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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • OnTop...don't sweat it...you get to vote with your dollars for whoever/whatever you want. Since we know the driving experience doesn't do much for you either way, nor sound quality, I would think there are a million cars you can choose from.
    I don't think anyone makes an inferior choice, just some cars meet peoples needs better than others. Beleive me, I think I speak for every free man, woman and child in the US when I say we are glad you have a vehicle you like.
  • True Ford (an other domestics) are opening some factories in Mexico and laying off thousands of employees. Its a sad fact of decades of missmanagement. It is also true that the Japanese imports are opening factories here in the US, thus providing jobs for americans. However, the simple fact remains that GM/Ford/DC employ far more americans than all of the imports combined. When this changes Ill believe you when you say the Japanese imports are a US company, until that time I just laugh when I see comments like this.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    So when you go out car shopping, do you look at the "American Content" labels? To be sure you are buying a truly "American" car, it will take more than just picking one from GM/Ford/DC. Did you know an Avalon has more "American" content than the Classic PT Cruiser? If you think people are going to choose a car based on how American it is, you're mistaken. You can go around comparing American Content labels, and settle for what ever has the highest American content. I will buy the best car I can get, for the price I'm willing to pay.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    Tell me why the 08 Accord could be so advanced and the 09 Fusion cannot? Once again a bit of bias going on here?

    The Fusion is getting a facelift in '09 and not a full model change right? The '08 Accord will be a full model change and the older than Fusion current Accord already beats the current Fusion in just about every comparison test out there... you call that bias?

    Don't count of Ford to make big bold changes to the Fusion, they don't have the dollars to go crazy into R&D right now and remake the platform. It will be evolution, not revolution.

    Honda has SH-AWD that it could bring into the Honda lineup if it wanted or keep it to the Acura lineup... far more advanced than any Ford AWD technology to be had today.

    And I think Chevy and Chrysler are doing just - not always great, but they have something to offer. Its Ford that is in major trouble. And even the Mustang won't save them... Challengers and Camaros will be out... and those are going to be sweet cars. Chevy keeps winning Nascar races and Toyota's headed into Nascar now too.

    That Ford is now turning to the Euro Focus for salvation is again indication they cannot produce something new anymore. It will be steal, beg, borrow, etc... same old cost cutting in different ways... not built from ground up brand new all American designed cars.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    That Ford is now turning to the Euro Focus for salvation is again indication they cannot produce something new anymore. It will be steal, beg, borrow, etc... same old cost cutting in different ways... not built from ground up brand new all American designed cars.

    Ford North America designed and engineered the F150 and Mustang so they're certainly capable. Producing something totally new just so they can say it was done in the U.S. when platforms already exist elsewhere in the company is the most ridiculous thing any company could do. They might as well just throw money out the window.

    Honda and Toyota use global platforms and they're praised. Ford does it and they get slammed. Please don't tell me there's no bias here.
  • Im in no way advocating a buy american only idea. I to shop around for the best car at the best price. I currently own a Ford Focus and a Nissan Quest. Im just trying to correct the notion that the Japanese imports are more American than GM/Ford/DC because Toyota built X amount of factories in the US while the domestics layed off nearly 100,000 workers and built factories in Mexico. I agree, its crappy of Ford to send those jobs out of the US, but its not because they dont care about american workers. Its because it has become a matter of survival. To make a profit and escape the UAW they have to. The other choice is to go bankrupt and really put some american workers out of a job.

    True there are some import vehicles (Avalon) with more "American" content than the big 3 (PT cruiser). However, did you know that in 2005 GM/Ford/DC had a domestic content of 76% in its vehicles compared to 48% domestic content for Japanese vehicles? I got those facts from here http://levelfieldinstitute.org/domestic.htm

    Speaking of domestic content. I think GM may have a winner on its hands with the 08 Malibu. Of course thats a very initial belief. Hopefully the real thing will be as good as they make it look in the spy photos.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    Ford North America designed and engineered the F150 and Mustang so they're certainly capable.

    And despite all their excuses to try and justify it, everyone knows they skimped on the Mustang with that live rear axle setup. Plus they spend all their $$$ on a truck and a lower volume pony car... instead of developing multi-use platforms that generate high volume sales. Chevy and Toyota are going to eat into their truck sales and they still lack a super platform for a car. Nissan did it right with the versatile FM platform.

    Nothing wrong with using global platforms, but platforms have to be revised too. Just turning to the Euro Focus means the platform will not be new. And products like the Accord and Camry are engineered with sales to the US market in mind as well as being global... the Euro Focus was not developed as a global platform from the get go with the US market being part of the consideration. There's no bias - just a lot of blinded Ford fanatics who can't see how doomed the company is right now.

