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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • jlindhjlindh Posts: 282
    Time to repeat high school physics, dtownfb. Also, the car that left the scene was the car racing against the Mustang.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,046
    Moving. Not moving. Makes no difference in which car sustains which force. It's the relative velocities involved that matters.
  • dtownfbdtownfb Posts: 2,915
    jlindh: thanks I had enough physics in college which is why I predicted that one car was standing still (the article was not clear).

    imazda: You are right about the relative speed. If the car wa still and was hit at 40 mph, the relative speed is 40 mph. If both cars were going 40 mph, the relative speed is 80 mph.

    Even if this was not the case, I'm still not sure why he sited this article as blaming Honda for not keeping its occupants safe. Too many factors in this type of accident. Let's blame the right person, the driver of the Mustang. Hopefully they charge this person with vehicular homicide.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Follow-up to the latest discussion:

    Govt wants automakers to have crash ratings on the sticker for new cars starting in 08MY I believe. The ratings, I am assuming, would come from NHTSA (which the Sonata received perfect scores :) )
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    If they do that, I hope they put both the NHTSA and IIHS ratings on the car. Although that could be a problem because there is often a long delay in publishing the IIHS scores for new models.
  • Personally though I have no statistics just what I've seen on the streets, the automakers are building cars more these days to crush down to absorb impacts. Everyone talks about safety cages and though that is a good thing and started years ago with unitized body frame construction, I just feel that we are seeing thinner and thinner steel being used. Somebody pointed out on on earlier post that most of the cars look like too much plastic well you're right. In an effort to reduce weight most of materials comprising cars today is light metal aluminum and plastic or composite materials. This is going to continue well into the future of vehicles to up the gas mileage figures. My complaint is how these companies go about reducing that weight by protecting the people in the vehicles less and less. I posted several weeks back that Honda was the first of the foreign car manufacturers to drop the five mph bumper standards when the feds made the mistake of easing the regulations. Not Toyota, Not Nissan or Mazda or any other company I am aware of. This and what I have seen on the streets for many years angers me that Honda on the premise of producing quality cars was first to say, hey safety, let's short cut it and make a buck doing so. This is all I am saying. Post after post on here where Honda religionists swear by the Honda legacy but ignore the truth. I know these posts will be deleted but at this point in the conversation I don't care.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I am no Honda fan but, again, bumpers have very little (if anything) to do with protecting occupants. The standards are mostly about reducing insurance costs for property damage.

    To the extent bumpers are a problem, the bigger issue is bumpers not lining up...many SUV and truck bumpers are too high and go over the top of car bumpers.

    Your impressions seem to be the exact opposite of reality. Cars have gotten heavier and safer, not lighter and more hazardous.

    IIHS says: The designs of passenger vehicles have been improving for years, becoming more protective of their occupants in crashes.

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr081006.html
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    5 MPH bumpers, if I'm not mistaken, refers to the ability for the bumpers to not need $ repair $ in a 5 MPH impact, not their ability to protect occupants at 5 MPH etc...

    Post after post on here where Honda religionists swear by the Honda legacy but ignore the truth. I know these posts will be deleted but at this point in the conversation I don't care.

    Why would the posts be deleted? It didn't look like you posted anything out-of-line (although I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, it was still seemingly respectable from my perspective)...

    I'm a little lost (A LOT of posts have been made since I last looked at this forum...) so forgive my being naive please ;)
  • I used the bumpers to illustrate that Honda was the first car company out there to relax safety standards. I know full well the limits of a car bumper. Do you perceive me as an idiot? I would not presume you were. As I stated many times here (most of them deleted) that I work in EMS and have seen what I perceive to have been more carnage in Hondas on the whole than other makes of cars. The Mustang I mentioned hit this Honda Accord head on. The Mustang was probably traveling in excess of 90 when it hit the Accord coming in the opposite direction on a 4 line in the city road with a turning lane only dividing it. The Accord according inside sources were traveling 45 mph from the opposite direction on head on impact. The passengers in the Mustang, a car weighing approximately the same as the Accord was totaled up to the windshield. The passenger compartment remained pretty much intact. The Accord had significant passenger compartment intrusion. In terms of construction I believe the Mustang was capable of maintaining integrity better than the Honda. Sue me. I am going by facts as presented by the people who rescued the two survivors of the Mustang. I have seen several other small to mid size cars involved in similar accidents and they didn't fair well either. I just get tired of extricating the non living from Hondas. I don't want to say the Ford was better than the Honda but all things being equal shouldn't the people in the Mustang have also expired?(yeah this one is going to be deleted too. so read it while you can.) The previous posts were deleted by the host because they said I got too graphic in my arguement over the safety issue. I work in EMS. Been doing so now for 30 years. Sorry I draw off life experiences here not supposition.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    The 5 mph bumper standard is not a safety standard--it's to limit $$$ damage in a low-speed crash.

    As for Honda relaxing safety standards... Honda is the first carmaker in the U.S. to equip all of its cars, from the cheapest Fit to the most expensive Odyssey, with at least six airbags and ABS. So why beat on them for relaxing safety standards?

    Here is another tragic real-life case that shows it is impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from a single incident: an Accord and Mustang hit head-on. The driver of the Mustang is killed. The driver of the Accord suffers two broken legs.

    http://www.wcpo.com/news/2006/local/01/31/fatalax.html
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I used the bumpers to illustrate that Honda was the first car company out there to relax safety standards. I know full well the limits of a car bumper. Do you perceive me as an idiot?

