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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    status can change you know.
    (Alright, alright, I'm not gonna start this again :shades: )
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Yes Status can change.
    what about other brands like Nissan? It's selling very well and is still not considered a 'toyota/honda level' brand. But yes there is a chance Hyundai will become a "toyota/honda' brand, but i doubt it will happen in this decade.

    Ok i'll stop :P
  • janeencjaneenc Posts: 29
    Status is all in your head,... status comes with popularity. But it only takes a couple of people to go against the grain to set a new image in what is considered popular.Its confident people who try new things to set a different look or standard, then other people start to follow the trend. Just like a great designer handbag... I wear my new lx Sonata well!!! I don't care that others don't know it's the popular thing to do...yet... I get to start a trend!!! ;)
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    I don't give a (blank) about status. Why spend a lot more $ to try to impress someone else who probably also doesn't give a (blank) about what you drive. But you may be on to something. I never, ever, thought of Honda or Toyota being status symbols...just good reliable cars at a reasonable price.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Well you may not think Toyota and Honda of status symbols but i know a lot of people do. Even car manufacturers see them as 'status symbols' I notice they tend to say things like "roomier then Accord and Camry" etc.

    I didn't buy my Accord because of its "status symbol' I have better reasons.
    Ex: High resale value - 06 Sonata's is still unknown
    *I need a car with a high resale value because i tend to sell them after 3 years.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Let me just say that I don't necessarily disagree with (like always :shades: ).
    Here are some of my thoughts. Relax and read at your leisure.

    I don't know if Camry (or Accord) represent any substantial social status.
    Most people who drive these family sedans tend to focus on economy, value,
    roominess and safety more than anything superficial. They tend to be more real :P
    They probably have the most in common with people who buy minivans.

    Plus, Americans love their bargains. Price seems to be No.1 factor almost always.
    As long as we can get good deals, most of us are willing to try almost anything
    even if it is unproven in quality. (Remember Yugo? Hyundai Excel still holds the
    sales record for freshman imports :P) Look at employee discount sales results.
    We love our good deals!

    That's why Hyundai has so much potential in this segment. (Especially compared
    to more upscale segments that Hyundai seems to have its eyes on.) Of course,
    as segments get lower and lower Hyundai probably has more and more
    competitiveness, but this segment attracts enough people who really doesn't care
    that much about status as long as a company can provide good value.

    I believe we'll clearly see whether this car will get accepted or not long before the
    resale value results start to show up on websites and blogs (1-2 years). Even if
    Sonata does not reach Camry level in resale value or long-term quality, if Hyundai
    can hold its own (as I believe it surely will, given recent progresses), It will become
    a real competitor because of its price and warranty advantages.

    I would not be surprised if Sonata ends up defining the segment by the end of this
    decade. (That's quite different from saying Sonata will be number one in this
    segment, too. Sonata sales overtaking any of Altima/Accord/Camry will still be the
    biggest story in this segment.) We'll see how the Sonata sales go since the production finally is in full swing.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    about what we are talking about. (although it kinda contradicts my post)
    I think it just came out.

    "Buyers do not consider Hyundais desirable and prestigious, images that Hyundai officials say is the key to success from here on out.
    "We've got to make it a car that you want to buy, not one that you have to take,""
    -> the cold truth from the mouth of a Hyundai official

    This is why I like the company. They seem to be very frank about their problems
    and want to work hard and listen to customers. :shades:
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Size ways perhaps. Reliability is a definite NO. The Nissan Altima is closer to the lesser Hyundai and Kia in reliability than the reliable Camry and not-quite-so reliable Accord. :cry:
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Says who? As ctalk keeps saying, the new Sonata's reliability is definitely
    unknown. Heck, we don't even know the long-term reliability of '04 sonatas.

    BUT, we can make an educated guess based on certain statistics (if nothing
    else, for the sake of this arguement).
    It is statistically true that long term dependability correlates to initial quality.
    The following article is a good reading about Hyundai's improving quality.
    Hyundai Sonata is Tops in Consumer Reports Reliability Survey

    For the last few months, JD Power has gone out of their way to point out the
    improvements Hyundai has been making. No one will be surprised if '04 Sonata
    does well in dependability survey next year because '04 Sonata did so well in IQS.
    It will be more surprising if VDS suddenly drops or stays at the level before the
    IQS improvements. In many people's minds, the question is how much, not if.