    Ford is a global company that never acted like it for so long. They are just starting to do it now... its a little bit late and they are going to pay the price dearly for it. The world has moved on and left them behind.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    Honda and Toyota use global platforms and they're praised. Ford does it and they get slammed. Please don't tell me there's no bias here.

    I checked out a Fusion last year and chuckled at Ford's attempt to take on the CamCord. Most people don't take Ford seriously in the car market. They can't truly compete with Toyota cars, globally or locally.

    They should stick to trucks.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    "I checked out a Fusion last year and chuckled at Ford's attempt to take on the CamCord. They should stick to trucks."

    I'd actually take a Fusion over an Accord. I also believe that over 100,000 people made that choice over the last twelve months. THey are neither incompetant nor stupid, they just saw attributes and qualities the Fusion had that they liked, that the Honda/Toyota did not.

    I actually think Ford is doing right by the Fusion. They came out with the car last year. This year they added a Sport package to the base model, and an AWD option at the top end that no one has to date. It is unfair to say "oh, well so and so will get it soon". If they ain't got it, they ain't got it. Everybody will come out with a new feature down the road and be mimiced, it's called business. Next year the 3.5 will debut and incrementally sales will increase.

    Success breeds success. The more people that buy and like a car, the more word of mouth given. Word of mouth, any marketing firm, class, or drunkem professor will tell you is still the most prosuasive form of marketing. The Fusion seems to be getting positive word of mouth, given the high reliability, low cost of ownership, and constant media praise. I think the design is aging well as well. The New Camry came out, and Fusion sales continued to increase. The new Malibu won'y make that much a dent. It looks like an Impala and the Impala isn't killing Fusion sales. They don't need a major redo in 2009, just address the most pertinent customer complaints.

    You chuckle at the Fusion. I bet the people with Camry's that had tranmission trouble were chuckling just the same.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    "there is a new Accord and Malibu coming out in 2008 so even a redesigned Fusion in 2009 is too little too late and the list goes on and on and on. "

    So what? There was a new Sebring and a New Camry aka The Biggest Bull with the Longest horns and sales still rose for the Fusion. The Malibu will go through the same criticisms as the Fusion and it looks too close to the Impala which means its styling will age fast. The Accord may be a threat, but wouldn't the new Camry have been the biggest threat and sales still increased. You guys remind me of the Irish nobles in the movie Braveheart where even after victory, they still found ways not to support Wallace.

    "The new Silverado and Tundras are going to be eating into Ford truck sales."
    That has happened before. The thing about GM is those trucks are new and they won't want to incentivice them. Remember when Ford came out with the new F-150, GM put big incentives on the Silverado and the F-150 still had the BEST YEAR OF ANY CAR AT ANY POINT IN HISTORY. Ford has an advantage cause they have room to discount the truck, a new one is coming in 2008, it only has a year left anyway. And we'll see if truck loyalists take to a Tundra. Remember the Nissan Titan won review after review and then won deadlast in sales.

    "Ford doesn't have a competitive minivan."
    Niether does GM and that market is decreasing just like the SUV market. Nissan doesn't ahve a competitive one either (look at sales before you say it). So tell me what is your point.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,265
    The person buying needs to look at the whole concept, where the car started, where the parts come from in reality, where the money goes in the end.

    In this area Toyo is trying very hard to now change their image to an American company. They have used radio commercials. I saw a billboard but can't recall the silly link they tried to use.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    to talk about the cars, not the manufacturers here in this sedans comparison discussion, okay?

    And let's also try to avoid the personal sniping. We can present our thoughts and opinions without being derisive towards others.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I bet the people with Camry's that had tranmission trouble were chuckling just the same.

    Yeah, like the first 200 Camry V6 owners...
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Minivan is not the subject of this board but since someone brought it up, here are my thoughts...Yes, the minivan market is shrinking but why can Honda be successful but others can't? Also, why's that Hyundai/Kia trying so hard to dethrone the Odessy? By the way, Dodge/Chrysler is still in the fight trying to maintain their number one selling minivan title with a brand new Town and Country/Caravan. If the market is so dead like you said they might as well just pack it up and leave like GM and Ford did. The truth is that Ford and GM are incompetence in this area, it is ridiculous for us customers trying to make excuse for them to cover their own failure.