    No, and it was not my intention to make you feel like I was insulting you (and I don't think it seemed like I did that, to be honest). You don't have to be so defensive, we're all on the same team (car consumers) here. I'm not trying to grill you as if on a witness stand.

    Most of our points are, however, that there are way too many individual factors in a car crash to determine if a car is as safe as another one in an instance; that's why the IIHS and NTHSA do strict experimental testing procedures, with as much control over each situation as possible.

    Sorry I draw off life experiences here not supposition.

    And nobody here is condemning you for it, as you have a firsthand look at crashes daily. The point stands however that there are way WAY too many variables in particular car wrecks to deem one as safe and another as unsafe, even though you see crashes daily, I highly doubt that the particular models of vehicles, point(s) of impact, speeds of the vehicles, and conditions have ever exactly duplicated themselves. Maybe once or twice in 30 years. (Example being say a 1994 Taurus T-boning a 1997 Dodge Ram where the Ram was going 25MPH, the Taurus, 40 MPH; exact impact at the rear wheel of the Ram, airbags opening in the Taurus, and only one injury)...

    The thing is, the IIHS CAN institute such controlled accidents, and that's why it is hard for some of us to believe that the Honda is as unsafe as you say, because it got top scores in all the ratings (except for not having "active" head-restraints as in the Sonata and Camry, etc)... The cars themselves hold up quite well. Ask me about my guardrail collision in my 1996 LX. I walked away unharmed (save for a now-chronic stiff back) from a 40 MPH frontal/sliding sideways hit on a guardrail.
  • Don't know if anyone remembers this message, but I was wondering how does a Acura TSX compare with a Honda accord, altima, sonata and etc. It looks like a nice car is has great reviews here http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/acura_tsx_2006/4721/model_user_reviews.html

    Thanks and God Bless.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    More expensive, less power (than V6 models), smaller inside, great handling, very nice interior. Probably closer to a Jetta GLI than one of these mid-sized family sedans, although you could come close with the Mazda6s for less money (but not as nice an interior).
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    And yet more than twice as many people choose the Corolla over the Sonata every day and every week. While the Sonata stays in the 'under $20K price range that is the competition.. the Corolla/Civic.

    Buyers normally class themselves by their budgets; i.e. '$12000 vehicle' .... 'about $15000' ... 'under $20000' ... 'in the $25000 to $30000 range'.

    Thus when they go to shop they look for vehicles in these ranges. A $15000 buyer is going to look at the vehicles in that range. Those would be the Corolla, Civic and Sonata. It's the way the buyers think.

    A $25000 buyer is going to look for vehicles in that range only.
  • I'm glad you posted that backy, maybe I will get over my paranoia with Hondas. I'm sorry another tragedy had to end that way but it frustrates me to know end when I see posts where people who own Hondas question the safety of my car. The fact is none of us are safe from reckless and careless drivers unless we all purchase tanks.Peace ;)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    That may be true for some type of buyers, not for others, however. Some look for roominess, some look for value, some look for V6, etc.

    While I am not disagreeing the cross-shop of the Sonata and Corolla/Civic, but based on price, cross-shop can also happen between different segements, (i.e. Sonata vs. Colorado) so going by price is probably not be the best/closest comparison for some buyers.

    It should be noted Sonata competitors are still those including Camry, Fusion, Altima, Accord, etc, with Camry/Accord/Altima in the higher range, and Fusion in the lower range along the Sonata.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Some look for roominess, some look for value, some look for V6, etc.

    I think most people have a certain "spending limit" in mind (20k, 25k, 30k), when shopping for a car. Then other (personal) criteria enter into the equation. One guy may shop only certain brands, and will settle for a smaller car, if it's a brand he likes, and under the spending limit. Another guy may shop any make, and will buy the roomiest car that is under the cap. Everyone has their own priorities.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Hyundai cannot sell their cars for the same price (ie market price) and terms and conditions as Honda and Toyota.(ie 3 year warranty) They have had a huge rebate promotion going on as well. So I guess what is being said, is all cars in this segment either sell for huge discounts or have huge rebates. That does make sense.

    In the end it's the market which determines the correct price level for a vehicle no matter the content or capability. In the end while there may be imperfections in any shortterm view the market rights everything in due course.

    At the present, and Hyundai/Ford recognize this, their respective entries in this field have to be sold at a price lower than the Camry/Accord.

    Noone at this time is going to pay $25000 for any Sonata. That is a fact. It's the market speaking and the marketing people in Hyundai and in Ford have the pulse of this segment at hand every day and week.

    Does anyone think for a minute that if Hyundai could sell their very capable V6 Sonata's for $25000 that they wouldn't? Hyundai and to a lesser extent Ford and Nissan are just practicing good business sense by pricing their vehicles at the level at which they will move. It's nothing more than recognizing what the 'market will bear'.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,046
    >there are way too many individual factors in a car crash to determine if a car is as safe as another one in an instance;

    Exactly right. That's why I love it when someone picks a light, thinly built car because it gets great ratings in crash testing.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    True, but as elroy noted above most buyers limit themselves by their budgets. A $15000 buyer may 'look' at a CamCord but will not seriously consider a new one. He or she will consider a Sonata or Civic or Corolla.

    Most buyers classify themselves in this manner. As in everything there are the exceptions.

    In theory the Sonata, Camry, Accord, Altima, Fusion are competitors but it's not so in the majority of daily decisions being done beforehand ( over the kitchen table ) by the buyers.
This discussion has been closed.