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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    would be interested to know how edmunds came up with these numbers - a definite indicator of accident avoidance capability. Would be willing to bet that the lower finishing cars were handicapped by VSC? The enthusiast mags will generally try to do their best to turn it off for testing, the consumer mags will leave it on. Can't imagine, for example, that the Sonata would've finished so low except for its std. VSC/TRAC and the 'softer' Camry, as is Toyota's practrice, gets a system that can't be disabled.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    from what I understand, Hyundai is cutting back 'sales' to the rental lots - which is a good thing.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    ...and last year is that the plant in AL is now up and running instead of being in 'start up' mode.

    Hyundai correctly noted it's own failings in the past and it's relatively low retail volume but it still had to fill a plant to a minimum operating level. If they knew for example that they needed 10000 units a month going over the line but they could only count on 5000 to 12000 units depending on seasonal demand they needed to offload the non-retail units somewhere.
    .. ultra low pricing similar to fleet pricing to get real retail buyers in these new much better vehicles;
    .. fleet sales to fill the gaps.

    This costs money ( in profits foregone ) so it's factored into the startup costs of the new plant. I'd guess that the plant and the product line broke even in the first year. But Hyundai is not in it for the charity toward US buyers. It's a huge for-profit operation.

    So now the first year is up, the plant apparently operates very well and puts out a good product so it's up to the Commercial Department and the dealers to get bodies into the showrooms and out the doors. Make profits like the others are making.
  • SEL V6 Ford Fusion 64.2

    wonder how the AWD Fusion will do in this test. Didn't it beat the Accord in Fusionchallenge.

    Legacy GT Wagon 63.9 (4-cyl, 250 hp)
    someone mentioned why didn't Ford include the Subi in the compo, cause it has AWD. Well Fusion beats it according to edmunds. As always. Honda comes out near the top, what's new? Either Honda is that good or these Mags have some heavy vested interest in Honda.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    The other thing to consider is that the Alabama plant has a fixed capacity. At first, all it produced was the Sonata. Now it builds the Sonata and the new Santa Fe. Maybe what is happening is that Hyundai has made a decision to improve profit-per-vehicle even if that means cutting volume on the Sonata and other cars. The average selling price of a Santa Fe is higher than that of a Sonata--more profit in the Santa Fe maybe? Also note how Hyundai has cut way back on rebates across its lineup since last year. No more $3000 in rebates on the Sonata, and rebates on the Santa Fe, Elantra, Accent, etc. are also down from recent levels.

    I remember many posts in various discussions, including this one, noting how Hyundai should cut sales to fleets and raise its prices. Now that they're doing that, they get criticized for doing it.

    Anyone notice that Honda is propping up Accord sales with large manufacturer-to-dealer rebates and subsidized lease deals? Since the Accord is such a great mid-sized car, why do they need to do that?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Yes, ABS can help avoid an accident. I'll probably want it in my next car, years from now (may not have a choice, LOL) but I don't think it's as important in avoiding accidents as traction and stability control.

    I wouldn't pay ten cents for traction control in an accident avoidance maneuver. Stability control is different, though...

    You probably don't have to deal with snow/ice very often in Birmingham

    Sadly, we are on out longest streak without measurable snow (0.1 inches or greater) in recorded history (since the late 1880s). We haven't seen snow around here since January 2000.

    Send us some please! Snow missed us to the north yesterday, and forecasts are putting snow in Montgomery (south) Saturday. I'm frustrated!
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    germancarfan1 and meateater are well-know Hyundai haters on this board.

    Yes, Hyundai still sells the Tiburon, in fact, the 2007 is a new generation, albeit a redesign, not entirely new.

    Hyundai's appeal is not only low pricing, but quality at a low price, exactly analogous to the initial Honda and Toyota marketing and pricing strategy in the USA.