    Be honest, I don't think Malibu looks anything like the Impala. If one must, I think there are only 2 things look the same: the 2-part grille and bow tie emblems. The exterior reminds me of Acura TL, which is a very good thing for GM and the interior is tons better than Impala's.

    How can Fusion's sales not increase, since it's so new? The question to ask here is: has the sales number reach Ford's expectation? I don't have the answer for that but if I have to take a guess I would say NO. The ideal situation for Ford is to have Fusion's sales increase and both Accord and Camry's to decrease. That means the Fusion has taken the market share away from the class leaders. However, as we all know, that didn't happen.

    Same method applies to the truck sales as well. We'll just have to wait and see if F-150's sales number decrease not not due to the new Silverado and Tundra hitting the show room floors. If it does, oh boy, Ford is in big trouble.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    ...and an AWD option at the top end that no one has to date.

    An AWD option doesn't make much sense for a FWD sedan platform, yet Ford offers this on both the Fusion and 500. It just adds extra weight, decreases fuel mileage/performance and increases the cost for most buyers.

    That is why you have no AWD options for the Accord, Camry, Altima, Maxima... Lexus has no AWD GS350, but the IS and GS (both RWD platforms) offer AWD. Same thing with Infiniti with the G35x/M35x (again RWD platforms).

    I would rather see more LSD offerings on FWD sedans in the coming years.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Here we go again - if Honda/Toyota don't make it then you must not need it.

    It only adds 150 lbs and you only lose 1 mpg. If you read the reviews of the AWD Fusion you'll see that it greatly improves handling in slippery conditions. The Ford system actually predicts the need to shift torque to the rear before the wheels start to spin.

    Why should buyers be forced into more expensive cars or SUVs just because they want AWD?
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Ummm... there was an article on autoweek not too long ago, mentioning that the demand for AWD has increased sharpely, especially for the likes of the Ford 500 and other AWD offerings. I could get the link to the exact article but I don't think we are supposed to do that. Anyhow, the article has solid numbers to back up its statements. We may view it how we like, but people are buying AWD vehicles. Just like navigation. We can think it is useless but people still by vehicles with it anyway.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Be honest, I don't think Malibu looks anything like the Impala.
    It has to. Chevy is pushing brand DNA. The Cobalt, the Malibu, and the Impala all have a family resemblance but in my opinion the front of the Malibu is too close to the Impala's design.

    The question to ask here is: has the sales number reach Ford's expectation? I don't have the answer for that but if I have to take a guess I would say NO. The ideal situation for Ford is to have Fusion's sales increase and both Accord and Camry's to decrease. That means the Fusion has taken the market share away from the class leaders. However, as we all know, that didn't happen.

    Two things. Ford has already gone on record with Fusion sales exceeding initial expectations. Secondly, from a business point of view... you would most want the rate of increase in Camcord sales to decrease in a market where the number of buyers are increasing every year. To want the number of sales to decrease would be like hoping a three foot horse wins the derby. That is what you would want the most if it were a finite population of buyers. Also, with a growing consumer market, I may not care about Camcord sales as long as I am selling my product well. If I sell 300,000 units and Camcord sales increase significantly, if I am making a boat load off of the 300,000, it is all good baby, it is all good. Going after market share instead of profitability has led many companies astray only to find that though market share increased, the other guy is making more money. That's not good. If I were Ford, I'd be concerned about how many units I am selling first. Everything else follows after that.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    Here we go again - if Honda/Toyota don't make it then you must not need it.

    You forgot Nissan (Altima/Maxima), GM (Malibu), Chrysler (Sebring). If you add up all the entire midsize FWD platform sedan mainstream market, there's only a select few people that are buying AWD vehicles. Most (95%+) of the buyers do not need AWD... the sales numbers of Camcords alone are proof enough. Add in Sebrings, Altimas, Maximas, Malibus, and the Fusion/500 shows once again Ford doesn't quite get it.

    An AWD Mustang would be a good offering for snow belt drivers but they don't offer it. Seen many Mustangs fishtailing like mad in snow that FWDs have zero problems with.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    You can link articles here - no problem with that. :)
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Doesn't quite get it huh...

    "All-wheel drive has become all the rage, but it's a phenomenon that seemed to sneak up on some automakers.

    General Motors and Ford Motor Co. are among those scrambling to catch up as awd cars catch on.

    At the Chicago Auto Show last week, Cadillac officials admitted they underestimated demand for awd STS V-8 models. And Ford has struggled to meet unexpectedly heavy demand for awd versions of its Ford Five Hundred sedan, Freestyle sport wagon and Mercury Montego sedan.

