM is scoring well in initial quality. And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    .... Now, true, the Camry is selling mostly on autopilot, you disparage the American consumer. That's a horrible mistake.

    ... but they are having problems with them. Sludge in the engines, are you still living in 1999? This was two generations ago..give it up it doesn't exist any longer.

    transmissions that cost $3000-$3500 to fix, What are you talking about? This is the strongest part of any Toyota and with a 5/60 warranty it's rarely an issue. Provide some data and a reliable source for any signicant problems.

    and of course, no financing deals at all. OK that makes sense. It's a brand new vehicle and it's setting records in sales. Why should there be financing deals at this time?

    Your pricing analysis is accurate. And I understand your frustration that many, many, many buyers opt for the more expensive Camry XLE V6 over say a LaCrosse. But it's their money to do with as they wish. Can you imagine that some people even spend $70,000 to purchase wheels...sheesh.

    (1)GM is scoring well in initial quality. (2)And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term.

    Statement (1) is correct. Statement (2) is false or unverifiable. Do you have significant amounts of data on the new 2007 Toyota engines to support this claim?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,079
    d>Statement (1) is correct. Statement (2) is false or unverifiable. Do you have significant amounts of data on the new 2007 Toyota engines to support this claim?

    Camry woes

    Read all about the toyota Lexus, toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry trans problems. It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems. Did they just do that for the pure good-heartedness of wanting to publicize the problem? No, they were trying to short circuit information getting out!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Wait! I wouldn't buy a GM because of financing. You'll be making the savings in repairs after the warranty. Where with a Toyota the car will probably need little over the course of it's lifetime.
  • batistabatista Posts: 159
    GM is scoring well in initial quality. And their engines and transmissions are about half the cost to repair compared to the Toyota, so it's a clear win here as well - but only if you bother to look at where the money is going in the long-term. --Whatever!

    Not true at all. The 4T65 transmission in my GM car failed at 35K miles and that's with me taking good care of it with a transmission flush & filter change @ 25K miles.
    The dealership recommend a remanufactured transmision at a cost of $3600. They told me they could repair it but it would comeback eventually.
    I read in the Lemon Aid book that the Midsize GM vehicles have an issue with premature transmission failure.
    GM is going down. They keep making the same product but they can't perfect it. Same with their workhorse 3800.
    Intake manifold problems from 1998-2005. GM can't solve their problems with the 3.1L V6, 3.4L V6 and 3.8L V6.
    At 10K miles I started loosing coolant so they replaced the intake gasket and added sawdust into the coolant mix so that it would stop leaking.
    I won't touch a GM car again. I had $1500 worth of GM Visa points but threw it out and decided to go with Chrysler.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Read all about the toyota Lexus, toyota Avalon, and Toyota Camry trans problems. It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems."

    I would think you would know better than to judge the problems a car has by the posts on a particular forum. BMW, Subaru, Infiniti (I believe) that I know of, and there may be more, all have had representation on Edmunds and other boards. What conclusion can you draw from this? Nothing. All brands have had issues, not one has been immune and some more than others have issues. Toyota is not one of them. Believe me, they are lucky that people on autopilot just buy their cars. I want to develop a business model like that. Oh wait, GM/Ford already tried that, and they tripped over their shoelaces.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I'm aware of this thread.. and some people do have issues with the performance that's for certain. But as you can see by the activity of the thread it seems to be dying out as the sales of this new model approach 400,000 units.

    It's an issue that seems to be dissolving away in the same way the initial issues with the Avalon did. captain2?

    OTOH my statement in reply to plekto's blanket generalization (2) is ..what costs? All the 2007 transmissions that were fixed/adjusted cost the owners...........NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, $0.00!!

    Prior Gen models of the Camry have been noteworthy for their dependability and reliability as was be expected? There are no complaints of any major significance in these past models.

    So again. What costs?
  • We have been shopping around and we are completely stumped as to what to go with. We thought we would ask the experts their opinions.
    What are the best midsize sportiest sedans in the world in the $30K to $40K range ? No holds barred North American, European and Japanese, any make or model in the world (sold in the US). They must be fully loaded midsized (not full sized please) sedans with an engine that will make the car go like a 'bat outta hell'.

    Format Make, model, price, comment if you wish.
    example: 2007 BMW, 328xi (hopefully comes in a 4 door, we have a child), $39K MSRP, why I like it-300 hp.,4 year/50K mile bumper to bumper warantee, good buy for the money.

    You opinions are greatly appreciated.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's strange Toyota put a rep, TMUSA, on the group to handle PR as quickly as possible to spin the problems and the handling of the problems.