    Remember, '04 Sonata came out #1 in IQS. '05 Sonata came out #2. It is highly
    likely that Sonta will do just as well as (or even better than) Camcord in next
    year's VDS and the one after that.

    There are objective indications that Hyundai will do well, I have not seen any
    objective indication to the contrary. Some people here tend to use whatever
    their previous experiences (or even worse, things they heard) to assume that
    Hyundai will do worse than Toyota or Honda. And I believe that's a mistake.

    For now, though, I will wait and see.
  • nornenorne Posts: 136
    Honda and Toyo as a status symbol? Yeah right. I'm sure you know quite a few people who thinks toy/honda are status symbols. ;)
  • deluxedeluxe Posts: 29
    There is plenty of 06 sonatas here in Grand Rapids, Mi. I was in Honda dealership last Sunday and across from the street is Hyundai dealer, they had 6 (or maybe 7) new Sonatas all lines up in fron of the showroom- there were some people looking at them, i asked the salesman did they sell any yet, and he said, that he sold 2 that day already..

    Nice car, not as refined as japanese/german rivals, but for that price/warranty you get a good car,imo.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Good article.
    "Buyers do not consider Hyundais desirable and prestigious, images"

    Exactly. But this will change, maybe in 5 or 10 years, we'll have to wait and see.

    Brand Residual Value: Hyundai definitely has to work on this. Its near the bottom Its below the industry average I believe.

    I remember reading somewhere Honda is at the top, then Toyota....
    1. Honda
    2. Toyota
    3. Nissan
  • deluxedeluxe Posts: 29
    Just came back from Germany, not one Lexus on highway(autobahn)...Yes, Lexus gets great reviews from german press also, but they still have way to go if they think about selling a lot of vehicles in Germany, they sold 2300 vehicles total in last year in Germany(according to german press).

    Just for comparison Mercedes sells about 10000 S-class vehicles per year on average.Last i checked Lexus held a 6% of the "luxury" market, which is I guess a good start, but the numbers for last 3 years did not increase significatly.They might be better vehicles, but Germans will not embrace them as much we embrace japanese over domestic vehicles.
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    At this point, I don't think Americans are as attached to their vehicles as Germans
    are to their counterparts.
    But, your post clearly is true. I've heard many say Lexus doesn't have a soul that
    German cars do (or something to that effect).
    I wonder what Germans think of Hyundai luxury brand :P :P
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    When i went to germany i saw barely any japanese automobiles there. Why get a tsx when you can get a rear wheel driving 3 series for about the same price? Not much point and same goes for lexus cars when you can get a 5 series. Germans care about quality, and craftmanship rather than long term reliability.

    I think personally the 06 Sonata will do better than say a accord or camry in germany, because of its price and it has some flair about it

    Lastly i just want to touch up this status symbol talk. Bmw, Honda, Toyota do steal some sales just solely because of their names, and the few thousands you see roaming everyday in the streets. Some people rather not be an outsider. But if the car is good, hyundai or suzuki or mitsubishi, status cannot save another car company alone. Look at for exmaple the G35 and 300. These cars are great cars now and have been alive only a short period of time. Though honda and toyota camcords will keep selling well, the amount of sales that will produce from the 06 sonata will take a life of its own like the G35 and 300(its already happening).

    Whereever the 06 is at thus far, hyundai has a created a success mid size car only the way they could, and should be praised for their work well done in my opinion
  • truethattruethat Posts: 123
    Sonata was specifically designed for US market in mind. The growth in size
    demonstrates this very well. It will be somewhat of an akward vehicle in
    Europe (although it has more potential in emerging Eastern Europe).

    I don't think Sonata will outsell Japanese rivals in Germany any time soon.
    You won't recognize many of the Japanese vehicles in Europe because they
    don't sell the cars that are marketed here.

