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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • Just cause these are midsize, family sedans doesn't mean you should give up performance. Most of these cars are sold as 4 cyls anyway, but the 6s allow "drivers" in this segment to actually enjoy their ride, considering how much time they spend in them.

    Acceleration may mean nothing to you. To me its one of the primary factors I consider when buying today. A car doesn't have to be the fastest - just fast.
  • matt44matt44 Posts: 9
    Hi - I realize my mileage is on the very low end. I completely expect that based on the way I drive. That is not an issue.

    The issue is that the more powerful, faster, older V6 I traded in (Accord), got 6 to 8 mpg better than the new Sonata. That is what is very dissapointing. It shows me that Hyundai is still far behind Honda in terms of technology, engines, and refinement.

    The leak I was told was not a common issue. However, the windshield washer motor that was burned out - service guy at the dealer said that was a common issue - he had seen several. Again - multiple trips to the dealer for getting stuff fixed on the Hyundai vs none by the Accord.

    I'm not sure where you live but the resale value around here is in the toilet. I'm already wanting to get rid of this junky Hyundai and looks like I'll have to try and sell it myself rather than trading it in. Again that is very dissapointing as I got offered more from the dealer on my Accord than what I would have acccepted in my head before I went in. Was very happy with they offered me. I know that resale value is strongly affected by fleets and the Sonata is over 50% fleet while the accord is at 1%. This also shows that the retail demand (real end consumers) is low for the Sonata as people don't really want it thus killing resale value even more!

    Oh well live and learn - I'll never be so cheap again when it comes to buying a car! Lesson learned!!!
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    More than half of the car buying public could care less about acceleration.

    But, if some of us in here talk about it, why does that bother you? Just don't respond and move on to the next post. You can talk about seat fabric if you want to, I don't care. I'm willing to bet more than half the buying public cares about it, whether or not they know it. Guess what I have to do to turn onto my street everyday? Accelerate. I have to accelerate to blend with traffic on the interstate as well, something that requires decent abilities in the engine bay. :shades:

    I won't even get on the impracticality bandwagon of the whole acceleration debate.

    Acceleration? Acceleration? Most people get the heck in their car and drive to work and never consider the 0-60 thing. Now realize, as the former owner of a Maxima, I was thrilled by this V6 after owning a 4-cylinder for 15 years. But c'mon most could care less so lets not make acceleration more than it is.

    Ok. They don't have to respond to posts about acceleration or "car enthusiast-topics" here either.

    Carry on talking about airbags, stereos, and warranties. I'll participate, as I have all three! :)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    acceleration is also the ability to merge more quickly onto the highway, and also the ability to use a sometimes aggressive approach to avoiding an accident - among other things. Other factors equal, the more powerful car is safer than the same car that is more challenged. And you don't need to be a closet drag racer to appreciate that - HP, handling and braking all figure very prominently into what makes a good, safe car - even more so that crash test results, airbags, and other 'safety' systems.
  • "Don't you think the fact that Toyota recalled more vehicles last year than it sold (first time in history I'm sure) is significant? Engine sludge, transmission problems, steering problems......etc. I'm NOT saying that Toyota is any worse than the others - they're not. But they're certainly not pristine anymore when it comes to reliability."

    You have just proven Leadfoot's point; 'educated' does not mean being knowledgeable about only Toyota problems, but problems with all cars a person is considering, which sadly was not the intention of that post.

    How can she be considered 'educated' only because she bought an Altima? That post clearly implied that anyone not buying a Toyota is 'educated' because of the probems the Camry had at introduction.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Depreciation, residual value, and/or resale value mean nothing, unless you trade or sell your car. Just as with the stock market, the market value of a stock at a given snapshot of time is meaningless, unless you sell your stock at that time.

    If you're one who trades a car every 2 through 4 years, don't buy ANYTHING affordable to the masses other than a Honda or Toyota (and, Scion). Most every other marque, including the up-scale European brands, will kill you on depreciation during that short period of time.

    However, if you keep a car 10 years or longer, the debate on which marque you purchase is really somewhat moot. Just make sure you make the right decision in the first place, and you will be happy.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,157
    I'm not sure which you're meaning. But IMO the horsepower peak rating means little for a car. It's the amount of torque it produces at a usable rpm and the choices of final drive ratio along withgearing ratios in the transmission that make a car really peppy and usable. I.E., the horsepower races of my car make 8 more horsepower than yours at 6000 rpm means little if the torque at 4000 is less than the lower peak horsepower car.

    Zero to 60 times mean little because I don't do much drag racing. I do some acceleration from stoplights and stop signs and just want the car to feel strong and that it's doing that easily.