    I'm a Honda, SAAB, and Hyundai owner, and the new 2006 Hyundai I bought for my wife for Christmas 2005 has had absolutely no warranty claims, or any problems whatsoever since purchase. In fact, it's the first new car I've ever purchased that was, and still is, totally glitch free in every respect. The same can't be said for our Honda. It had 3 warranty claims within the first 9 months, including replacement of the ECU.
  • jimmy81jimmy81 Posts: 170
    Hyundai's "quality" is nowhere near that of Honda's. Better than before, but Hyundai's still dealing with many issues that aren't reflected in these JD Power type inital quality survey gimmicks.

    4-5 years down the line is what I'm most concerned with. My brother's Elantra is what he bought it as - cheap transportation - but the comparison to Honda, as he points out, is a major stretch. Its 3 years old and doing OK, but has numerous fit and finish and noise issues.

    But he bought the car because it was cheap but decent. I agree that's the sector Hyundai fills.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Hyundai's appeal is low pricing. Obviously that's not enough appeal. They should change the name of the car. Hyundai is a quirky name....quirky cars too.

    I thought I was the only one proposing a name change for Hyundai. It would make sense to me since 'what's in a name?' is huge for marketing purposes. And Hyundai is an odd name.
  • So someone who merely pastes Hyundai sales figures for Jan 07 (which happen to be down) is considered a "Hyundai hater?" Had I posted Honda sales figures (which are coincidently up), would I be a "honda lover?"
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    When you think about it, names like Toyota (is it a toy or a real car?), Honda (wasn't that a movie?), Nissan (rhymes with a rather crude phrase), Suzuki ('nuff said), Kia (is it a car company or is this a martial arts thing?), Mitsubishi (we need more syllables!!), Audi (not an innie), Scion (what the heck is THAT, and can you pronounce it correctly?), and many others are "odd" also. From a myopic perspective anyway.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    "Had I posted Honda sales figures (which are coincidently up)"

    Where do you see Honda sales being up? We went over this, it's called DSR, there was an extra day of selling.

    http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1000?mid=2007020140906&mime=asc

    I see -1.7%, tell me if you see something different.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    "So someone who merely pastes Hyundai sales figures for Jan 07 (which happen to be down) is considered a "Hyundai hater?""

    Beacuse time after time, you have isolated your negativities on Hyundai and posted one-sided comments. You could have also posted sales figures from other manuf., such as GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc to show the comparison, instead of isolating one automaker. If my memory serves correct, January was a bad month for most automakers in the US.

    Also, you have always included Kia with Hyundai to show their inferiority. There are reasons why you didn't include Kia in your original post, just like the same reasons you didn't post Hyundai's went they were up or had something that should be praised and contributed in the industry.
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,018
    We all have our preferences and that's not a crime, so let's keep the comments about the cars and not the people.

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I guess, but there isn't another word or name in the English language that begins with a 'Hyun' combination of syllables. I think it hinders acceptance of their products.
  • I think it hinders acceptance of their products.

    I think that's ludicrous.

    I bet that when people first saw the words Honda, Toyota, Datsun, Mitsubishi, etc., they may have thought it strange at first, but it was their products that made them accepted, and their names aren't so strange anymore, aren't they?

    Hyundai (and Kia) can be named whatever they want. It's their products that'll either help or hurt their acceptance.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    The names are what they are and there's really nothing to be gained by arguing about whether they are or are not what they should be.