    Kia, IMO, has more potential in Europe, including Germany. Their design has
    more European flair in general and sales have been skyrocketing. (something
    like 30+ percent growth over the last year) It goes head to head with its sister
    Hyundai. They are building a plant in Slovakia as we speak (seems to indicate
    the diverting strategies for the group.) Watch out for Kia's new Optima. It will
    probably be more "European" than Sonata.

    Interestingly, Toyota does not sell Camry in Europe. European version of Camry
    is Avensis and it looks very different despite the shared platform. You will see as
    many Avensis as any other imported car in Germany. My point is European taste
    in cars is very different from ours. Japanese luxury brands, IMO, look really
    awkward in European roads for the same reason. They were meant for the
    American market specifically. (Acura doesn't exist in Europe. For Infiniti, US
    market is the only one in the world, although I hear they are introducing it to South
    Korea of all places.) Direct comparison of current Japanese luxury models just
    isn't fair in European market.

    Alright, I've taken a sideroad, let me get back to my point.
    Sonata really needs a success in American market. It was designed for the
    market, after all. They can't count on sales in Europe to make up for any short-
    comings here. Moreover, the cars are being built here! The 1.1 billion investment
    almost solely depends on Sonata and Santa Fe's successes.
  • choe13choe13 Posts: 348
    I'll correct myself, tsx doesn't exist in europe, its the honda accord there rebadged

    and infinity and lexus are nissan and toyota with other names for their cars. I guess their luxury division does not have the same impact as it does here in NA

    But my point is that , you wont' find many japanese cars in germany period

    06 sonata may not do well in europe just because of its lack of handling abilities the europeans like, but it is tastefully exteriorly design, that will get some looks

    In my opinion the european market is extremely hard to sell cars than anywhere because of the massive variety of brands available there(more than the NA). Plus europeans like bmw's mercedez opel even ford has somehow managed to make a name for itself there

    Lastly to rebuttal what Truethat said about japanese cars looking really awkward in europe, i don't think thats the case, its more that those cars are excellent straight driving cars and are a little on the mediocre side when the roads get twisty. As well, euros love design, and the japnese cars are made more to do with functionality than flair

    This is how i think most people see cars made by countries
    European(bmw, saab, opel) - gorgeously designed, great handles, quality craftmanship(excellent materials like leather)
    Asian(toyota, honda, hyundai)- building towards long term reliability, efficiently made
    NA(gmc, ford) - Big space, Big horsepower, truck specialty
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    There is actually no TSX in Europe. The TSX here is the Honda Accord in Europe. The Euro Honda Accord is actually doing very well, ever since it introduced the diesel version. Sonata will not sell well there because it caters more to the U.S. market. "its vanilla flavored"

    The Accord is doing reasonably well because it has a more European flair. The styling is more aggresive, handling more sporty and size is smaller. Also, Europeans care a lot about prestige. Frankly, Hyundai has no prestige.

    Hyundai created an excellent car for the U.S. market. If Hyundai wants to sell well in the European market, it needs to create another Sonata like what Honda did with its Accord. A good example of what Honda is doing to make its cars more appealing is the new redesigned Euro Civic. It may look very odd to us, but to Europeans it is appealing.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    The next Kia Optima is supposed to be a smaller, sportier and more fun to drive alternative to the new Sonata.

    I'm willing to bet next Optima will work better in the European market too.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    status symbol
    Something, such as a possession or an activity, by which one's social or economic prestige is measured.

    Don't confuse prsent popularity with "status."

    If one is looking for status, he should look at a luxury car, not a Honda, Toyota or Hyundai (nor a Ford, Chevy or Dodge). I remember when Acura was first introduced in the USA...was at a PGA Tournament. While vistiing the vendors' tent, we checked out the new brand Acura. The guy told us Honda's research indicated that American wouldn't pay (whatever it was) for a car called Honda, which was already being sold as a Honda in Japan, so they developed a new brand name, Acura.

    Honda's own research told them Honda was not a car people would pay more for to achieve "status." Honda made good cars then, they make good cars now. But status, forget it.
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