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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,625
    Good point, and it helps explain too why so many Impalas and Malibus are sold. There's a Chevy dealer in almost every town in America.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    "Consider that Nissan has a LOT of experience with CVTs" - how do I know Nissan has experience with CVTs? Can you provide some details?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,625
    For example, they have used a CVT in the Murano for a few years. The Versa/Tiida also has a CVT. There may be other Nissans around the world with CVTs, those are the two I know off the top of my head.

    Here's an article I found that does a good job explaining the CVT used in the Murano. Notice that it's from April 2003:

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/030402.htm

    And here is some background on Nissan's history with CVTs and plans for the near future:

    http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2005/_STORY/050228-01.html
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    And I may add, some of the dealerships may seem smaller, and not so impressive. Some taking on the air of " we sell to those with no credit ' looking dealerships. NO, not saying all of the dealerships, but some. Just a thought. Early image of crappy cars did not help. Kinda rubbed-off on some dealer images. With better reliability scores, more dealerships, and hopefully larger ones, it is looking a bit more stable in USA. A whole lot better than Mitsu.

    Noticed the only Mitsubishi dealer which is close by, say 18 miles away, has a very small service dept. and has changed hands at least once in a couple years now. The next dealership is 135 miles or more away. The in town one is gone, as is another one 30 miles away. They dropped like flies about a couple years ago.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Here's my question: If the Sonata is as good as Camry and Accord (I don't think it is, but for the sake of argument), AND its much cheaper--why can't the move more units? And that's not even accounting for fleet."

    Brand/model loyalty is one big reason. People have been buying Camcords for years, and aren't going to change what's been working for them.

    Toyota could build the world's best fullsize truck with the next Tundra, but sales would still be less than a quarter of F series sales. Brand/model loyalty is a powerful thing, and a very coveted thing.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Rome wasn't built in one day. Korean cars are building momentum. Not sure they are taking away as many Honda, Toyotas, and other Japan makes, as they are American labels. That said, all the car manufacturers will be keeping an eye on Hyundai. With a much smaller number of dealerships, a once really tarnished image, and a limited number of offerings, I think they are doing OK.

    The car is sold as a value. It may be a value. I would do more research before declaring it another Accord or Camry, only less expensive. Maybe it is one of those just close enough, or better yet, is perfect for me type of cars. When you get right down to it, only the buyer needs to be satisfied. We can talk looks, fit and finish, engines and a whole lotta tech stuff, but it all boils down to if I pay $17K and bought this car, in this case the Sonata, was it MY best choice to fit what I need, and/or want. Personally, I am keeping an eye on reports of less gas mileage than stickered on the window, and reports of noises and such. My guess is that so far, though not perfect, it still is a good one to at the very least consider when shopping, if you like it. I would not buy a car which had no appeal to me, just because it is good work horse, unless just a commuter car, or something.
    -Loren
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    DIFFERENT, affordable and offer real value. Accord and Camry reign is going to come to an end, its already begun if you follow the internet. And listen to what consumers are saying and not the media. The media will come around in time.

    Silly statement..

    80,000+ buyers amonth choose the Camry and Accords. These are all media types?

    If Ford makes it through this year....

    The Accord and Camry are limited by production capacity. Nevertheless the Camry will only set a new record of 450,000 units this year - until the Subie plant comes on stream next year when its sales will jump to over 500,000 units annually. Yours is wishful thinking but looking at the monthly stats as noted above the two just keep steamrolling every other make.

    There are alot of good models out there but here is one incontrovertible fact. None of the other models will be able to pass either the Camry or the Accord for at least 5 years - if ever. And the reason........production capacity.

    You can continue to hope, but don't bet on any other taking the top slot ( except the Corolla ) for the foreseeable future. Next year you can expect 550,000 Camry's when the Subie line goes on stream; i.e. 20% increase in one year.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    We added a Hyundai store to our two Toyota stores, Chevy store and Acura store ( Honda store due next year ). Your comment about the perception of the management and sales staff about being 2nd class sellers from past problems was apparent. A whole new team was moved in from one of the Toyota stores to change the mentality there.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    Good information. I was worried because I knew of Saturn's miserable failure with CVT - Saturn dropped CVT from VUE because it could not build a CVT that would last 3 or more years without failing. A large number of unfortunate VUE CVT owners are still out there.

    Some are speculating that Nissan and GM would join hands soon - if that happens, I would not consider Altima anymore. I don't want to pay for GM engineering and quality (I have burned my hands once and I am very cautious now).
  • Rome wasn't built in one day

    Rome crumbled and died tho.

    Hyundai has improved their vehicles, but not their perception with American consumers yet. The majority of consumers buy with their hearts and minds, and Hyundai has a long way to go to make these people feel comfortable about buying their vehicles.

    The pipe smoker with the newspaper under his arm walking onto the lot may buy the Hyundai because of all the 'stats', but a car is more than a bundle of stats.

    Look at BMW. Their cars are rarely the best in any one category but their total package is widely accepted.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Look at BMW. Their cars are rarely the best in any one category but their total package is widely accepted.

    BMW has the unique driving dynamics which other manufactures find hard to replicate (look at Lexus). What does Hyundai have to make them stand out in the pack besides value?

    Camry - rock solid reliability, class leading V6 engine, class leading technology package.