    Strange? I guess one might think so from a domestic pov. But it sounds like a smart move to get a direct representative in the mix to hear out the specific woes and report them directly back to Management. Those few clients with the snap-ring issue apparently greatly appreciated the immediate response and reaction. If the various TSB's that have since been issued do ameliorate the problems then having someone jump right on the problem was certainly the correct move. Maybe the detroiters should take note and use this as a case study ( and the similar Honda tranny situation ) on how to handle a difficult situation and keep clients in the family.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I wouldn't say either the Camry or Prius are "flying off the lot," this is simply not true at this dealer. In fact, I've never seen so many brand new Prius at one dealer at a given time - over 15 in stock at the moment

    November is the 'restocking' month before Toyotathon begins on about Dec 10th. December, especially the last 7 days is normally the third/fourth largest month of the year.

    Toyota announced a couple of months ago that it was doubling production/shipments of the Prius over the last two years of this Gen's life.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    What are the best midsize sportiest sedans in the world in the $30K to $40K range ?

    Try the entry level luxury sports sedans thread.

    There they compare the TL, G35, IS, CTS, 328 and others.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Do you want sport sedans or entry level luxury sport sedans. Without luxury the STI is all around best in class and a hoot to drive as well. Turbo, 4wd, easy to drive, reliable and fast. All for about $32K. For $40K and under the IS350, G35, 335, 328 and others all have varying amounts of luxury vs sport. As suggested head on over the Entry Level Luxury Sports Sedan board to see peoples opinions.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    In addition, Infiniti is a highly ranked brand in terms of quality and reliability. Head on over to the G35 problems and solutions board to see some of the issues Infiniti owners face. Car shuddering from the tranny, brake woes, bad headlight assembly and whatever else is there.

    All manufacturers have issues and it's easy to pick on Toyota. But their sales prove people like the brand in spite of some naysaying.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,079
    "Well I am sorry to see that alot of people are still having problems with the 4cyl. I traded my 2007 se 4cyl in alittle over a month ago. It cost me about 4 grand but I am alot happier without the problems. I will never buy another toyota again. My wife and I both buy new cars every two years, So I guess that is money that Toyota will not be receiving from us again. Good luck to everybody ."
    damon34, "2007 Toyota Camry Woes" #2416, 18 Nov 2006 11:45 am

    Yeah I guess they are dissolving away as customers sell them or they're bought back...

    kyhpyder says: It's an issue that seems to be dissolving away in the same way
  • Hold on now!! This is a comparison forum, not one to vent at an automaker with unproven, unwarranted,and outragious statements!
    kdhpyder is correct in stating that one shouldn't take what we see in these forums too seriously. Obviously your cutpasted quote is one where one person expressed frustration, but it isn't indicative of a landslide of disgruntled owners selling their cars!
    The transmission issue does seem to be fading away, just like the sludge issue of a few years back faded away. No doubt there will be other issues which arise in the future. It happens with all automakers; issue come and go. There are no "perfect" cars. Furthermore, there are far more important things in life to get upset about. So chill!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,079
    I was replying to kdspyder. I provided a response to the outrageous claim that there was no problem anymore as to why. You may have your own opinion. Please don't impose it on me since you obviously protoyota.

    Back to the topic.
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    Hate to break the news to ya.. Cars are a bad "investment"..
  • guestguest Posts: 774
    "You guys need to understand what Accords and Camrys really are selling for, and you need to compare them to American cars that actually have those same options on it. The gap is not what you think it is. The exception to this are the Hyundai products, which are running a couple grand ahead of comparables, so at least I can grant that they are good values. "

    Not as wide a gap as I think uh?? Go to the Milan vs Camry room and scroll through the posts. There was a guy in there that paid $4,500 MORE!@ for a Camry like optioned to a Milan. Tell him your story. He left and hasn't been back since...
    Trying to convince the public Toyota/Honda are actually less or even close in price is a joke. Get out on the net and see other chat rooms, or even here at Edmunds. You claim a Camry SE V6 for $26,000!!!? Thats good? I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion. Once again.. $3,000 dollars difference isn't much?? :surprise:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    damon34 was one of the ones having the problems and he solved it by trading away his vehicle. Nevertheless it is going away as the TSB's are implemented and/or the drivers become accustomed to the vehicle's characteristics.

    damon34's is one situation, out of approximately 400,000 vehicles on the road now. No matter how many anecdotal examples you pick out the weight of numbers falls on the side of the public loving this vehicle. There is no way to get around it, it's too huge. Despite all the specific examples you bring up in sum they still are a tiny part of the crushing weight of another record year.

    How about this for an hypothesis, 'The public loves this vehicle and has few if any complaints about it.'
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Also forgot to add. I got 0% financing on my Ford which will make it even less $$ over the lifetime of the loan..
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Trying to convince the public Toyota/Honda are actually less or even close in price is a joke. Get out on the net and see other chat rooms, or even here at Edmunds. You claim a Camry SE V6 for $26,000!!!? Thats good? I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion. Once again.. $3,000 dollars difference isn't much??