    The handling is a factor in ow the car feels valued in the way each driveer wants it to behave; I don't do much avoid accidents where I swerve and go around telephone poles and back on the roadway. But I do want a car that reacts to steering input predicatably.

    Crash testing is easily built for in a car. It may not be as safe for other forms and directions of impact but it may meet the particular design standard for a 50% frontal collision with a certain shaped solid barrier; doesn't mean much when it meets up with an SUV or a guardrail anchor end.

    The numbers don't tell the WHOLE story.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    However, if you keep a car 10 years or longer, the debate on which marque you purchase is really somewhat moot.

    True - though there has been a track record in the past of old Accords/Camrys going tons of miles in their old age without much problems. Its like either way, Honda/Toyota seems to have an edge on other margues.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    I wasn't defending the previous post - just responding to leadfoot6's implication that the only problem was a few teething pains on the 07 Camry tranny. It's a bit worse than that.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Don't you think the fact that Toyota recalled more vehicles last year than it sold (first time in history I'm sure) is significant? Engine sludge, transmission problems, steering problems......etc. I'm NOT saying that Toyota is any worse than the others - they're not. But they're certainly not pristine anymore when it comes to reliability.

    Inaccurate but not surprisingly so. Check your figures for US recalls in 2006. Except DCX the other 3 went down significantly. There is no way to judge any trends by recall numbers because it's a different environment now than 10 yrs ago, before Ford/Firestone. Cars are getting safety recalls on cupholders and carpeting.

    This article from the Detroit News will give you a good view of what the real situation is.
    Big 4 Recalls over the last 3 years
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's a bit worse than that.

    I think you would like it to be but it is not. It's just a different environment than pre-2000.
  • Acceleration from 0-60mph means little in real world use. What means more is passing capability, say from 25mph to 50mph or more, where acceleration in those ranges is needed to pass the slow pokes on the back rodes of America.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    It's just a different environment than pre-2000.

    I'm not sure about the recall numbers - I've seen different websites report different numbers for Toyota for 2006. But if you're suggesting that the reason Toyota has had so many recalls the last 2 years is because the rules changed, you're mistaken. Transmission failures, engines dying at highway speeds and steering failures are not a result of a changing environment. These would have been recalled prior to 2000.

    Again, I'm not saying it's terrible, just that Toyota's reputation for stellar quality is a bit tarnished and they're not bulletproof like they used to be.
  • This is where I appreciate manual transmissions. Merging onto a highway going from 35 to 70 mph with urgency is just a quick drop into 3rd gear, no waiting for the transmission to figure out I want the car to go faster now.
    I can make do with less horsepower because it is actually accessible.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'll tell you what, get stuck behind that idiot that stops at the end of a highway entrance ramp and then tell me that 0-60 times means nothing because you don't 'drag race', or maybe you have to comfortably pass that semi on a 2 lane road and you need to get from 40 to whatever as quickly as possible and then me that it is a static measurement called torque that allows you to do it. Follow this up with a little research into all the cars of this group in terms of acceleration times and what you will find is a direct correlation (HP/lb) between how well the cars in this group (and any other ) can do both of these kind of things and the HP (not torque) there is available to do it. Torque has a lot to do with how well a car drives but little to do with how well it moves.
    We have been thru this before and don't see any need to rehash this but I really think you need to buy a diesel and then wonder why getting from 0-60 (or passing that semi) has suddenly become a real problem.
    In terms of the safety value of things like handling and a good set of brakes, you are right they don't matter much (I guess because none of us do much swerving around telephone poles) - UNTIL, of course, you need them, and that could only be a difference between life and death.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    There are now 6 of 6 midsized family sedans in the row 5 homes I live in, all with V6 engines. No 4-cids in this size class on my block! All from the big 3 of Japanese car manufacturers.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    maybe because the 'price' paid in FE is shrinking and these 150hp (or so) 4 bangers have a tougher time moving 3300 lbs.?
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    But, Accords and Camrys don't have a lock on "tons of miles in their old age." I have an '85 SAAB 900 that is now over 200K without any major engine work. The only powertrain-related work was a new clutch at 150K. In 22 years of ownership, the only repair items replaced were: brakes, tires, shocks (doesn't use struts, thank goodness), belts, mufflers, plugs (all standard consumables), battery (I'm on my 3rd), one starter motor, one power steering pump, one water pump, the aforementioned clutch, and a few ancillary light bulbs - that's it. It's on its original timing chain. Not too bad, I'd say.