    Accord - rock solid reliability, good balance between comfort and driving dynamics, class leading interior refinement, one of the best 4 bangers in the class.

    Not trying to bash Hyundai here but so far I find Sonata to be good a almost every characteristics but hardly great at any. To me, in order to become the benchmark like Camcords, the Sonata needs to become the class leader at at least one area.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,625
    What does Hyundai have to make them stand out in the pack besides value?

    For purposes of this discussion, here are some ways in which Hyundai stands out:

    * Roomiest interior in the class (actually in the EPA "large car" class)
    * Best brakes (based on multiple comparos)
    * Only car in its class with standard ABS, traction control, electronic stability control, and active front head restraints on ALL trim lines.
    * Best warranty in its class (tied with Kia and Mitsubishi)
    * Quietest ride in its class (based on multiple comparos)

    By my count, that's more than one area.
  • lweisslweiss Posts: 342
    Well, some of us old guys remember when the first Honda Civics, Toyota Toyopets, and Datsun B-210s (not Nissan back then) started selling in North America- they were small, seemingly crude vehicles, and the Big 3 and Europeans did not take them seriously. But every year brought some product improvements, new models- they learned from their experiences and had the long view. But even the Asian manufacturers are not infallible- if you look at Mitsubichi, Isuzu, and Suzuki, they can have their problems too. After the Koreans will come the Chinese auto makers, just you wait.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Styling of the Camry more agressive!!??? than a Fusion?? you have got to be kidding me. I have parked a Fusion side by side to a Camry and in no way does the Camry look more agressive.. Fusion styling stands out of the crowd which makes it stand alone..

    "Camry/Accord V6's better" how? by .6 -.8 seconds 0-60 depending on what review you want to believe? The 3.0 Duratec equipped with VVT is a proven engine. It has been around now for almost 10 years and has proven to be a longterm reliable engine. What do you mean??

    Quality fit and finish in the Fusion/Milan have one awards for fit/finish and quality. Fusion/Milan are on par with the Camry/Accord. Its just that it has been so beaten into your head by the media you can't see it.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "You can continue to hope, but don't bet on any other taking the top slot ( except the Corolla ) for the foreseeable future. Next year you can expect 550,000 Camry's when the Subie line goes on stream; i.e. 20% increase in one year. "

    Wasn't the same said about Ford/GM in the late 80's. Noway is Honda/Toyota ever going to be #1 in sales of cars.. Hmmmm...Look where we are now..

    I just find it awfully funny how some are so closed minded and one dimensional about Honda/Toyota. Who is to say Hyundia won't take the lead in 5-10 years? Or even Ford or GM? Nissan?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Yes yes, the Fusion definitely looks more aggressive than the Camry...THE LAST GEN CAMRY THAT IS!! I don't know about you guys but the current gen Camry definitely turns my head whenever I saw them on the road. As for Fusion, not so much. Not trying to bash Fusion here but as for me (and I said many times) Fusion's style is nothing new. Front end reminds me of infiniti G, Rear end reminds me of my 94-97 Accord with Altima's Euro tail light. Not that it looks bad, as matter of fact, it looks good, one of the top lookers in this class. But aggressive? I don't even so.

    Not even going to start with the 3.0 Duratec. Ford, put the 3.5 V6 in there and you'll have a winner. I also disagree with Fusion's interior to be on par with Camcord's. Is it a nice interior? Yes. The best in class? NO. To me, Camry's interior is nothing to write home about (although it's light years ahead of last generation's) and same as the Fusion's. But Toyota used better quality plastics in the Camry than Ford does in Fusion (less hard plastic, which is really important). Accord's interior is just hands down the best. Better ergonomics, better material and better looking.

    Nobody's saying that Hyundai won't take the lead in 5-10 years but the thing is...they are not in the lead yet. So before they do, we can all stop pretending like they already did. When the time comes, all the so called Camcords loyalist will just shut up and accept the fact, trust me.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    Not trying to bash Hyundai here but so far I find Sonata to be good a almost every characteristics but hardly great at any. To me, in order to become the benchmark like Camcords, the Sonata needs to become the class leader at at least one area.

    I'd say it needs to be in more than one area, unless that one area is the one that an Accord owns - the overall feeling that you bought one damn good machine. Hyundai is trying to give their first born to get that.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,625
    But in order to get that feeling... you have to buy one. I think that is Hyundai's main struggle with the Sonata--getting more people to check the car out and see that it is a damn good machine, not the Hyundai of yore.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    The 2002-2006 Camry wasn't class leading in anything, except maybe in cushy ride. Engine power was way behind the Altima/Accord, mpg wasn't that good, exterior styling was boring as heck, interior was plain, handling was mushy, etc. Never won a single comparo (always about mid-pack).

    Yet, it was the best seller year after year. If it's a Camry, people will buy them.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I just find it awfully funny how some are so closed minded and one dimensional about Honda/Toyota. Who is to say Hyundia won't take the lead in 5-10 years? Or even Ford or GM? Nissan?

    I find it funny how many folks get so worked up over the hope that the company that makes their preferred car will sell more than some other brand. If anything, I am glad that not so many want to buy my favorite (Mazda6). I'd rather not see someone else driving the same car every 30 seconds.
This discussion has been closed.