    Your implication is that someone, by spending $26000 iso the $23000 that you spent on your Fusion, did something wrong. They did nothing wrong, they just wanted a Camry or Accord or 3Series or LS460. It was their money and they chose to spend it as they wished. Why is that difficult to accept.

    You are putting your personal values on an entire population, it can't be done. The person spending $26000 for a new body, new engine 2007 SE Camry over a 2006 Fusion with the old engine obviously saw value in it.... and it was his/her money to spend. They have that right :surprise: .
  • ron_mron_m Posts: 188
    I paid $23,000 for a totally loaded Fusion SEL V6, leather, sunroof, 6CD changer, heated seats, every option that can be put on the Fusion.

    If you picked up a fully-loaded Fusion SEL V6 for $23,000.00 you did extremely well for yourself in regards to your negotiating skills! ;) Congratulations on your new ride. I think the Fusion is a great-looking car myself. Also, I did a whole lot of engineering analysis for some of the electrical interconnect devices(connectors) that are used in the Fusion, so I can guarantee you that a lot of extensive engineering analysis and testing went into the electrical components that my employer supplies to Ford. We really sharpened our pencils on the Fusion-related projects we were responsible for.

    Best of luck to you with your new Fusion! Should do you right.

    Ron M.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,079
    >'The public loves this vehicle and has few if any complaints about it.'

    You sound like a Toyota salesman.

    Go read the section linked above. If you believe that only a small number of problems exist, you are overlooking that most, MOST, people aren't going to be posting on Edmunds about their Toyota problem. In fact, most people will be talked out of there being a problem by their service guy at the dealership. "They all do that." "You just have to learn to drive your 'special' Toyota." "There's no problem."

    A few end up posting here. I understand from another post there's a large Toyota discussion on the net and there were discussions about the lag and flare problems.

    So we obviously differ. I see lots of older folk around here who have bought Toyotas who probably think they have to have lag and or flare during shifting.

    BTW. What's the mileage for first oil change for a Corolla?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I've been participating and watching that thread since it began, orignally on TN, with the snap ring issue. That's why I stated that since the recent TSB's the issue is dissolving away.

    The sheer volume of numbers speak. And the volume continues to grow. The KY plant is max'd out and at least 100,000 additional units will have to be redirected to the Subie plant in Indiana. This is not the characteristic of a model having major problems. Despite your herculean efforts to the contrary ;) the public does love this Gen6 Camry, even more than before.

    Under normal operating conditions, for all Toyota's it's 5000 miles or 6 months + rotate the tires.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    The thing is, that 6 speed automatic, when it does fail, is $3500. And eventually all transmissions do fail. That $3500 was on an older 2003 Camry. I was in there looking at the used Celicas a few months ago and ran into this guy. Car was just out of warranty and poof - $3500. He was suitably apalled.

    The GM 4 speed can be rebuilt at thousands and thousands of shops around the U.S. for $1400-$1600. And last as long as a remanufactured unit from the dealer.(75% of the time it's just the torque converter that's shot)

    GM and Ford are like this. (so is Hyundai/Kia) - They break more often, to be sure, but they cost about half as much. And Toyota seems to be having real BMW and Mercedes type problems with electronics and new fancy gizmos lately.

    Oh - 0% and 23K - yeah, nice deal :) That's like, what - $18,000 after payments if you were to buy something without 0% financing? That is a complete steal compared to the Camry. About a $10K savings in fact.
  • "And eventually all transmissions do fail."

    Yes, but you fail to understand that WHEN the transmission fails is more important.
    Which is worse for the owner:

    Spending $1400 to fix a crap GM tranny when it goes kaput at 36,001 miles or $3500 for a toyota tranny at 234K?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    My experience with 4 previous Camry's, each in excess of 125000 miles was that they began to 'show age' at 175-200K mi. At this point on my '97 I had the option of putting in a new tranny for $2800 or trade the vehicle for $2500, AS IS. I traded it. $2500 for a 7 y.o. 4c LE with a clunky tranny was acceptable. I got my use out of it.

    As noted above, this in comparison to two separate Chryslers I had in the 90's one of which required a $2500 tranny and the other major work both at under 50,000 mi. On those I did not get my money's worth.

    Oh - 0% and 23K - yeah, nice deal That's like, what - $18,000 after payments if you were to buy something without 0% financing? That is a complete steal compared to the Camry. About a $10K savings in fact.

    That's one great thing about this country. There are so many models and so many choices that everyone can be happy.
This discussion has been closed.