    Ford executives might make awd standard on a new generation of Lincoln sedans that debut this decade. The automaker also might increase production plans for both the awd Mercury Milan and Lincoln Zephyr, which go on sale in about a year.

    All-wheel drive is the industry's newest "gotta have it" equipment, and it is about to get hotter. CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich., forecasts that North American automakers will build 1.96 million awd vehicles annually by the end of this decade. That's up from about 1.06 million units this year. And that doesn't include a separate wave of imported awd vehicles.

    "It's big," says forecaster Paul Haelterman of CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich. "It's more than just a trend. Every carmaker understands that if they're going to have a performance sedan, they're going to have to get all-wheel drive.

    "By the end of this decade," Haelterman predicts, "all luxury or near-luxury cars will have awd as standard or option." "
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Most (95%+) of the buyers do not need AWD
    a good point - how many areas of the country are frequently afflicted with, for example, snow covered roads? Agree that a very small percentage of the population are so effected. NYC area or Mid Atlantic states, no - anywhere south of the Mason Dixon line, no etc. etc.. If you live in the Mountain States, the Western part of New York, parts of the upper Midwest, possibly northern NEngland then, maybe there are good reasons to consider the tradeoffs of AWD as money well invested. And in those areas, you are not competing with the Camcords of the world, there would be where you want to own a Subaru/Saab dealerships, brands that have been well out of the mainstream for years.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    When I see those AWD IS250 with Florida or Georgia tag I just couldn't help it but laugh my rear off.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    What about rain ? It doesn't rain in all those places you're enumerating ? Check all the AWD ads and tell me if they're showing snow or RAIN in them, or at least a wet road.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    domestic content is for parts only and doesn't say a thing about who about who made the car, a Canadian, a Mexican, or an American. That American labor is what the domestic mfgrs. are trying to get out from under, while 'import' mfgrs continue to hire more and more. If you were advocating 'buy American' and did a little research, chances are the brands you would champion wouldn't have American surnames, although (currently) the Malibu may be one of the few!
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    If one can't drive in rain with either FWD or RWD with all season tires then one should not be allowed to drive, period.

    I drive in both Georgia and Florida so summer afternoon downpour is a norm to me. I had no problem driving in those conditions with either my old Accord w/all season and new IS350 w/summer tires.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    where I now live (in the southern part of Texas), we get about 50 inches of rain a year - and I don't consider AWD necessary or even a desirable feature to pay for. Doesn't make enough of a difference vs. a std. FWD (or RWD) layout, but it does seem to indicate that those ads you reference are having the intended effect on you.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    Uh-oh for Ford...

    http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=25114

    Ford sold less 500s this year, despite AWD option for it. The Fusion being its first full year its too soon to tell what will happen in 2007, my guess its gonna drop in its 2nd year. The only reason Ford sold more cars in 2006 than 2005 is because the Taurus was still in production feeding rental fleets. 2007 will be a bad year for Ford.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    What people "need" has NOTHING to do with it. No one NEEDS a 250 HP V6 Accord, either. Many now want to buy cars with AWD.

    I don't want to pay for AWD, I'd rather have ESC. But were I a manufacturer, I more likely want to offer AWD as it is more profitable (I assume) and (I would guess) in greater demand than ESC.

    I may think buyers are foolish for demanding AWD and not caring about ESC. But if that is the case, and I am a manufacturer, I'm certainly going to meet their demands, if I can do it profitably. Just as I am going to meet their foolish demands for a 250 HP V6 in a front wheel drive sedan, if there are extra profits to be made by doing so.
  • smittynycsmittynyc Posts: 291
    "NYC area or Mid Atlantic states, no."

    I beg to differ. The average annual snowfall in New York City is about 30 inches. Twice in the last ten years we've gotten that much in a single storm, and you can count on at least one 8-10 inch storm annually. The terrain is very hilly in a lot of places, even close to sea level.

    So even if you boil down the benefits of AWD to just being able to get started on a snowy day (there's much more to it than that, imo), it's definitely worth it to NY-area residents who can't miss work.

    In fact, during the blizzard of 2005 (almost a year ago), no non-AWD cars could get out of our parking garage for two days. It's a subterranean garage, with the exit on the "roof", and anything greater than a 3-4 inch snowfall is a big problem for the super because he and his crew have to shovel it by hand. My wife and I gave a bunch of people rides to their shifts at her hospital.

    I feel badly now that we didn't ask for contributions to offset the "penalty" we paid for having AWD. Maybe I'll do that the next time we have a big snow.
This discussion has been closed.