    Let's get back to the actual features and attributes of the vehicles - whatever they are named - and move on.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    What do you think about this line of discussion grad? Want to go back to discussing engines now? :P
  • Lets go back to the driving dynamics of fwd cars with front weight bias...
    In performance driving with a FWD car, typically its a matter of aiming the front wheels where you want the car to go and pushing the gas. A limited slip (a real one, like a Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec-V or an Integra Type-R) allows the driver to get on the power sooner, helping corner exit speeds. Traction control just cuts power to the wheels which will lower corner exit speeds.
    Corner entry on a front wheel drive car typically involves hard braking for weight transfer, occasionally trail braking to help rotation. It is reasonably easy to achieve oversteer in a FWD car, either by trail braking or jumping off the gas in mid-corner.
    I think most of the Stability Controls will do everything they can to eliminate oversteer while reducing power at the same time. I think plowing (understeering) off the road (slowly) is how they see safety.
    I am very curious to see how these systems adapt in snow and ice, in addition to a performance driving environment.
  • I've read enough propaganda from Car & Friver to last me a lifetime. They always pick the Honda Accord as tops amongst midsize sedans and seldom get it right. There are better midsizers out there. Witness Consumer Reports unbiased selection of the Nissan Altima as the new king of the road in midsize sedans. Quite simply, Nissan has the most efficient non hybrid 4 cylinder powertrain in the industry. Only Toyota has a more efficient 6 cyinder. However, Nissan wins the best ride/handing compromise for both the 4 cylinder & 6 cylinder power plants. This new benchmark Altima also has better steering & brake feel than the others. The one thing that stood out in the Car & Drver test was exterior styling. They rated the Accord & Altima as even. Not in your wildest Honda dreams! The current Accord has one of the most boring designs in all of automobiledom. Additionally, C & D stated the Altima had epa estimates of 23/29, when it is acutally 26/34. Evidently, C & D was using the '02-06 Altima epa estimates. One other item they misquoted was the cargo space. The '07 Altima does NOt have 17.9 cu ft, but 15.3 cu ft. The bottom line is that Car & Driver failed to get even the car manufacturer sepcifications right, much less the more subjective criterion, i.e. exterior styling.

    Steve
  • I guess Consumer Reports forgot to update their website?...

    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/best-in-class/family-friendly-vehicles/f- amilyfriendlyvehicles.htm

    Lists Accord as best in class for the family sedan category.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I agree the new Altima is a sweet car. But let's do this comparison again when the NEW Accord arrives in 7 months. You're comparing a new model to a 5-6 year old design.
  • I just wrote to Edmunds and asked them about the VSC when they do the slalom testing. My guess is that they leave it on for all cars that have it. The Mazda6 doesn't have it, not sure if there are any others.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I am very curious to see how these systems adapt in snow and ice, in addition to a performance driving environment.
    your suspicions on what the stability control system actually does (eliminate oversteer conditions) by reducing power and applying the appropriate braking is right on the mark I suspect. How these systems interfere with 'performance driving' is already starting to be apparent with these limitations seen on the skidpad and in avoidance (lane change) tests. As far as snow and ice are concerned, I guess those effects are most apparent when you are attempting to maintain momentum, often at a ragged edge of control, but the car 'decides' it doesn't want to move by doing the same sort of thing, cutting throttle and slowing steering responses. And yes give me a true LSD as opposed to an electronic traction control which does nothing but cut power to the offending wheel[s].
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,341
    Isn't the new Civic SI equipped with a "real" limited slip differential>?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    the Mazda6 should logically have the highest speed capabilities in a test like this, a slightly smaller more nimble design with an appropriately tight suspension to match. The fact that it doesn't may also have something to do with the standard traction control which can also cut power during manuevers like this. Judging by those results, BTW, I agree with you, they must be leaving it on, on those cars so equipped.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    sounds like they haven't updated their own website and haven't yet included included that test of the new Altima in the 03-07 CR issue. The Altima 2.5 is ranked ahead of the 4th place Honda 4 banger (something that suprised me). And the Altima 3.5 is rated at the same 89 points as the Passat 3.6 and the Honda EX V6 - all tied for first. The actual ratings for a number of these cars appear in post 11195.
    Did get a chance to look at one the other day incidentally and the most apparent difference in the car (vs. my 03) besides the shiftless tranny is the quality and fit/finish of the interior. Could be an Accord! Evaluations of styling are certainly subjective and generally not worthy of debate, but IMO it is a good looking vehicle as well.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,341
    My prediciton is it will have 270 HP with 22/32 type gas mileage, and still be a 3.0 or 3.2 tops.
  • They tested a 2.5s which i think has no full size spare. Without the full size spare the altima has 17.9 cu ft. The full size spare is standard on the 3.5 which has 15.3 cu ft.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I think your prediction is likely right on given that the Nissan and Camry already are at that number. To match the Toyota's FE, they may have to add some camshafts, some sophisticated intake and exhaust valve programming, as well as some transmission control modifications. Would require essentially a new engine design and if Honda does that, hold onto your hats!
This discussion has been closed.