    With some exceptions, I think a number of cars today can go a long time or way without major maintenance, if - and, only if - they are maintained correctly from a normal preventive maintenance point-of-view.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    You want high mileage?
    300K+(estimated) 1975 Cutlass Supreme
    235K - Volvo 164E
    270K - Volvo 240
    180K - Buick LeSabre
    170K - Buick Park ave(sister's)
    365K - Toyota 4Runner(current commuter vehicle for me)

    All are still registered and running in California except for the 164E.

    Now, as for power, it's useless if it comes at the price of a massive weight increase. Check out the BMW 3 series weight versus what it was 20 years ago. 800 lbs difference. There's a real reason many peolpe prefer to find a late 80s/early90s M3 instead of the boated mess we have now. Mustangs are simmilar. The old mid 90s model was small, fast, and cheap to modify. The new one - is a joke. Way too heavy and too much money for what you get.

    What I want to see is a 2800-3000lb sedan with a decent I6/V6 engine in it, RWD, and stickshift.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    But if you're suggesting that the reason Toyota has had so many recalls the last 2 years is because the rules changed, you're mistaken

    But it is precisely what I'm saying. There was a Highlander safety recall last year for carpeting! There was a Durango safety recall last year for cupholders! I'm not denying that serious problems like the Sequoia/Tundra ball joint issue are not occuring, they are.

    But the environment has changed. The NHTSA is not going to be blind-sided again like it was with Ford/Firestone. If there is a risk - recall everything. Let the manufacturers sort it out.

    That article from the Detroit News referenced the NHTSA numbers for each of the last 3 years.
  • What I want to see is a 2800-3000lb sedan with a decent I6/V6 engine in it, RWD, and stickshift.
    Yeah, I think BMW E30/E36s have the lock on that with RWD. A 90-93 Accord with an H22 would be a lot of fun. If you just want a RWD with an I6/V6, there are a number of 70s domestic products with your name on it. ;)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    I agree the mfrs and NHTSA are more likely to do a recall. But it sounded like you were implying THAT was the reason for the increased Toyota recalls, which I don't agree with.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Why do I think we are getting pretty far afield of midsized sedans, gee I dunno where I would get that idea. :sick:

    Also, let's get away from the recent personal insinuations while we are getting back on topic. No one has to read nor respond to any post that seems senseless, out of line or otherwise inappropriate. It would be a good thing for keeping this discussion open to keep that in mind and there are a number of posters here who need to think about that. Seriously.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    For a bit above 3000lbs, and with max fun to drive factor... WRX or Evo. Its AWD though in both.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I agree the mfrs and NHTSA are more likely to do a recall. But it sounded like you were implying THAT was the reason for the increased Toyota recalls, which I don't agree with.

    Responding in another forum to stay on topic..

    recall response
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "Am I missing something here? I think I'm completely missing the point... a little help?"

    The whole point here is someone CHOSE something other than the same old same old Camry/Accord.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Take a look at Mycarspace http://www.carspace.com/scape2/Albums/My%20Toy/

    I added a sunroof deflector and a rock guard to the front. I will probably switch to a high quality bra when they become available. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Funny how ten years ago, the V6 Accord was the top engine offered (170 hp on the old SAE guidelines (and weighed about 3,200 lbs). Now, with 170 hp (on the old guidelines, 166hp on the new), and 3,100 lbs, and an extra gear in the automatic, the 4-cylinders are faster.

    4 MPG is 4 MPG (which translates into 400 extra miles every 100 gallons - substantial to me), and a car capable 8.0 seconds to 60 MPH is more than enough to move along safely, regardless. Today's so-called "tougher time" are yesterday's top-of-the-line.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The whole point here is someone CHOSE something other than the same old same old Camry/Accord.

    Ok... most driver's do this. I guess I didn't realize it warranted a post. I guess I should've posted that my father bought something other than an Accord, eh? Or my boss, or my aunt, or my best friend, or his girlfriend, or...

    C'mon scape, we know you hate the Accord and Camry, but do you have to constantly make attempts to deride them? It'd be different if it brought something new to the conversation, but can you honestly say that it did by posting that?

    Anybody can physically open their eyes in a parking lot and see that people DO choose vehicles other than Camry and Accord. You don't have to force your hate of HonYota on us AGAIN. We get it, man! :shades:
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Today's so-called "tougher time" are yesterday's top-of-the-line.

    Exactly. Faster, more fuel efficient while being heavier, safer and easier to maintain.

    We've added numerous air bags, ABS, VSA (et al), TPMS, 100 mile engines, emissions reducers, safety cages etc to already great cars. They can handle the added weight.
This discussion has been closed.